A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: All Of The Cheese!

    Anything with regeneration and immunity to fire and acid is tough to kill, but not hard to disable. While you don't take lethal damage you still take non-lethal damage from all things that would cause lethal damage.

    A warforged juggernaut become immune to the non-lethal damage without losing the regeneration. It also comes with a nice laundry list of other immunity.

    What is better is that you can shoehorn this into another build.

    There is a deity somewhere in some setting that lets druids wear metal armor. Be that druid type and qualify for juggernaut. Then finish with planer shepherd for fast / slow time.

    Then on the other side go psion or something and use infinite actions and PP to take 1000000 actions a round. Dip warblade to get blood in the water stance. Now use use 100000 attacks to get +5000 to attacks and damage by critical hitting yourself with a damage type you are immune to (energy ray fire will do nicely). (technicaly you can Coup de' gras yourself for even better action to bonus tradeoffs. Now you just need to crit yourself once every ten rounds to maintain your bonuses and keep them stacking into infinity. Remember that warforged don't need to sleep.

    You are nearly imposible to kill and you get 1000's of actions a round, killing anything you attack with a single hit.

    Note this build has two weaknesses I know of. Trollbane weapons still hurt you and searing fire spells still hurt you. Find some way of making fire damage heal you (this makes you immune in a way searing doesn't ignore).

    Technically immunity to poison from warforged should make you immune to trollbane as well (I think it is listed as one).

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: All Of The Cheese!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonely Tylenol View Post
    Other way around, kulosle: we want the divine spells that an archivist casts to count as arcane spells for the purpose of Spellguard.
    Ah yes sorry I was confused as to the point of trying to expand the nearly infinite spell list and so by default try to explain why it was nearly infinite.

    Isn't there a class, bone knight?, that gives you undead immunities while advancing divine spell casting. Is there a way to to turn this into an unkillable monstrosity? Also I really want counter spelling on this build. I know it's not the best idea usually, but this character will live for 3 hours.

    So the game is on the 10th and that means all builds have to be in on the 9th for review.

    Nearly final list of characters in playing order
    1)unkillable monstrosity
    2)duskblade gish.(will someone check my cheese fu on that? post 99 and suggest a PrC)
    3)beholder mage/d2 crusader
    4)jiriku's gnome illusionist
    5)planar shepherd (still haven't decided between the archivist verson or the one involving all the wierd druid things)

    Also I don't have the Tiny Von BigMcLargeHuge in any of these. Can i squeeze this into something? maybe the gish or the d2 crusader?

  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: All Of The Cheese!

    For hiding, the level 6 ability of [Illithid] Slayer should protect against Mindsight. The Darkstalker feat might do it if your DM likes you, but that's debatable (and it's really annoying that it's not made explicit one way or the other, given that Darkstalker and Mindsight are from the same book).

    For getting an Archivist's spells to count as arcane, there's a feat somewhere (I think it was a Dragon magazine) called Alternate Source Spell that'll do the trick. You need to already be able to cast both arcane and divine spells to take it, but it shouldn't be too hard to fit in a one-level dip of something arcane, in gestalt.
    Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
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  4. - Top - End - #154
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: All Of The Cheese!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    For hiding, the level 6 ability of [Illithid] Slayer should protect against Mindsight. The Darkstalker feat might do it if your DM likes you, but that's debatable (and it's really annoying that it's not made explicit one way or the other, given that Darkstalker and Mindsight are from the same book).

    For getting an Archivist's spells to count as arcane, there's a feat somewhere (I think it was a Dragon magazine) called Alternate Source Spell that'll do the trick. You need to already be able to cast both arcane and divine spells to take it, but it shouldn't be too hard to fit in a one-level dip of something arcane, in gestalt.
    Finally something that foils mindsight. I've been looking for this for ever. Thank you.

  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: All Of The Cheese!

    Debatable, and in my opinion it does not. The way it's worded you could make an argument for it foiling regular eyesight as much as you could mindsight.

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: All Of The Cheese!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirax View Post
    The way it's worded you could make an argument for it foiling regular eyesight as much as you could mindsight.
    Humm... permanent unassailable invisibility you say... They did say ALL the cheese.

  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Imp

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    Default Re: All Of The Cheese!

    There is only 2 ways that I know of to stop mindsight by raw.

    #1 If you do not have a language, mindsight will not work on you.

    #2 There is a way to steal feats out there somewhere. While they are stolen they supressed for the original owner. (i forgot the name of it).


    There are many ways to block mindsight by RAI though.

  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Default Re: All Of The Cheese!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung View Post
    #1 If you do not have a language, mindsight will not work on you.
    I don't see any realistic reading of mindsight and telepathy that could make that true. Though it does make me curious what ways there are to not have a language.
    Last edited by Hirax; 2011-12-06 at 03:41 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Default Re: All Of The Cheese!

    Quote Originally Posted by kulosle View Post
    Finally something that foils mindsight. I've been looking for this for ever. Thank you.
    AMF should unquestionably defeat mindsight because it blocks Telepathy as a supernatural power.

  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: All Of The Cheese!

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    AMF should unquestionably defeat mindsight because it blocks Telepathy as a supernatural power.
    That's great. Mindsight is an Ex feat, and works until you're stripped of having the Telepathy ability altogether. It is similar to how Manyshot is not dependant on Rapid Shot in any way aside from having it as a prerequisite.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  11. - Top - End - #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    That's great. Mindsight is an Ex feat, and works until you're stripped of having the Telepathy ability altogether. It is similar to how Manyshot is not dependant on Rapid Shot in any way aside from having it as a prerequisite.
    With any reasonable DM, you shouldn't even need to be within 10'. The feat says "...within range of its telepathy." Telepathy doesn't work in the AMF which can be interpreted as not in range, since a test for in range is "can you reach it?"

    Unrelated, mindsight makes a Formian Queen a potentially amazing puppet master, which I hadn't properly appreciated until now.

  12. - Top - End - #162
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: All Of The Cheese!

    Somewhere there is a class or race or something that can talk telepathically with all other members of that class within the plane they are on.

    This in of itself is not that great. With mindsight and a lose reading it allows you to see every creature with a mind on your plane of existence.

    Just saying.

    Now I have refined my unkilable build a little.

    Ranger 1 / fighter x / warblade 1 / warforged juggernaut x / slayer x
    //
    psion x / wizard x / metamind (or whatever the psionic / arcane duel progression class is)

  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Default Re: All Of The Cheese!

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    With any reasonable DM, you shouldn't even need to be within 10'. The feat says "...within range of its telepathy." Telepathy doesn't work in the AMF which can be interpreted as not in range, since a test for in range is "can you reach it?"
    No. The area that the Telepathy affects doesn't matter. Mindsight is a distinct ability with a range equal to the range of your Telepathy. You are still within range of Telepathy even if you are not affected by it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
    \ˈgrā-tər \
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    1. Describing basically the exact same monster but with twice the RHD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  14. - Top - End - #164
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    AssassinGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    No. The area that the Telepathy affects doesn't matter. Mindsight is a distinct ability with a range equal to the range of your Telepathy. You are still within range of Telepathy even if you are not affected by it.
    I don't see how you get that. Here's what the feat says:
    • The header:
      A creature that has this feat possesses innate telepathic ability that allows it to precisely pinpoint other thinking beings within range of its telepathy. ...
      An area that you can't reach with your telepathy isn't within range of your Mindsight.

    • The Benefit section:
      Benefit: A creature that has this feat can detect and pinpoint beings that are not mindless (anything with an Intelligence score of 1 or higher) within range of its telepathy. ...
      There's still no range for Mindsight that's distinct from the range of telepathy.

    • The Normal section:
      Normal: Telepathy offers no special ability to sense other minds. The creature has to know that a being is there ...
      If the normal ability of telepathy provides a limitation which the feat overcomes, what you get with Mindsight is a special ability of telepathy, and so its range still determines where the feat operates.
    No telepathy = no Mindsight.

  15. - Top - End - #165
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    Default Re: All Of The Cheese!

    Mindsight is not a special use of telepathy, it just happens to have the same range. A guy standing 20 feet away from you, even if he's immune to your telepathy, is still within its range, much in the same way that a ghost is within range of your arrows even though he is immune to them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
    \ˈgrā-tər \
    comparative adjective
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  16. - Top - End - #166
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: All Of The Cheese!

    Quote Originally Posted by kulosle View Post
    So, once again it's time for my favorite campaign. The killy campaign. This is when my DM tells us to make 5 gestalt characters that are all level 20. And he does his best to kill all of them. It's a one shot, that does actually have the story, but the funnest part is that we are allowed to use any, ANY, cheese we can come up with.

    rules
    Any thing that would usually need a DM ruling is ruled in our favor.
    can dual progress PrC
    32 point buy
    do not start the game with any buffs active
    all infinite loops must be done in game (like pun pun, who won't survive long enough to become pun pun.)
    feats can only be shuffled pre game if its to meat a prerequisite other wise i have to wait till in game
    can only use each race and PrC once
    resurrection spells can only be cast by the healer class. there will be no way of finding one. the only way we could resurrect a party member is if someone is a healer.


    Sooo the questions are: 1) what are the five most ridiculous builds people can think of? 2)what is the cheesiest loop holes out there?

    build thoughts i have so far.
    1) exploiting rainbow servant then mystic theurge for double leveling.
    2) i'm trying to think of a kobold build, maybe master spellthief
    3) factotum//archivist i may only take this to 11th level any ideas?
    4) trying to find a druid build that can squeeze in planar shepherd, war shaper, daggerspellshaper, and master of many forms.
    5) i was thinking something funny like a basket weaver. completely open to suggestions.
    wow i want to do this now.
    Last edited by guatamala; 2011-12-07 at 12:33 AM.

  17. - Top - End - #167
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: All Of The Cheese!

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Mindsight is not a special use of telepathy, it just happens to have the same range.
    How do you arrive at that conclusion, given the text of the feat? The Normal case is that telepathy offers no special ability to sense other minds, and Mindsight changes that.

  18. - Top - End - #168
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: All Of The Cheese!

    For the uses of this thread all rules are ruled in favor of the player. Thus for this thread's use mindsight would work in a AMF.

  19. - Top - End - #169
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    Dr.Orpheus's Avatar

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    Default Re: All Of The Cheese!

    Not as good as Planer Shepard or anything, but thrall of juiblex can polymorph self at will.
    Also you can get something with regeneration, an energy type, the final strike feat, and the diehard feat you can reduce your hp to -9 with the self mutilator quality in the BoVD. Then you become a being constantly exploding mess that will stun your opponent each round, deafen them, and deal them 30d6 damage (if your energy type is electricity for example). The rest of your efforts can be spent defending yourself from whatever bypasses you regeneration.
    Last edited by Dr.Orpheus; 2011-12-07 at 12:19 PM.
    "If you are after mere parlor tricks you will be sorely disappointed, for if I reach behind your ear, it will not be a nickel I pull out, BUT YOUR VERY SOUL!" The Venture Bros.

  20. - Top - End - #170
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    Default Re: All Of The Cheese!

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    How do you arrive at that conclusion, given the text of the feat? The Normal case is that telepathy offers no special ability to sense other minds, and Mindsight changes that.
    The text of the feat says that you gain a mindsight ability with the range of your telepathy. It says nothing at all about adding the ability TO the telepathy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  21. - Top - End - #171
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    Default Re: All Of The Cheese!

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    The text of the feat says that you gain a mindsight ability with the range of your telepathy. It says nothing at all about adding the ability TO the telepathy.
    I think flickerdart is technically correct. The description of "range" for spells in the player's handbook makes clear that it's definition is the maximum distance away at which the effect could possibly occur, rather than some more general test of whether or not the effect could occur. In other words, a fireball cast while you are stuck in a box might still technically have an 800' range.

    Interestingly, you can theoretically use this effect to do some spell shaping for area effect spells.

    So this means you can use an AMF to shutdown mindsight if within 10' of the source, but not otherwise, technically.

    However, I still expect most DMs would not let mindsight work anywhere that telepathy did not, as that just makes sense as a mechanic.

  22. - Top - End - #172
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: All Of The Cheese!

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    The text of the feat says that you gain a mindsight ability with the range of your telepathy.
    Ah, I see your error. You misread the within as the different preposition with.
    A creature that has this feat possesses innate telepathic ability that allows it to precisely pinpoint other thinking beings within range of its telepathy.
    "With" merely establishes an association; "within" establishes an associated limitation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart
    It says nothing at all about adding the ability TO the telepathy.
    Yes, it does; see the Normal specification of the feat.

  23. - Top - End - #173
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: All Of The Cheese!

    Lets just end that tangent now. There are other threads about it. Go to those to discuss it. What ever ruling benefits the players the most is the one we use.

    I like the unkillable build. But why ranger?

  24. - Top - End - #174
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    Default Re: All Of The Cheese!

    If all rulings favor the player, then damage immunity is as simple as persisting delay death (via fudging ocular spell or similar) and calling it a day. While it's active damage doesn't kill you. No trollbane, no searing spells, no nothin.' Next persist beastland ferocity, which allows you to fight normally despite being disabled or dying. For bonus fun, persist stone body and undermaster to be able to heal all your hit points every round. Though undermaster has a 500GP material component, at level 20 that's trivial. It would also require you to make countermeasures to stop the two spells that stone body makes you vulnerable to, but that's trivial (spellblades, persisting the spell immunity spell, etc).

    As for how you'll be able to kill other things? How awesome does gaining a breath weapon that simultaneously shoots piercing cold and searing fire damage sound? Read on!

    If you don't start with buffs active, immediately go to the safest place you can and use mage's mansion to prepare.

    Consider the following which, despite all the dipping, doesn't run afoul of multiclassing penalties.

    Wizard5/incantatrix10/mindbender1/loremaster1/archmage3
    Factotum1/wu jen1/paladin of tyranny or evil2/spellthief1/chameleon10/halruaan elder5

    Frog God's Fane: skill focus (pick one)
    Metamagic storm: transdimensional spell
    Otyugh hole: iron will
    Flaw: Arcane disciple: destiny
    Flaw: Skill focus: spellcraft
    Human: able learner
    1: Halruaan adept
    3: Spell thematics
    6: Spell focus
    9: Spell focus
    12: Mindsight
    15: Mother cyst
    18: Uncanny forethought
    Wu jen: Quicken spell
    Chameleon: floating bonus feat, keep as widen spell, change to crafting feats when you want for a day.
    Inca1: Extend spell
    Inca4: Searing spell
    Inca7: Persist spell
    Inca10: Ocular spell
    Loremaster: Spell mastery
    Wizard5: Maximize or empower spell, whichever one you don't take, grab a rod for it.
    Get piercing cold from a rod (available in Frostburn, they also double as +2 daggers, which is cool, but also drives up their cost).

    Incantatrix gets you its obscene persistomancy and metamagic reduction, and lots of metamagic feats.

    Mindbender for mindsight.

    Loremaster for a free feat (assuming you use Frog God's Fane to obviate the pain from the pre req feat)

    Archmage because it's awesome.

    Factotum+able learner to permanently have all skills cost 1 point and be able to max them at HD+3. Plus a few int synergy goodies, though not many.

    Wu jen because it gets you a metamagic feat.

    Paladin for divine grace. Very expendable, anything that grants feats is an alternative.

    Spellthief for master spellthief, if your DM rules that it works in such a way that it's actually useful to you.

    Chameleon gets you a floating +6 to a stat of your choice, and 6th level spellcasting from any divine and arcane lists. Virtually all spells you'll want to persist that aren't on the wizard list are 6th level or lower, so don't worry about a lack of level 9 casting here. I recommend casting a bunch of cleric and wizard spells at the start of the day. Then switch focus to get paladin and bard spells to cast and persist favor of the martyr, granting you daze immunity, among other things. Yep, celerity now has no drawbacks. Cast and persist beastland ferocity while you have bard spells, and anything else you've got a mind for. Then switch focus again to the druid spell list and anything else for your second focus the rest of the day, because with the druid spell list you get blizzard, which when combined with snowsight, is an excellent battlefield control combo. Your second focus could be used to boost your weakest save, if nothing else.

    Halruaan elder gets you circle magic. Circle magic rockets your caster level to 40. This will make dispelling your buffs with anything other than disjunction not viable. Also, when you cast spell resistance and persist it, with no other CL boosters, you're at SR 52. You could hit 60 easily if you add a few more CL boosters. Oh, and halruaan elder also gets you metamagic reducers. If your DM is crazy he might let it continue the spell progression of the chameleon, granting you 9th level spells. Otherwise have it advance wu jen. 4 simulacrums of yourself can participate in the circle magic.

    Additional:
    Persist shapechange, so you can dump all your physical stats and spend all your point buy stats on mental stats. Remember that changes to your con from polymorph and shapechange do change your max hit points. Not that hit points will matter. I recommend doing 8/8/8/18/15/15, then becoming venerable for 2/2/2/21/18/18

    Grab arcane disciple for the destiny domain, and persist choose destiny. You now get to roll 2d20 on all saves, attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks. It also gets you the immediate action warp destiny spell, which allows you to reroll a failed save, with an additional insight bonus equal to your caster level (which is obscenely high thanks to circle magic).

    Uncanny forethought is an excellent feat, be a silverbrow human so that you can cast arcane spellsurge as a swift action for more synergy with uncanny forethought.

    Mother cyst grants the necrotic empowerment spell. Persist it for +8 to dex, int, and wis. Among other things.

    Choose chronotyryn for your shapechange form. You can now take 2 standard, move, and swift actions per turn. With necrotic empowerment you'll have a total natural armor of 30. Persist scintillating scales to turn that into a deflection bonus.

    Persist friendly fire, and have an unseen servant floating nearby (within 30') at all times. All ranged attacks will now hit your unseen servant (which is immune to all non-area attacks) instead of you.

    This requires rule fudging and is feat intensive, but will be good fun (and remember that metamagic storm can grant you a practically free feat). Persist a maximized, empowered, transdimensional, and widened version of the dragon breath spell. Take your pick of a 30' cone or 60' line. Use a metamagic rod for one of those if you wish. Transdimensional means it can fire into things such as rope tricks and mage's mansions, and also hit things on the ethereal plane. Persist breath weapon substitution with the searing spell feat applied, to changed your damaged to searing fire damage. Note that you can't apply piercing cold or searing spell to the original spell because it has no elemental descriptor*. Now persist breath weapon admixture with piercing cold applied, via a rod of piercing cold. Voila, you have a breath weapon that deals 160+10d8, half searing fire and half piercing cold damage. If desired you could persist an additional cold admixture, too, for 160+10d8 piercing cold and 80+5d8 searing fire. Usable an unlimited times per day, though it will have the 1d4 round cooldown between uses. No SR, no attack roll, anything without evasion is doomed.

    *Unless you take snowcasting, but that's probably not worth a feat.

    Hummingbird familiar grants +4 initiative

    Persist heroics as many times as you've got a mind to, to get all the fighter feats that you want. Improved initiative is a good choice.

    Persist unicorn heart for another +4 to initiative.

    Though it adds quite a bit to your setup, you could add consumptive field to get a bonus equal to your caster level equal to half the CL you cast consumptive field at. So if you cast it at CL 50, it could get you another +25 to CL. That hard part is finding the cannon fodder to feed it.

    Persisting algid enhancement, choose destiny, and divine power means when you want to hit things with something involving an attack roll, you will.

    In summary, you'll only be vulnerable to disjunction, which is pretty much as invincible as it gets in 3.X
    Last edited by Hirax; 2011-12-08 at 02:06 PM.

  25. - Top - End - #175
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    Imp

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    Default Re: All Of The Cheese!

    Contingency set up to teleport you out of range if/when a disjunction is cast.

    That would probably save you at least 1 time. Just hope nobody preps Disjunction twice.

  26. - Top - End - #176
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    Default Re: All Of The Cheese!

    Fortunate Fate is a very nice Cleric spell, though I forget offhand what level it is and where it's from. Basically, it stays on you as a buff until you go below 0hp for the first time. At that point, it immediately expends itself to cast Heal on you, and if that results in you being above -10 HP at the end of it, you don't die.
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  27. - Top - End - #177
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: All Of The Cheese!

    This build sounds very interesting. I might have enough time to activate the buffs if I use him as my first character. The starting of the story line might take enough time for me to buff myself. Out of all the spells that grant you a safe house like rope trick, which is the safest?

  28. - Top - End - #178
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Heliomance's Avatar

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    Default Re: All Of The Cheese!

    Quote Originally Posted by kulosle View Post
    This build sounds very interesting. I might have enough time to activate the buffs if I use him as my first character. The starting of the story line might take enough time for me to buff myself. Out of all the spells that grant you a safe house like rope trick, which is the safest?
    They're all about as safe as each other. Mord's Magnificent Mansion is the nicest, though.

    Actually, build idea: If everything is ruled in favour of the players, you need to play a Shaedling. They're in the MM5, they're medium Fey with 4HD and 3LA, and they have this ability:

    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Manual 5
    Shadow Gossamer (Ex): As a swift action, a shaedling can generate a 15-pound or lighter item out of shadow gossamer, and it usually crafts a weapon just before attacking. A shaedling is proficient with any weapon it creates from shadow gossamer, and such weapons have a range increment 10 feet longer than usual. Shields constructed of this substance have their armor check penalty lessened by 1. Shadow gossamer implements dissipate to nothingness if they leave the hands of a shaedling for longer than 1 round.
    Don't see why this is awesome? It's not in what's said. It's in what's not said. Note the utter lack of any restriction on creating magic items with it.
    Any magic item you like as a swift action, as long as it weights less than 15 pounds? Sounds pretty awesome to me.

    They also have +8 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, and +6 Cha, and a 60-foot fly speed (good).
    Last edited by Heliomance; 2011-12-08 at 07:47 AM.
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  29. - Top - End - #179
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: All Of The Cheese!

    Hmm I have a feeling that the DM has something planned for these. I might just go with the Juggernaut just to be sure I can do it. Plus there isn't the vulnerable time when I have to replace my spells.

  30. - Top - End - #180
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: All Of The Cheese!

    What, no love for the vermin lord?

    Take 3 or so swarms of leeches, or other fine vermin, form a hivemind with them, and viola, 592 or so sorcerer levels. I believe there's a way to stack more units per square but I forget how. Note tha 3 swarms are conservative as I'm unsure how to deal with diagonal distance from other members of hivemind. You could have a sphere of like 4-6 swarms.
    Last edited by Demonic_Spoon; 2011-12-11 at 01:35 AM.

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