The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

[Occasional Sage]

I'm going to make myself a datum in this disagreement.

I have role played now for 29 years, in I-have-lost-track-what-all systems. I have never played in a D&D campaign set in anything like TV, but would be very interested as either a player our a DM.

[Yahzi]

Tippyverse is the only D&D setting I know that at least looks like 3e magic has existed for more than five minutes. NO OTHER has ever looked at the rules and said "Okay, blank page; what happens when I apply all of those?"

This!

I tried to do that with World of Prime, but I had to change a few rules. Mostly involving a) sticking to core, and b) changing the level advancement table to look more like AD&D.

[Cor1]

It's standard procedure for the wizards I play, actually. My method is kinda extensive... Genesis, then Genesis again. Hide the first under the most powerful dissimulation spell. Cover in eveerything, including AMFs and Field Of Conversions that don't interact together, but will nova every spellcaster that's not you. The second is just as protected, but not Dissimulated. (The spell I'm speaking of is the one that puts the targets in temporal stasis. Do that to the whole demiplane where your actual body rests. Magic Jar a Clone of a Clone of yourself before casting Dissimulate.

The clone then grabs its original (clone of you, in case you end up dead anyway somehow) and takes up residence in the second demiplane, from where he adventures in Ethereal form from a Lesser Planar Bound Nightmare.

I don't abuse of Genesis, even. I ask the DM if I can change the time flow, and if allowed, speed it up by like four, so I can regain spells in a reasonable time, but not instantaneously recharge.

And then, once this little buff-list setup is in place, I can go adventure with my unkillable Wizard. "Death is now for other people." It's not paranoia if you're habitually summoning denizens of the Outer Planes : there is may be part of Hell with a grudge against you. Or worse, a part of the Heavens.

It's not paranoia either, when most combat begin with something like "Okay, everyone make four Fort saves DC 40 against lose." A town Wizard can very well manage a city while in astrally projected by a possessed clone. It's a valid adventuring insurance, too. Insta-lose effects are too common at those levels.

All this to say, I don't see why the Tippyverse wizards wouldn't all have similar setups, and simply come back to their Prime Material because it's their home? There's no point in wielding Ultimate Arcane Power ^TM if there's no one to see it, for some. Others may be more interested in solo research, but they'll never get as far as those who exchange information, and will probably never level up anyway. Some may be interested in good old-fashioned political power, and simply take it. Some will be better at it than others, and the ones who endure will be the good ones anyway (as defined by "good at keeping their place").

There are a lot of motivations for adventuring, even if you're GODing in GODmode. Maybe even more incentive to take risks. It makes sure your character endures. In literature, there's always those "didn't find the corpse" moments... well, you're assured to do that every time.

[Quellian-dyrae]

Snip.

Oh don't get me wrong, if that's the level of danger a character can expect to face at any given time (especially the times it least expects it), then yeah, that's not paranoia. I was working more with the assumption that, for your typical NPC wizard in a TV style setting, such levels of danger wouldn't be the norm. They're living in a magically-fortified city guarded by a large army of golems backed by skilled wizards, and have enough personal power to anticipate, escape, or outright destroy most threats themselves if it comes to that.

Now, if the whole "Wizard's Cold War" thing is played up, and any wizard who lets its guard down for even a moment can expect to be utterly annihilated before the surprise round even begins, then it's another matter entirely.

[LeshLush]

Man of Fire has a few times made the claim that there won't be any bards in the Tippyverse to spread the fame of the heroes, which is an idea I find to be patently ridiculous. There are bards everywhere.

The TV is a society where everyone is provided with food, shelter, and clothing for free. Most people probably don't even work unless they feel like it, because they don't have to. If a group of people have all of their needs and comforts met, what could they possibly want? To be entertained.

The bards of the TV aren't just wandering minstrels begging for coin at the local in. They're a lot more like modern rock stars. A city is filled with hundreds of thousands if not millions of rich people with too-much leisure time, which is exactly the infrastructure and entertainment industry needs.

This is also an explanation for why the PCs would want to adventure. There is crazy stuff out in the wilds. Bored rich dudes probably pay all kinds of money for ancient artifacts, and stories about your harrowing escape from the crazy tribe of gnoll zealots are worth incredible amounts of fame and prestige. And in a society where everyone's needs are met, the real wealth is prestige, which is sometimes found in odd forms.

It's like in Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, where most animals are extinct or endangered. People buy synthetic animals as status symbols, but a real live animal is an almost priceless showpiece that only the most important people in the world can claim to own. Yes, a create food and water trap can make you a steak, but imagine what kind of a status symbol a steak carved off of a dire bull carcass would be, especially if you went out into the wilds and killed the bull yourself.

[Craft (Cheese)]

But basically taking only the people you care about and otherwise cutting yourself off from the entire rest of reality?

For what it's worth, who doesn't want to do that sometimes? Besides, they're not completely cut off. They can still explore the planes through proxies and, honestly, if you can walk around in expendable proxy bodies why the hells would you put your real one at risk?

[Quellian-dyrae]

For what it's worth, who doesn't want to do that sometimes? Besides, they're not completely cut off. They can still explore the planes through proxies and, honestly, if you can walk around in expendable proxy bodies why the hells would you put your real one at risk?

No that's fair enough. Again, if your life is commonly at that kind of risk, and you have those kind of defenses, that's another story.

I'm basically just working on the assumption that the reason not every mage does it, is because not every mage feels that it's necessary. That being the case, the ones that do probably either lead very dangerous lives or are just very paranoid.

[Acanous]

How about a setting where I can kill a wizard without having to play something outright ridiculous?

If that's what you want, you're plaing the wrong game, amigo.
You're not going to kill a Wizard without playing something equally ridiculous in the Realms, Eberron, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, or TV. There's only certain things that CAN threaten a wizard, and chief among them is "Another Wizard".

[Man on Fire]

If that's what you want, you're plaing the wrong game, amigo.
You're not going to kill a Wizard without playing something equally ridiculous in the Realms, Eberron, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, or TV. There's only certain things that CAN threaten a wizard, and chief among them is "Another Wizard".

Let us not dig into how horribly unbalanced this game is, okay?

[Aeryr]

Let us not dig into how horribly unbalanced this game is, okay?

It's not D&D but it's d20 and quite good, why don't you try thieves world? I love that setting.

On the TV discussion, I seriously believe that if you are DMing at that setting and your players want to change something. It should be extremely difficult for them, not necessarily completely impossible.

For example: a party of high level characters might learn how to activate and deactivate a teleportation circle from an old city that was paranoid enough to ban all teleportation, to the point that they ended damaging their teleportation circle, and eventually perished (or turned into monsters). Once the party can activate or deactivate the teleportation circle, they have several options. They might want to establish a trading post, "neutral" to the other cities, allowing high quality traders to rent their space to work together. They could decide to turn into "crazy ecologist" teleporting wild monsters to other cities trying to bring the TV to a more natural setting. Or they could be terrorist/ninjas/pirates/whatever flash attacking cities before teleporting away, depending on their tactics of choice they might want to disguise themselves as members of another city (all those clothes produced by traps look the same and should be easy to identify) or use stealth, or just plain old terror.

That party can get a lot of impact in the world, it might come at a late level, that's true.

How can a lower level influence the TV? Perhaps the teleportation circle is the best way to travel, but it is not the only one and is certainly checked. An intelligent party may offer caravans through the wastes, acting as wandering bodyguards or smugglers. That could lead to a western feeling to the setting.

The TV doesn't encourage on foot travel, specially big groups, any army would be detected. But a party of PCs? They can have abilities to be undetectable. They can hide magic or naturally. They can survive the wild monsters. And they can become goddamned smugglers breaking the dry law of the TV.

If you run a game in the TV and your players want to affect the setting. Don't just say it's impossible. Say, it's going to be hard as hell, because you are not dealing with stupid lvl 1 warrior npcs. But if they can find a niche to fill, and they want to go for it. Just have fun.

It's a game.

It's a setting.

Enjoy it.

Edit: BTW I really like Leshlush bard thingie.

[Hecuba]

Let us not dig into how horribly unbalanced this game is, okay?

It's not something that is easily ignored in this conversation. It's part of the premise of the setting.

Reading over your comments, they seem to boil down to "I dislike the design goals and scope implied by the Tippyverse." I'm sure you're not alone in that. As point of fact, it bears little semblance to my preferred mode of play.

The thing is, this a question of taste. The fact that I don't like the design goals of a setting does not make it poorly designed: it merely means that there can be no discourse with one who denies the premise. And criticism (at least the useful kind) is, ultimately supposed to be reasoned discourse.

This is not to say that such comments aren't valid criticisms of game design aesthetics. But when a setting presumes a design paradigm as part of that design, criticisms of the paradigm aren't cogent to the execution of the setting design itself.



To compare this to published settings:

I'm heavily in the minority, but I disagree with the design goals and scope of Planescape: I think the top end is too high and the find the pseudo-philosophical content too great a conceit.
But it's fairly clear that the design goal for Planescape is exactly what I'm objecting to- they are the very reason other people like the setting.

On the flip side, when people criticize Dragonlance, they typically mention that the setting takes too heavy a hand relative to character concepts and doesn't hold up well to high level play (though it does better now than in earlier editions).
The designers of Dragonlance point out quite readily that their design goals included a heavily story-tailored setting for lower level play. Put another way, exactly what many people find undesirable about the setting.

For the Tippyverse, the premise is that a setting exploring the logical consequences that the rules for high level play have on a setting is desirable. If you don't find that desirable, that's understandable. But unless you can accept the premise that it is desirable for the purpose of the discussion, your feedback probably isn't going to rise to the level of useful criticism of the setting itself.

Edit: grammar fail out the wazoo this morning.

[ThiagoMartell]

ThiagoMartell: There very well might be, though some wizards want to show off there powers or help the wilds, or rule a city. They have a goal, and they try to accomplish it, the wizards that live in a demiplane aren't the ones that make cities. If humans were completely sensible they wouldn't fight wars, the point is, they don't. Why do almost all the PC wizards risk there life on a daily basis? The type of wizard that does that gains levels and can create a demiplane risked his life hundreds of times, he's addicted, he can't just quit, maybe someday they will make there demiplane and stop caring, though others will follow in there footsteps.

YMMV, but to me, the wizard who stays entirely on a private demiplane, only interacting with the world through projections and proxies, is not simply playing to its intelligence...it's a sign of extreme paranoia. Like, tin foil hat, lives in a concrete bunker, only thing competing with the stockpile of guns is the stockpile of canned food levels of paranoia. Especially when you consider that this is a 17th+ level wizard, presumably in the top 1% of the top 1% of powerful beings in its setting.

I mean, I can see plenty of archwizards having them. At the very least, for a highly secure bolt-hole, or even as a primary residence. But basically taking only the people you care about and otherwise cutting yourself off from the entire rest of reality? Unless there's a serious, active threat, that just seems extreme, Int 36 or no.

You guys missed the point of my comments. A wizard with genesis can create his city in a perfectly safe, perfectly controlled environment. He wants to help people in the wilds? Take them to his demiplane, no problem. If they don't want to go, mindrape them. The genesis demiplane can get as big as he wants, he can fit anyone in there.
I'm not saying he should be hiding there. I'm saying he should be bringing their people there. Hell, being in the demiplane makes his people immune to teleport circle wars (well, the whole teleport circle war thing could be prevent with a trap of antecipate teleport anyway).
Sincerely, if we're going for the 'wizards are addicted to danger' mindset, the whole set kind of stops making sense, since it all depends on paranoid wizards. If a wizard was not completely paranoid about his defenses, someone, a mundane guy, could kill him while he slept or something to prevent him from taking over the world. Kings, merchants, lords, they would all love to avoid having their power stolen by a wizard. So unless the wizards are complete paranoids and control freaks, I simply can't see this happening.

The more I think about it, the more it seems like some stuff are like that just because the creator wants it to be that way. And that looks like any other setting out there, really, removing the one thing I thought was special about the TV.

[willpell]

I dunno when I'll have time to read this whole thread, but so far this appeals to me more than any of the published camp settings, even Eberron.

[rweird]

I'm pretty sure Genesis can only create a 180 ft. radius plane per casting, takes 1 week to cast and burns 5000 EXP. If people want to attack the demiplane they use Gate traps, they very well may be using astral projection for all there material dealings, though if they do, there Silver Cord could be cut and they're dead, if they make a city there, it doesn't get heard about really, though some wizards might not want to invite an entire city to his personal sanctuary, I still has many dangers.

For mindrape, it says in the OP:

1. It’s not a world ruled by a single all powerful wizard who mind rapes the opposition (at least not traditionally).
2. It’s not a 1984/Parinoia/Big Brother world where freedom does not exist and the government controls every facet of life

From what you said about the wizard forcing people to do what he says it sounds like the second option above is what is happening. You could change Tippyverse so it has a bunch of wizards on demiplanes waging Gate wars on each other and each has a city, though the overall design doesn't change, This could be happening instead of, or as well of what Emperor Tippy said, you could be attacked on a demiplane as well, some wizards might not bother to make a city on a demiplane and casting Genesis fifty times, it isn't completely secure, and makes a city on the material plane. All the 9th+ level wizards may be on another plane and use astral projection, though they might not cast Genesis 20 time so they can build a city there, just have a sanctuary that they try to protect to the best of there ability and protect a material city because it would be just as easy.

[ThiagoMartell]

I'm pretty sure Genesis can only create a 180 ft. radius plane per casting, takes 1 week to cast and burns 5000 EXP. If people want to attack the demiplane they use Gate traps, they very well may be using astral projection for all there material dealings, though if they do, there Silver Cord could be cut and they're dead, if they make a city there, it doesn't get heard about really, though some wizards might not want to invite an entire city to his personal sanctuary, I still has many dangers.

XP burn makes no difference in the TV, does it? We're talking about a setting with wish traps (oh, and they take longer to build than it takes to cast genesis). Also, being your own plane, you can just mess with the time trait. It takes one week in your plane, but not that much in the material plane. Planar traits make defending the plane a lot easier than in the material plane.

For mindrape, it says in the OP:

Well, for all I know, before this very thread Tippy has been saying any problem in the TV is usually solved with mindrape. Claiming it is not a mindrape setting while actively using mindrape to solve problems doesn't exactly make sense.

You could change Tippyverse so it has a bunch of wizards on demiplanes waging Gate wars on each other and each has a city, though the overall design doesn't change

If the wizards are stupid about building their own planes, yeah. I don't think they would.

All the 9th+ level wizards may be on another plane and use astral projection, though they might not cast Genesis 20 time so they can build a city there, just have a sanctuary that they try to protect to the best of there ability and protect a material city because it would be just as easy.

Not as easy, as I pointed before.

[rweird]

This is a setting with resetting wish traps as you pointed out, you can wish 1 creature/CL to anywhere with no chance of error, you start wishing astral projections of commoners covered in disjunction traps on to the enemies' plane and destroys the defenses, send in a second wave with gate traps and chain gate all the abyss. The enemy does the same to your plane, how is this different to the cities. If you do something, everyone else can to, whatever you do to protect yourself, someone undoes, protecting a city is hard, though with the magic there is, you can take out the demiplanes as easy as a city. I think they don't do this because they are int 30+, they know fighting each other leads to mutually assured destruction. I don't know about the Mindrape thing, I don't think he said that, though I don't know, and I'm not the one you should ask about what Tippy may or may not have said earlier in the thread, ask him. I don't think that it even would be needed, your the one that brought it up, if you want to make a setting like that, it's fine with me, go and do it. I won't stop you, though bringing up that Tippy might have said something with out proof isn't a way to invalidate claims to the contrary.

[ThiagoMartell]

If you do something, everyone else can to, whatever you do to protect yourself, someone undoes, protecting a city is hard, though with the magic there is, you can take out the demiplanes as easy as a city.

Dude, please, read a little about planar traits before discussing this.

I don't know about the Mindrape thing, I don't think he said that, though I don't know, and I'm not the one you should ask about what Tippy may or may not have said earlier in the thread, ask him.

I'm not asking anything. I'm informing you, he did say that.

I don't think that it even would be needed, your the one that brought it up, if you want to make a setting like that, it's fine with me, go and do it. I won't stop you, though bringing up that Tippy might have said something with out proof isn't a way to invalidate claims to the contrary.

That's not what I'm doing. And sincerely, saying 'create a setting like that' after any criticism is hardly a way to discuss a setting.
First of all, read these threads. After knowing the setting you love so much started from a derogatory term coined for answers like 'because wizards, lol' we can continue this discussion.

[rweird]

I don't know why planar traits matter

Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

Emphasis mine, I think you could have all your teleport/planar travel stopping you like, wish still will get you through. Is there something I'm missing? If you know they're coming and set up a bunch of defenses, they still can have hundreds of Chain Dispel traps covering them to stop whatever the other side throws at them, and if they fail another group comes in about a minute. The demiplanes would be in a stat of perpetual war, like the cities are. I'm not sure what your trying to prove, though if you tell me, we could cut to the chase.

I pointed out what Tippyverse, according to Emperor Tippy is, I said that if you want to run something like that, feel free, though it isn't Tippyverse by Emperor Tippy.

I believed that you were uncertain about the what Tippy said about mindrape due to the fact 'for all I know' implies uncertainty. Because he added the What Tippyverse isn't and said that, I believe that Tippyverse doesn't do that.