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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Lightbulb Race for Pathfinder: Woe, horribly broken or salvageable?

    Hi all,

    first off, my experience with roleplaying in general is limited (as in having played one session), I'm more of a wargamer, and in a certain wargame, I found a certain type of unit, which looked fun to base a Pathfinder class around, however due to my extremely limited experience, I am by fat not the right person to look at respective powerlevels so hereby I humbly ask the more knowledgeable persons around here for advice as how to correctly balance it. (One thing though, it is strictly Pathfinder bound, not 3.5, regardless of any advantages 3.5 could have; they are outshone by the fact that Pathfinder is readlily available, where as to start a 3.5 class I would have to find secondhand books, if they are even findable)

    Woes are typically between 5 and 6' tall
    though they are ghostshaped, every Woe has a humanoid form which can be accesed as a full action

    Abberation

    base speed 20ft

    -4 CHA
    -3 STR, DEX, CON
    +4 INT

    Medium

    Weapon en Armor Proficiency: Woes only have proficiency with simple weapons and longbows

    Coming From The Box
    all creatures within 60 ft of a Woe lose any immunities to Will Saves

    Crushing Agony
    every time a hostile creature fails a will save they take 1dg/combined lvl of all woes within 60ft

    In the Eye of a Nightmare
    In order to target a Woe, an opponent first must win an opposed Will save, resolved as following, both roll a D20, and the highest scoring notfailing roll wins (for example Woe rolls 15, attacker rolls 13, Woe wins this roll and thus the action of the opponent is failed, this however does not count as the action to have been used; ie if an action can only be taken a limited amount of times (for example spells) this does not count towards the alotment)

    Drawn to Misery
    every time this model succeeds on a Will save it may instantanously move up to 30ft, without the opposition having a chance to react against it (eg Attacks of opportunity)

    Despair
    Roll a D6 after casting a spell or psionic power from enchantement/Telepathy school, but before any appliable saves, on the roll of a natural 6 and after aplying the effects of the spell the target spends an entire round running away from the fight, as far away as possible from the Woe as is possible without entering the treatened zone of every other model.

    Language: Common

    Classes restriction: Woes are only permitted to gain class levels in classes which either use Arcane Magic, or Psionics, in the case of Arcane casters they are forbidden from accessing evocationspells, as no woe would ever be as direct as to blast the opponent simply asunder, they gain a +2 on the DC on spells of the Enchantement or psionics powers from the Telepathy school

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Race for Pathfinder: Woe, horribly broken or salvageable?

    So in order to target it you need to roll what amounts to an even-odds roll, and if you fail you not only can't target it, but also take 1d6/level and it moves 30' for free with no AoO? That alone would make it require an extremely high LA.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Race for Pathfinder: Woe, horribly broken or salvageable?

    Yitzi, I was not experienced enough to judge this, hence why I asked, however I did not say 1d6, but 1 dg (dg as for damage, which (my mistake) should of course be HP in D&D)

    EDIT: however, would it help if I penalise the Woes reflex and fortitude save?
    Last edited by Adanedhel; 2011-11-22 at 06:03 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Djinn_in_Tonic's Avatar

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    Default Re: Race for Pathfinder: Woe, horribly broken or salvageable?

    Alright...firstly, some general design notes.

    Score bonuses and penalties go by multiples of 2 in every 3.5e and Pathfinder system. That's because 2 points equates to a +1 bonus, and it makes it easy to tally. The only exception are the aging penalties. Stick with +2, -2, +4, -4, and so forth.

    Secondly, numerous abilities that trigger on a single circumstance (succeed on a Will save) encourage min-maxing. Especially when one violates a fundamental rule of balance: having an ability which can make you immune to everything. With a bit of effort in optimization I'll really only lose that roll about 10% of the time, making me immune to 90% of things...and having my opponent take damage and myself teleport every time an enemy attempts to take an action against me.

    As it stands, the race is prone to excessive min-maxing and isn't remotely balanced: it's unbalanced in concept, rather than just in execution, since the will save dependency makes it extremely bizarre to imagine someone not intending to exploit that side of it actually *using* the race for something.

    Let's step back to the drawing board. Ability mechanics aside, can you describe the race for us? Tell us what is crucial to the concept, and then a bit of description of other things about the race. In short, give us a flavor entry. Then we can figure out how to better represent the race mechanically in a way that fits into the framework of race balance and the game as a whole.
    Last edited by Djinn_in_Tonic; 2011-11-22 at 07:06 PM.

    Ingredients

    2oz Djinn
    5oz Water
    1 Lime Wedge


    Instructions

    Pour Djinn and tonic water into a glass filled with ice cubes. Stir well. Garnish with lime wedge. Serve.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Mulletmanalive's Avatar

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    Default Re: Race for Pathfinder: Woe, horribly broken or salvageable?

    No, there's no way to balance this for play.

    Looking over those features, i wouldn't feel right without a CR 10 slapped on this, at minimum, then enough HD to make it servicable... even then, if you tried to play it as a PC, you'd end up beaten to death by your co-players for constantly damaging them.

    It's also unclear what you actually mean by some of this stuff: you say at the beginning that you're thinking of it as a class, it has class things like weapon proficiencies but then has a favoured class?

    If you want to build a race, check out Golden's Guide to Race Building which is based on the actual guidelines used by the Pathfinder designers. For the record, being locked into spellcasting classes is not a penalty. At all.

    If you want to try your hand at a class, you're going to need some more features. This would [possibly] be viable as a 5 level prestige class. I don't think there's a good guide for that around here, possilby a Google search is in order.
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  6. - Top - End - #6
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Race for Pathfinder: Woe, horribly broken or salvageable?

    There is now a playtest document out for the official Pathfinder Advanced Race Guide. Basically it's rules for building custom races. Might want to look at that.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Race for Pathfinder: Woe, horribly broken or salvageable?

    okay, thx all for the helpfull comments; so in order

    Djinn_in_Tonic

    the idea is that a Woe is the personification of bad feelings, wherever they treath even the happiest person will feel down, they feed on despair.
    More or less everything they do is breaking an opponents mind untill when all is ready they beg for a release out of their life, at least if everything works out :)

    Basiccaly, a woe is what you get when you open Pandora's box, literally

    Mulletmanalive, the class at the start was a mistype, sorry for that :) I locked them into a spellcaster because of yeah, that's what they do, would locking them to be Enchanters/Telepaths a better idea? but yeah, I horrendously underestimated the minmaxing ability when all comes from one save, whereas the place where I based this mechanism off (a wargame) this ability is possesed by someone who is not adaptable, which is far less prone to abuse, I should have thought of that :)

    Analysis, thanks, I will look into that :)

    EDIT: Mulletmanalive; a 5level presige class might actually be worth looking unto, calling it Chosen of the Box or something similar, and only allowing non lawfull, non neutral good Enchanters or Telepaths, but it's going to take a lot more work, so it'll take a while before I finish this then :)
    Last edited by Adanedhel; 2011-11-23 at 01:52 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Djinn_in_Tonic's Avatar

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    Default Re: Race for Pathfinder: Woe, horribly broken or salvageable?

    Woe

    Creatures of misery, agony, and agonizing despair, Woes (also known as Boxlings) are physical incarnations of the contents of Pandora's Box. Once normal humans, the siren call of the world's evils has twisted them into beings of utter sadness tempered with temptation.

    Woes appear as humans with dark black eyes, although a close inspection reveals that their form is shifting, composed of flitting shadows and trails of smoke that together make up a "normal" human form.

    Medium Humanoid [Evil]: Although a Woe may have any alignment, it always counts as having the [Evil] subtype.
    Land Speed: 30 feet.
    +2 Charisma, +2 Strength: Temptation is a powerful force, both physical and mental.
    -2 Wisdom: A Woe's ability to perceive the world as fair, just, or beautiful has been permanently damaged, and many Woes border on insanity.

    Form of Whispers (Ex): A Woe is always treated as if it had Concealment, even against foes who could normally see through Concealment. A Woe may fit through any space that a Diminutive or small creature could fit through, although a Woe's base speed is reduced by 50% during any round in which it moves through a smaller are than it could normally fit through.

    Eye of Nightmares (Su): Tendrils of nightmares reach out from a Woe's form, dragging those around it into madness. Opponents within 10 feet of the Woe suffer a -1 penalty to attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks.

    ...this is probably a rather solid base race. Not entirely sure though, as I'm more familiar with 3.5 than with Pathfinder. It's OP for a 3.5 race, but I think they buffed the power curve considerably for Pathfinder races...
    Last edited by Djinn_in_Tonic; 2011-11-23 at 12:09 PM.

    Ingredients

    2oz Djinn
    5oz Water
    1 Lime Wedge


    Instructions

    Pour Djinn and tonic water into a glass filled with ice cubes. Stir well. Garnish with lime wedge. Serve.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Race for Pathfinder: Woe, horribly broken or salvageable?

    Djinn_in_Tonic I don't quite know what to say

    thanks, it's what I was looking for, way better then my idea,

    if I would be able to see you I would hand you over a cake, but since this is internet, have one internetz on me :)

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Djinn_in_Tonic's Avatar

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    Default Re: Race for Pathfinder: Woe, horribly broken or salvageable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adanedhel View Post
    Thanks, it's what I was looking for...


    ...way better then my idea.
    Not so sure on that. I'm just more familiar with system balance, 'tis all.

    If I would be able to see you I would hand you over a cake, but since this is internet, have one internetz on me :)
    Internetz are often more delicious than cake. Thankee kindly!

    About the Design: There's a possibility that the Concealment is a little over-powered. If that's the case, I'd recommend one of two things. The first would be to either decrease the Wisdom penalty to -4 or add a -2 Intelligence penalty, and the second would be to have the ability only affect physical weapon attacks.

    Ingredients

    2oz Djinn
    5oz Water
    1 Lime Wedge


    Instructions

    Pour Djinn and tonic water into a glass filled with ice cubes. Stir well. Garnish with lime wedge. Serve.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Race for Pathfinder: Woe, horribly broken or salvageable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    About the Design: There's a possibility that the Concealment is a little over-powered.
    If so, the best way to fix it would probably be to change it to a 3/day Blur, self-targeted only. That way it loses its main advantages over a potion of blur (nondispellability and being always active.)

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Race for Pathfinder: Woe, horribly broken or salvageable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    Not so sure on that. I'm just more familiar with system balance, 'tis all.

    About the Design: There's a possibility that the Concealment is a little over-powered. If that's the case, I'd recommend one of two things. The first would be to either decrease the Wisdom penalty to -4 or add a -2 Intelligence penalty, and the second would be to have the ability only affect physical weapon attacks.
    Balance is what mainly constitutes a good idea :)

    So to finish off with some details

    (one thing, I'm doubting to give Woes type Humanoid (Abberation[evil]), but I've never played with or against Abberations so am unsure, if this would put Woes on an advantage

    Woe

    Creatures of misery, agony, and agonizing despair, Woes (also known as Boxlings) are physical incarnations of the contents of Pandora's Box. Once normal humans, the siren call of the world's evils has twisted them into beings of utter sadness tempered with temptation.

    Woes appear as humans with dark black eyes, although a close inspection reveals that their form is shifting, composed of flitting shadows and trails of smoke that together make up a "normal" human form.

    Medium Humanoid [Evil]: Although a Woe may have any alignment, it always counts as having the [Evil] subtype.
    Land Speed: 30 feet.
    +2 Charisma, +2 Strength: Temptation is a powerful force, both physical and mental.
    -2 Wisdom: A Woe's ability to perceive the world as fair, just, or beautiful has been permanently damaged, and many Woes border on insanity.

    Form of Whispers (Ex): A Woe is always treated as if it had Concealment, even against foes who could normally see through Concealment. A Woe may fit through any space that a Diminutive or small creature could fit through, although a Woe's base speed is reduced by 50% during any round in which it moves through a smaller are than it could normally fit through.

    Eye of Nightmares (Su): Tendrils of nightmares reach out from a Woe's form, dragging those around it into madness. Opponents within 10 feet of the Woe suffer a -1 penalty to attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks.

    Weapon and Armor proficiency: Woe's, being creatures composed partly of shadow and form given emotion have no standard proficiencies, apart from unarmed combat and simple weapons.

    Automatic Language: Common

    Favored Classes: Wilder, Sorcerer, Rogue

    Age: as human

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Djinn_in_Tonic's Avatar

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    Default Re: Race for Pathfinder: Woe, horribly broken or salvageable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adanedhel View Post
    Balance is what mainly constitutes a good idea :)
    Nah. I and other homebrewers can teach anyone balance, or at least enough about it to make things work. You can't teach people how to have good ideas though.

    I'd also not make them Aberrations. The different creature type is an edge, and Aberrations are specifically monstrous creatures with alien biology. As written, these are definitively humanoid (or maybe Outsider [native, evil]).

    Ingredients

    2oz Djinn
    5oz Water
    1 Lime Wedge


    Instructions

    Pour Djinn and tonic water into a glass filled with ice cubes. Stir well. Garnish with lime wedge. Serve.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Race for Pathfinder: Woe, horribly broken or salvageable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adanedhel View Post
    Balance is what mainly constitutes a good idea :)
    Not really; balance is what distinguishes a mediocre or good idea from a bad one, but what distinguishes a good idea from a mediocre one is the concept behind it. Most ideas are at least balanced enough to not be bad ideas, so what really constitutes a good idea is the concept.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Race for Pathfinder: Woe, horribly broken or salvageable?

    Did a quick search on Paizo, and the idea of humanoid (aberrant) is to forecome things like immunity to hold person and stuff, the Pathfinder humanoid (aberrant) descripter behaves himself just like humanoids it seems, it's only for fluffreasons with the only example I know off Elans. But it would only make for greater confusing, so let's not do that. Nothing works like simplicity :)

    Yitzi: for now I'm blaming my very unbalanced first idea at extremely limited experience, if I do this again after a year or so, then yes maybe I should just trust the rules manual of having everything I would want :)

    Djinn: I have some problems finding groups cause all people I know already have their groups overloaded (6-8 PC's a group), so I hope I'll learn balance after a while, but first find myself a group :)

    (or since no one I really know seems to care much for reading OotS regardless how much I tell them about it, just proposing of DMing a game myself, and using a modified version of the OotS quest as startpoint, maybe it'll encourage them to try to read the strip, after which I'll diverge greatly from that line, as in setting the well intentioned extremist cleric up for a Heel Face Turn)

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Race for Pathfinder: Woe, horribly broken or salvageable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adanedhel View Post
    Yitzi: for now I'm blaming my very unbalanced first idea at extremely limited experience, if I do this again after a year or so, then yes maybe I should just trust the rules manual of having everything I would want :)
    I'm not sure what I said that you're responding to, but ok.

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