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Thread: An Alternate Magic System
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2011-11-08, 07:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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An Alternate Magic System
Okay, so I've been having a problem. As anyone who knows me might tell you, I have no ability to write crunch. But I had a fluff idea for a Worldbuilder project, and I wanted to see if any of the wonderful people of the Playground had suggestions for crunch.
I'd like to run the 2d6 system developed by GiantITP's own lothofkalroth (correct me if wrong), but if anyone wants to figure out a D&D variant, be my guest.
Long version spoilered.
SpoilerIn the setting I'm working on, I had the idea to reverse the age-mechanics for magic. In other words, I wanted to have magical potential reflect how old a wizard was. When a wizard starts out, he becomes very powerful, very quickly. But after some time, through aging and/or overuse of their power, the wizard loses much of his power. The balance would be that as he loses raw magical talent (spell slots?), he gains experience and skills. I wanted to try this because it would be a great incentive for wizards to go adventuring. If they don't find more knowledge, their growth is stunted and they are less powerful later on.
Example: A wizard in her early 30's doesn't need finesse as she can just bulldoze anything that stands before her (fatigue being the major limit to her potential). But another wizard nearing 80 can't do that. His life-force has grown weaker with time, reflecting his physical degeneration following middle-age. However, the older wizard has skills. In a fight between the two, the younger wizard might be able to overpower the older, but the older has far greater control over his own power. He could, for example, block or dispell many of her attacks, and counterattack with more finesse-based spells. She is a hammer, and he is a crossbow bolt.
Short Version: How would a magic system look if younger wizards had more power (spell slots/spell variety, etc) but older wizards had more skills (spell-like abilities, instant-death spells, etc) and would anybody play such a system?
SpoilerWhat we have so far:
SpoilerMagic is essentially a combination of power and knowledge. For our purposes, we follow this simple premise of life: Nothing is permanent, and Old does not naturally equal Powerful. Quite the opposite. Just as a warrior cannot rely upon the strength of his youth forever, so must a wizard come to rely on his training and ingenuity as he ages. People's capabilities wane over time while their knowledge and experience (hopefully) rise.
Thus, the following has been established:
All Magic-Users require Mana Points to cast spells. This is gained by the equation: (Con Mod +5) * (100-[Age Rounded Down]) /10).
Thus, a 40 year old Mage with +3 CON will have 48 MP to spend on spells. MP renews after an 8 hour rest.
In order to cast a spell, a Mage must make or exceed the spells DC using a roll of 2d6. He adds whatever modifiers he possesses from magic items and his Caster Skill The Caster Skill is split into several subskills split thus by Yitzi:
There are five ranks to each skill, each costing more skill points in order to level up. For example: Rank 1 in Protection is 1 Skill Point, allowing virtually anyone to “get a foot in the door”. Rank 2 would cost 2 Skill Points, Rank 3 costs 3 Skill Points and so on. Each rank adds an additional modifier to the Caster's DC for the initial casting of a spell, up to a maximum of +5.
Note:
SpoilerWhenever the GM announces a "Level Up" (normal 2d6 does this for certain circumstances such as completing certain objectives and whatnot) Skill Points are awarded for every Odd Numbered Level. When Skill Points are awarded, they follow the Formula: INT Mod +3 (for a minimum of +1 Skill Point if you play a particularly thick character).
If the Caster matches or exceeds his/her chosen spell DC, then the spell's cost in MP is subtracted from the Caster's total Mana Pool. Finally, the Caster may cast their spell by making a 2d6 Attack roll, modified by their Skill Rank, INT Modifier, and any modifiers added by items. If the target of the spell is aware of the spell and an enemy, he may make an appropriate Defensive roll.
Example:
SpoilerSylas the Mage is fighting an Orc named Mazog. It is Sylas' turn, and so he wishes to attack. He chooses to cast Fireball. He rolls a 2d6 (Result: 9) and adds his Creation Skill Rank to that (+3) as well as an additional modifier from his Magic Staff (+1). His Caster DC is thus, 13. Fireball's DC is 9 (subject to change). Sylas thus successfully Cast Fireball.
Sylas subtracts 15MP from his Mana (also subject to change), and then selects Mazog as his target. Sylas rolls an attack roll, 2d6 (result:7) +3 (Creation) +1 (Staff) +3 (INT mod). He rolls a total of 14.
Mazog cannot Resist or Shrug off a Fireball and must instead dodge it. He rolls 2d6 (result:11) +1 (Evasive Skill) +1 (Boots of Leaping) +1 (DEX mod). He rolls 14 as well. As the Defender wins ties, the spell misses and Mazog is free to attack Sylas on the next turn.
A Spell List for this system is forthcoming.Last edited by Ninjadeadbeard; 2011-11-21 at 09:14 PM. Reason: Update
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2011-11-08, 08:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Alternate Magic System
First you would implement a spell slot system. If you want them to be based of life-force, you could have a number of spell points equal to your woundsxM, where M is a variable defined by age. In addition, have what spells that could be accessed based on how many ranks in cast you have. Have the less powerful spells require 1 or 2 ranks, but the more powerful ones require 4 or 5.
That is just a start. You could have it where you have a pool of virtual wounds, which you spend on spells. If those are out, you could spend real wounds. You could have the virtual wounds based of age, say (100-age)/10. So if you were 30, you would have 7 virtual wounds, where if you were 60 you would have 4.Illud quod aeternitatem iacere potest non mortuus est, ac dis peregrinis etiam mors moriatur.
D&D 3.5≠Pathfinder
Typhon by Kaptainkrutch. Thanks to TylerB7 for the latin
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2011-11-08, 11:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Alternate Magic System
So, if a wizard in a party is down to 1 spell slot open near the end of a long encounter/day of encounters, and he gets hit and loses a Wound, he would lose said spell slot? I don't know if that's fair (though I suppose more hardcore “let the dice fall where they may” players would approve).
Hmmm... that could work. Makes sense since only older characters would have earned enough skill points to raise their cast skill.
Okay, I liked that last part. Assuming these virtual wounds are based off Wisdom or Intelligence (as Wounds are based off Con) I have a thought:
SpoilerNumber of Spell Uses = {Wisdom/Intelligence modifier * (100 – [Age Rounded Down])/10} + 3
So a 30 yr old wizard with +3 Wis will have 24 spell uses per day ({3 x [100-30]/10} + 3). The 2d6 rules prevent (unless you decide to hang the rules) stats from getting higher than +4, so if I'm doing the math right, 35 Spell Slots is the usual max with a 20yr old character (any younger than that is too young to adventure, mostly). I feel like that's a lot, but 2d6 doesn't have a limit on spells (that I can see in the pdf) and they'll be relatively weak spells, so I don't know.
I think the least amount of slots one can have is 10, if only so that there can still be 80+ year old masters wandering around who are viable at all.
A question though: What if a character's age isn't divisible by 10? Like 15, or 45? Do we round up, or down?
Thoughts? I like where this is going, and thank you for the help so far.
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2011-11-09, 08:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Alternate Magic System
A question though: What if a character's age isn't divisible by 10? Like 15, or 45? Do we round up, or down?
For the woundsxM thing, I forget to say that it was maximum wounds, though I knd of like the idea of losing magic when you get hurtIllud quod aeternitatem iacere potest non mortuus est, ac dis peregrinis etiam mors moriatur.
D&D 3.5≠Pathfinder
Typhon by Kaptainkrutch. Thanks to TylerB7 for the latin
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2011-11-10, 01:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Alternate Magic System
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2011-11-10, 10:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Alternate Magic System
While I dont like the +3 part, I think its good. You might want to add TOU Mod. (minimum 1)*blahblahblah, so somebody with a toughnes of 0 wont be screwed.
Illud quod aeternitatem iacere potest non mortuus est, ac dis peregrinis etiam mors moriatur.
D&D 3.5≠Pathfinder
Typhon by Kaptainkrutch. Thanks to TylerB7 for the latin
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2011-11-10, 10:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Alternate Magic System
I'd say that the way you probably want to do it is rather than having spell levels per se, have a spell cost (either in spell slots or a more mana-like system; the latter probably works better) as well as a spellcraft (or whatever equivalent you use) DC to cast the spell successfully. More blasty spells would have a high cost but low spellcraft DC, while subtler spells would be the other way around. Then make the available spell slots/mana (as well as save DCs, which also represent power) be higher for younger wizards.
And I suspect it'd be interesting to play, although you will need to place a cap on level at each age, at least starting out.
Also, note that the way you broke up power as opposed to skill really isn't that good. Variety is more likely to represent skills than power, and death effects and SLAs would represent either. I'd say a better approach is that power is the raw energy behind the spell, while skill is its complexity.
The resulting trade-off between Batman Wizard/God Wizard and blastiness/endurance/DCs should also help keep wizards away from the "solve everything" phenomenon.Last edited by Yitzi; 2011-11-10 at 10:27 PM.
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2011-11-11, 01:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Alternate Magic System
I added the plus three basically for the same reason that 2d6 has a +3 for getting Wounds. A slight bit of padding. If someone is trying to build a mage with this system, why would they hamper themselves by putting so little points into the main attribute?
I like spell costs, and I was going to keep the DC aspect as it was already in 2d6 (and I was mostly making this magic system for a homebrew version of that). You just put it much better.
I rather like the idea of spell slots, but if you think Mana is better then how should mana be calculated? The 2d6 Wound system doesn't go very high (like, 7 Wounds on a maxed Con), so I was thinking to follow a similar scale, or at least similarly calculated.
As I said, I'm very bad at guessing what would be appropriate numbers for something like this (still love the concept!), so what would you suggest as caps?
Hmmm....interesting. Again, you put it better than I tried to. Yes, I am looking for something like The Bruiser Wizard with very low saves Versus the Subtle Wizard with high saves and more varied abilities. I partly thought of this system because I wanted to justify the idea (in a World builder I'm working on) of Wizard Apprenticeships. Older wizards instruct younger ones, and gain a powerful (if cruder) ally. One has the knowledge, the other has the power.
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2011-11-11, 02:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Alternate Magic System
I don't even know 2d6. But I do know how I'd split up power and skill, so there it is.
I rather like the idea of spell slots, but if you think Mana is better
To put it another way: Is there ever a time that a younger wizard would be "out" and unable to cast powerful spells, but still be able to cast a large number of weaker spells? If yes, you want a spell slot system similar to D&D (although probably with spontaneous rather than Vancian spellcasting); if no, you want a mana system.
then how should mana be calculated? The 2d6 Wound system doesn't go very high (like, 7 Wounds on a maxed Con), so I was thinking to follow a similar scale, or at least similarly calculated.
Hmmm....interesting. Again, you put it better than I tried to. Yes, I am looking for something like The Bruiser Wizard with very low saves Versus the Subtle Wizard with high saves and more varied abilities.
I partly thought of this system because I wanted to justify the idea (in a World builder I'm working on) of Wizard Apprenticeships. Older wizards instruct younger ones, and gain a powerful (if cruder) ally. One has the knowledge, the other has the power.
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2011-11-11, 11:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Alternate Magic System
Constitution Mod + 3 = Wounds. Every attacks that lands takes away a Wound point until you die at 0. Short version. It's a nice system because it makes combat tense, and it very closely follows your attributes, so it's easy to calculate. I see what you mean about power and skill, and I was thinking along those lines as well.
You've sold me on the Mana system. I do see this working better with spontaneous casting. A younger wizard who's "out" isn't just out of powerful spells, but rather is now incapable of using magic at all as he would have run out of Mana.
As I said earlier, this doesn't help too much. 2d6 is really simple, and the Wounds system doesn't really allow for multiple wounds per round unless your attack roll doubles the defender's defense roll. In that case, you might Wound them twice or cut off or damage a limb, or just knock them out. Most Enemy NPCs should have 4 to 5 Wounds (Con 1 or 2, and then +3). Every successful attack does 1 Wound. It's a very different system. The pdf for the system is in one lothofkalroth's posts, Here.
Alright, I'll work on a cap, but until I determine a definitive scale for Mana I won't really know what that should be.
I really like this idea! Maybe an older wizard could add his high Cast check to the younger wizard's, effectively allowing the young wizard to use spells higher up on the scale that he couldn't cast before? Or the older one could apply some sort of meta-magic feat to the young one's spell, like changing a strong single-target blast spell into a Mass-Blast attack?
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2011-11-12, 11:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Alternate Magic System
And what's healing, particularly out-of-combat healing, look like? (In other words, how does that 3+mod Wounds translate into fights/day?)
[quote]As I said earlier, this doesn't help too much. 2d6 is really simple, and the Wounds system doesn't really allow for multiple wounds per round unless your attack roll doubles the defender's defense roll. In that case, you might Wound them twice or cut off or damage a limb, or just knock them out. Most Enemy NPCs should have 4 to 5 Wounds (Con 1 or 2, and then +3). Every successful attack does 1 Wound. It's a very different system. The pdf for the system is in one lothofkalroth's posts, Here.
In that case, the best way to represent more powerful attacks would probably be just making it more likely to be effective.
Alright, I'll work on a cap, but until I determine a definitive scale for Mana I won't really know what that should be.
I really like this idea! Maybe an older wizard could add his high Cast check to the younger wizard's, effectively allowing the young wizard to use spells higher up on the scale that he couldn't cast before? Or the older one could apply some sort of meta-magic feat to the young one's spell, like changing a strong single-target blast spell into a Mass-Blast attack?
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2011-11-13, 08:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Alternate Magic System
Okie, so I love the idea. I have always thought that magic should be more fluid in d&d. Even the sorcerer isn't really there.
What I see shaping at the moment is interesting and makes me want to give you my two cents:
Keep the mana/spell charge/whatever Constitution based: it perfectly represents how youth would be able to channel more raw magic, their bodies being healthier.
Add some abilities that are gained based on Intelligence and Wisdom: that is what age usually brings, especially to those that spend their life studying. So grants some bonuses that the caster can choose to add to whatever casting they choose. They get more of those as they get older, Int and Wis growing. Perhaps you must have X int and wis to unlock Y ability.
Take the skill thing to a new place: I would write up new skills altogether. Perhaps each spellschool is a skill now. Or instead by ability. Destruction skill (use it for anything from elemental damage, to eventually save or dies), and the Lifeforce skill (all the cures, restorations, positive and negative energy), etc. Maybe you need certain amount of ranks in one of those skills before you can even understand those types of spells of X level and above. You get the idea.
I would be glad to hash out a list with you, if you like the idea.Last edited by motionmatrix; 2011-11-13 at 08:22 PM.
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2011-11-15, 03:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Alternate Magic System
You heal 1 Wound per day if you rest 8 hours, or 2 per day if you or someone else uses a successful Heal Check (must have Heal Trade Skill). Magic healing doubles this again, but a high DC (determined by GM) can instantly replenish someone's health. I suppose that would mean, what, 5 fights per day? I'm just guess-timating. More? Less?
So, younger wizards would have lower DC's to successfully cast their spells? Or do you mean, young wizard's blast spells could do more than 1 Wound per hit?
How about: Con Modifier + 5 * (100 – [Age Rounded Down])/10} ?
Example: A 30 yr old mage (+3 Con) you get a total of 56 Mana Points. A 20 yr old (+3 Con) would also have 64. The only problem here is what happens when a character gets older. How should this system handle Age Categories and their various modifiers?
Well, yes. But the young one couldn't cast the spell normally without the Older one's help. How should the older one help then?
Thank you.
Alright. I was seriously considering going back to that (closer to the original concept, ya know?).
So, maybe Mana Pool is determined by Constitution, but the Spell List is increased and expanded with Int and Wis.
I like this idea, but I'm not sure. I want to keep fairly close to the normal 2d6 ruleset (though it is highly customizable, so...). The trouble is, in the 2d6 rules, Skills go up exponentially. Example: It takes 1 skill point to go up to Skill Level 1. It takes 2 additional points to reach Level 2. Then 3 additional. Then 4. And finally 5. Skill points are awarded one at a time, for various conditions. It seems like it would take a long time to level so many magic skills enough to be a powerful wizard.
Although... I could say that instead whenever you “level up” (ie, the GM thinks you earned it), you get 1 skill point + your Int Modifier. A smart mage would up their Skill Levels faster that way. An old mage could master several magic skills like how you thought to split them up (like the Knowledge skill, if I read you correctly).
Which idea sounds better? Slower or quicker skill advancement?
If you get any ideas, just post them. I'll post some spells from the 2d6 rules, and maybe some from D&D that might be fun. Thank you for the ideas!
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2011-11-15, 05:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Alternate Magic System
The 2d6 "system" is really "take 2d6, add your skill".
The first thing I want to address is--do you plan on having characters get better over time? Because as it appears, you want a wizard who has trained for 40 years to be as strong as a wizard who just started his training. People generally want weather veteran badasses, so that idea in a system probably won't fly. Perhaps over advancement, the power gain could slow down, and the skill gain could increase, but losing power won't attract people to a system.
In other news, magical "finesse" needs some definition. When I hear finesse, I think of "ignoring resistances", and when I hear "power", I think of "larger numbers". In actuality, both of those concepts are basically the same, since a penalty to defense provides the same benefit as a bonus to hit (if they are the same magnitude). So what are you going for here? Are magic battles summed up the way they are in 2d6, with a resistance test against a defensive DC? Or do you want magic battles to be multiple rolls?
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2011-11-15, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Alternate Magic System
Sounds like most of the time you're going the whole day on a single set of hit points...next question, how likely is a hit between evenly matched opponents?
So, younger wizards would have lower DC's to successfully cast their spells? Or do you mean, young wizard's blast spells could do more than 1 Wound per hit?
Maybe if you could link something with the bare bones of the 2d6 system (i.e. the basic mechanics that don't depend on class) I'd have a better idea of what's going on.
How about: Con Modifier + 5 * (100 – [Age Rounded Down])/10} ?
Example: A 30 yr old mage (+3 Con) you get a total of 56 Mana Points. A 20 yr old (+3 Con) would also have 64. The only problem here is what happens when a character gets older. How should this system handle Age Categories and their various modifiers?
Well, yes. But the young one couldn't cast the spell normally without the Older one's help. How should the older one help then?
The idea is that each spell has three things restricting it: The spellcasting DC (which increases with INT and skill ranks, and is low for blasting spells and high for subtle spells), the mana cost (which comes from a pool based on CON and low age, and is high for blasting spells and low for subtle spells), and the resistence test (which has a higher modifier for "harder" spells, and has its DC dependent on the target.)
Which idea sounds better? Slower or quicker skill advancement?
They wouldn't be losing power, though, more changing style. An older wizard should still be superior to a younger one at charms, illusions, etc.
In other news, magical "finesse" needs some definition. When I hear finesse, I think of "ignoring resistances", and when I hear "power", I think of "larger numbers". In actuality, both of those concepts are basically the same, since a penalty to defense provides the same benefit as a bonus to hit (if they are the same magnitude).
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2011-11-16, 12:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Alternate Magic System
Age category becomes much more important. In fact I would probably tie age to level. Make sure the story moves in large sweeps, because a level takes maybe 6 months at first, but by the time you head towards 11+, those take more time. You get older, and it gives a great feel to the game, making the decision to be a caster that much more important.
Thats not bad. Age brings more tricks up your sleeve, you just don't have as many uses. I like that. I would probably really restrict the amount of spells known at early levels, and really boost as they climb up.
This ties in pretty well into (level + age).
You are the DM, if you are not going to give experience, instead simply say you level up, you don't need to mess with the skill point system, simply give the casters more skills points when they level, since they will be making up with skills later on in old age. And grant them an ability that lets them choose X amount of skills as class skills as they progress. That will simulate well how skill takes over magic.
It is up to you to decide how many magical skills this would be (which in turn, will determine how much you need to change the amount of skill points they gain each level)
If you don't want to let it get to crazy, lets try to sum it up to 5 magical skills.
Create: anything that actually brings something into reality. e.g. mage armor, summon monster I, minor creation, storm of vengeance (this may be both create and energy).
Change: most transmutations, soften earth and stone, poison, polymorph, make whole. also restoration, remove paralysis, regenerate, etc. but not direct cure spells.
Energy: most things with an energy descriptor, disintegrate, flaming sphere, flame blade, also all cure and inflict effects. If its instantaneous and deals damage, it most likely belongs here. probably most save or die.
Mental: most divinations, enchantments and illusions.
Planar: any teleportation spells, anything that deals with other planes (not summons). any movement that is not mechanical (e.g. wings), including shadow walk, dimension door, blink, etc.
Some spells belong in more than one of these. They should have skill requirements in more than one to gain access to that particular spell.
Obviously I am using the d20 system for these examples.
Your casters will be much more specialized, at least at first. That's assuming a wizard is still a wizard and will never have access to CLW regardless of how many ranks in energy he has. Unless he goes multiclass, of course. Maybe you will just have one casting class with everything available, that may work as well.
that depends on how often they level, how many skills you ultimately decide to give them, and I guess whatever system you come up with here. I would start out slow for a session or two of playtesting. then ramp it up a few levels to see if the jump is too crazy.
Remember the skills I just wrote were off the top of my head, but I think I covered all the basics.
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2011-11-16, 03:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Alternate Magic System
It's 50/50. Every time you attack, you roll against the defender's roll. Whoever rolls highest (after counting modifiers) hits. Defender wins ties, but can counterattack with the Vicious Parry Talent if the defending roll doubles the attacker's. So, it's just under 50/50 chance to hit.
Oh, like you make the Caster Check, but you fail to hit. I think I see. It's the same system to hit with magic as it is a ranged weapon (or any weapon for that manner). The Caster rolls an attack against a defender's roll, same as usual.
I remember posting the thread with the 2d6 rules earlier, but in case no one noticed: Here is the post made by lothofkalroth, and Here is a site to download the pdf for 2d6 Gamma, the same I am using presently.
I'm considering that [CON + 5 * ((100-Age)/10)] formula for generating a given character's Mana Pool, and when a spell list finally appears in something similar to a complete form, the spell costs would be adjusted to fit in a similar scale.
Alright, so just keep Age Categories. I suppose it's the player's own fault for not putting enough points into CON to avoid losing all their Mana at once. Actually, should their be a minimum amount of Mana, regardless of how low the CON is? (Not that it should be low, but you know.)
Okay, I see what you mean there. The DC for generating the spell, the Mana required, and then the ability to overcome the enemy saves. That's a great way to put it actually.
I think I want it to be harder to max all ranks. That way it's more of an accomplishment. Besides, as motionmatrix said:
It's a thematic decision.
I'll try to find time soon to break down a spell list following this idea. I really like how you split up the schools.
Done and done. I really like this.
I think what spells one knows or can learn should be tied into INT (or WIS, if that might work better). So, yeah, like you said. More spells open up over time as the mage learns them (or gets smart enough to cast them).
Hmm. Alright. I think 1 Skill Point + INT modifier (minimum +1 per level) works well for my purposes. There are no Class Skills in 2d6, but it will still take a while to max a single skill if we only award skill points for every other level. If they throw all their points into a single Skill (read: Caster type), they'll be 9th lvl before they master a particular school.
Spoilered the next quote because of length.
I can't decide whether to use your means of splitting up the Cast Skill, or Yitzi's. Yours is a little more vague, but it could allow for more play in the system. Yitzi's is simple in that it's just a separation by the D&D Magic Schools (something I think most will recognize when they see it). I just don't know yet.
Yeah, basically. I was just going with one spellcaster class.
I'll try to get my players together sometime and do a test once we sort out the finer points of this system. Thank you for the input.
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2011-11-16, 09:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Alternate Magic System
Just under 50/50 assuming modifiers are the same.
Oh, like you make the Caster Check, but you fail to hit. I think I see. It's the same system to hit with magic as it is a ranged weapon (or any weapon for that manner). The Caster rolls an attack against a defender's roll, same as usual.
I'm considering that [CON + 5 * ((100-Age)/10)] formula for generating a given character's Mana Pool, and when a spell list finally appears in something similar to a complete form, the spell costs would be adjusted to fit in a similar scale.
Actually, should their be a minimum amount of Mana, regardless of how low the CON is? (Not that it should be low, but you know.)
I think I want it to be harder to max all ranks. That way it's more of an accomplishment
I'll try to find time soon to break down a spell list following this idea. I really like how you split up the schools.
I think what spells one knows or can learn should be tied into INT (or WIS, if that might work better). So, yeah, like you said.
Yitzi's is simple in that it's just a separation by the D&D Magic Schools (something I think most will recognize when they see it). I just don't know yet.
1. Protection: All abjurations. They should all have moderate cost and casting DC, except that those that form absolute defenses (e.g. Death Ward, Mind Blank) probably should have a high DC.
2. Creation: Conjuration (Creation), Illusion (Figment) and Evocation. Figments should have high casting DC and low cost, Conjuration (Creation) and Evocation should have low DC and high cost.
3. Planar: All other Conjuration subschools, as well as Illusion (Shadow) and negative energy spells (from the Necromancy school; anything that affects undead differently (other than just not working) is probably a negative energy spell). (Note that summoning is planar in nature.) Should have low DC and medium cost for conjuration and for negative energy spells (or high cost in the case of spells that bestow negative levels), and medium DC and high cost for Shadow.
4. Divination: All divinations. Should have very low cost, but very high DC. (This, by the way, means that the best diviners are the really old wizards, who also probably have the skill points to spend on the school. Sort of makes sense; you want knowledge, you go to the old guys.)
5. Mind: All Enchantment spells, as well as Illusion (Pattern) and Illusion (Phantasm) spells. Should have high DC and low cost for illusions and Enchantment (Charm) spells, and low DC and high cost for Enchantment (Compulsion) spells.
6. Change: Should include Transmutation, all Necromancy other than negative energy spells, and Illusion (Glamer). Should have low cost and high DC for illuson, medium cost and high DC for Transmuatation, and high cost and medium DC for Necromancy.
That's 6 rather than 5 schools, but one of them (divination) is really designed for those who are high-INT and high level (and thus have the points to spend.)
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2011-11-16, 12:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
Re: An Alternate Magic System
I like it, although protection seems more like an extension of creation, with mental protections (e.g. mind blank) that belong in Mind or Divination.
By the same token, you can roll Divination into Mind. However, you do want to split up enough skills to make sense of the younger/older caster relationship you want.
So this works well, I would probably fuse Mind and divination, keeping the high divining DC so the old ones are still the masters.
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2011-11-16, 04:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
Re: An Alternate Magic System
I'd say mental protections would go in Mind, Force effects and abjuration barriers in Creation, and physical protections (e.g. stoneskin) and Dispel Magic in Change.
By the same token, you can roll Divination into Mind.
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2011-11-16, 04:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Alternate Magic System
In all reality, you make a system with whatever justifications you want (even one's like "It's Magic. It just works that way."), and people who like the system will be enticed to use it.
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2011-11-16, 05:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-11-16, 08:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
Re: An Alternate Magic System
The point of that post was to say that you can wrap divination in with just about anything and say "old people have brains that do this better", and if the system (aging v. power and versatility, or whatever it is) works well, then your flavor and reasoning behind the abilities will not matter.
In fact, that almost appears to be what you're saying. Thus, I do proclaim, that you shouldn't worry about where divination belongs thematically, but whether it is strong or weak in your game, and divide up your schools as such.
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2011-11-16, 09:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Alternate Magic System
Oh, is that bad?
I think 15 is a good minimum, with perhaps the lowest cost spell being a Divination spell worth 3 Mana.
Lol, exactly. Not-very-bright-wizards is a great term.
Hmmm. I like these. Just going thru the list:
1. No problems with this. I can imagine a master of Protection would be a favorite among a decadent, backstabbing Court-style setting just for Mind Blank and anti-thievery spells.
2. I tend to think that all Illusion should be under Mind, but I can see why Ill(Figment) would be in creation, so never mind.
3. I was going to complain about Summoning needing a low DC but I guess tearing through dimensional boundaries is a more “blunt force” thing.
4. Love this. Absolutely love this.
5. Also love this. I especially like how Compulsion is a Low DC, sort of like a shorthand for how straightforward, but unsubtle it is.
6. Okay. Yeah, I can see this.
This is a great way to divide the Caster Skills, I think. Very few of the spells in these schools can be directly transposed due to the differences between D&D and 2d6, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. Really, thank you.
I'll get something posted on my first post, just so we can have a single spot where things are laid out concretely.
I don't think you can use Divination in combat (I could be wrong), so I doubt a young wizard would be able to use it.
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2011-11-16, 10:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
Re: An Alternate Magic System
Of course the flavor and reasoning behind the abilities will matter. The flavor and reasoning behind the abilities is what makes it a world to role-play in rather than just a set of arbitrary rules to some game. Of course, some people focus just on it as a game, but many don't (and I find that the far more interesting and enjoyable way to play; to tell the truth, none of these systems are mechanically good enough to be enjoyable without RP except as an optimization challenge.)
but whether it is strong or weak in your game, and divide up your schools as such.
That is a decision about how magic should work, which is up to the DM. I was just telling you the consequences; whether you like them is up to you.
I think 15 is a good minimum, with perhaps the lowest cost spell being a Divination spell worth 3 Mana.
Hmmm. I like these. Just going thru the list:
1. No problems with this. I can imagine a master of Protection would be a favorite among a decadent, backstabbing Court-style setting just for Mind Blank and anti-thievery spells.
2. I tend to think that all Illusion should be under Mind, but I can see why Ill(Figment) would be in creation, so never mind.
3. I was going to complain about Summoning needing a low DC but I guess tearing through dimensional boundaries is a more “blunt force” thing.
5. Also love this. I especially like how Compulsion is a Low DC, sort of like a shorthand for how straightforward, but unsubtle it is.
This is a great way to divide the Caster Skills, I think. Very few of the spells in these schools can be directly transposed due to the differences between D&D and 2d6
I don't think you can use Divination in combat (I could be wrong), so I doubt a young wizard would be able to use it.
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2011-11-17, 03:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
Re: An Alternate Magic System
Oi, don't jump topics. I say, if the system is good, your flavorful reasoning can be just about anything mildly sensible, and players won't put down your idea. They will put down your idea if it functions poorly, so do not think about where some aspect of magic "belongs", because that will consume days without resolution and will prevent you from working on important things like mechanics.
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2011-11-17, 09:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Alternate Magic System
The danger isn't the players putting it down, the danger is it leading to the wrong concept of magic.
They will put down your idea if it functions poorly, so do not think about where some aspect of magic "belongs", because that will consume days without resolution
important things like mechanics.
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2011-11-18, 12:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
Re: An Alternate Magic System
OMG, divination in combat is a must: mind reading (I think of this as partial divination/mind, since its information gathering), seeing whats happening a few seconds ahead of time (giving you the ability to react supernaturally), uncanny dodge or evasion effects through, act in surprise rounds, increases to initiative, AC, attacks, negate other's actions, rerolls; premonition bonuses if you will. All of those effects can easily be flavored directly into divination. A lot of it would be quick and dirty, what the younger ones would use.
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2011-11-18, 02:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
Re: An Alternate Magic System
Yitzi, you just agreed with me that 'unbalanced' means that game mechanics are a top priority. Therefore you are agreeing with me in my assertion that crap like setting and plot and whatever you like are lower-priority. Therefore, you must be agreeing with me that one must work on game balance FIRST over flavor.
Which makes me wonder why you take the time to refute me, if the entire refute is you agreeing with me and then saying I'm wrong.
In other news, I think a big thing to do would be to focus on the tactics of older/younger people. I can imagine that most people who want to play a wizened old man want to be gandalf, which seems to me to be varied combat (not just magic) skills, auras for buffs, high diplomacy, and then perhaps barriers of some kind.
When I think of young people, stuff like Teen Titans come to mind, so I think of high speed and high damage, but low defenses.
So young people are glass cannons and old people are tanks (actually, that fits in well with themes. There are usually very few old casters in fantasy fiction, which can be attributed to the fact that most young casters die due to recklessness and not enough defenses).
So if you just take those tactics and use them, ignoring D&D magic like the terms "Divination", you'll have a better direction for where the age-to-magic relationship is going. I recommend a few paths like Warlock, Priest, Druid, etc. with two trees (old and young) that the players can pick off of.
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2011-11-18, 07:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
Re: An Alternate Magic System
{{scrubbed}}
One must first work on making the mechanics somewhat playable (well, unless ditching mechanics entirely, which can also work). Once you've done that, setting, plot, and characterization are far more important than mechanics.
In other news, I think a big thing to do would be to focus on the tactics of older/younger people. I can imagine that most people who want to play a wizened old man want to be gandalf, which seems to me to be varied combat (not just magic) skills, auras for buffs, high diplomacy, and then perhaps barriers of some kind.
Remember, Gandalf isn't human, so he's not really a good model.Last edited by LibraryOgre; 2011-11-22 at 10:34 AM.