Skill-Based 4E?

[Lord Raziere]

The Elder Scrolls thread gave me an idea.

do you think it would be possible to make a skill-based 4E? on one hand, it could allow for more flexibility, on the other hand it might screw up the party balance that its built upon. hmm…..

anyone think its a good idea? probably not….

[erikun]

For 4e? Not really.

Consider how skills and attack bonuses work.
Skills are +1/2 level +ability modifier, +5 for trained
Weapon attacks are +1/2 level +ability modifier, +2 for proficiency
Non-weapon attacks are +1/2 level +ability modifier

Excuse me if my math is off; it's been over a year since I last played.

Anyways, attacks are already determined as if they were "untrained" skills, with weapon proficiencies and magic bonuses added to the rolls. Including them in skills wouldn't change anything for unskilled characters, and would be handing out +5 bonuses for a simple skill training. Given how rarely a character will be away from their chosen weapon, you could easily end up with a near-guaranteed success against nearly everything you swing it against.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

The At-Will blog had a post where he talked about letting players make use of expended powers by making an appropriate skill check. The basic idea was that the power gave you a "gimme" for that particular thing. For instance, Tumble. You could use the Tumble power (for rogues) or make an Acrobatics check against an appropriate DC.

If you used a skill as the basis for attacks, this could work.

[Mando Knight]

The At-Will blog had a post where he talked about letting players make use of expended powers by making an appropriate skill check. The basic idea was that the power gave you a "gimme" for that particular thing. For instance, Tumble. You could use the Tumble power (for rogues) or make an Acrobatics check against an appropriate DC.

If you used a skill as the basis for attacks, this could work.

Of course, the DC should be relative to the type of power. If you think a Fighter's level 1 Encounter is worth a Moderate Athletics DC (for example), his level 1 Daily should be a Hard Athletics check instead.

[Vrythas]

first question,

when you said "The Elder Scrolls thread", did you mean MY thread? i don't mean that in a bad way, in fact i would be honored that you mention it. anyways, i'm fairly certain you are talking about my thread (not to be pompous or anything...), so i will assume this for the rest of my post.

second question (really more of a...thing, than a question),

as i am currently going through everything in Morrowind, combat will eventually come up. i was planning on sticking to the 4e combat rules, but this idea of yours sounds interesting. unfortunately, i currently lack the intelligence/understanding to make heads or tails of it. if you could flesh out the idea a little more, it would help greatly .

Vrythas.

[Fortuna]

Of course, the DC should be relative to the type of power. If you think a Fighter's level 1 Encounter is worth a Moderate Athletics DC (for example), his level 1 Daily should be a Hard Athletics check instead.

Even then, it does screwy things to game balance.

Basically, that turns the game into justifying a skill to get a power back. It means that those who have the appropriate skill to exploit it (which will not be everyone: plenty of classes have no fixed skills) are going to be underperforming, and it means that being good at skills just got much more important.

[Zaq]

It would take some tweaking, but I could see something similar to this if you relegated it to utility powers (perhaps even limiting it to encounter skill powers). Applying it to attack powers does way too many things to the system's baseline assumptions to be covered with a simple rule tweak; you're looking at a partial-to-heavy rewrite at that point.

[theflyingkitty]

Now, if you're talking about jumping, I can see it.

As in the Elderscrolls, the more you jump the better you can jump.

If I've noticed a player working hard at a craft between levels, or sneaking alot, or well... doing ANYTHING alot in RP, I'll often give him a free bonus skill pt in that particular thing. Practice SHOULD make perfect.

[Vrythas]

If I've noticed a player working hard at a craft between levels, or sneaking alot, or well... doing ANYTHING alot in RP, I'll often give him a free bonus skill pt in that particular thing. Practice SHOULD make perfect.

you sir, are a genius.

you have provided a solution (now that its been mentioned, i really feel stupid for not thinking of it...) for a problem i have been having while designing my Morrowind homebrew.

now, to things relevant to the thread, i have made a Morrowind skill--D&D equivalent chart, that you could check out. feel free to use and/or tweak any of the stuff i have put in it. if you are serious about making a skill based 4e, you may find it helpful... but yeah, i still don't understand the using a skill in combat thing.....no, wait....ooooo....wait no.......ah HAH! i understand...or at least i think i understand... anyways that does sound interesting, but a bit unfair for some players, and kind of unnecessary. you could probably still make a skill based 4e, without it screwing up the existing combat system. unless that would defeat the purpose. i guess i'm still confused. please ignore me .

EDIT:
you know, i feel really stupid now. i realize that you're talking about 4e skills...not Morrowind....sorry, i've had Morrowind on my mind for too long.... please ignore me. i realize now that everything i have said so far is completely irrelevant.... gosh ...

[Lord Raziere]

eh, it was just idle speculation. the Elder Scrolls thread got me thinking "4E is good, but it could be better, more flexible" so why not try making it skill based to mix up the powers more? I don't know. I was just toying with an idea.

[eepop]

I could see removing the "+5 bonus for training" from skill rolls. Just make the skill rolls a flat d20+half level.

Bring back ranks, but instead of adding to the roll they determine what powers you can get via making all powers have skill prerequisites.

Barbarian Powers might be Athletics and Nature
---They require physical prowess as well as the ability to tap into your primal self.

Fighter Powers might be Athletics and History
--They require physical prowess as well as a knowledge of tactics and strategy.


etc

[Lord Raziere]

hmmmm….yea certain combos of skill lead to certain class power progressions….that sounds like something that could work…..

and would make Fighters smarter.

Arcane classes would have combinations that branch off Arcana

Divine Classes, Religion

Primal Classes, Nature

Martial Classes…..Athletics? maybe to probably.

Psionic Classes….I have no idea honestly.

there would probably be exceptions to the rule.

I think everyone would get a max of four skills to learn….maybe….hrmmm….