Did I do something wrong?

[Org]

Okay, so I had my first Pathfinder session today. I was playing a wizard, a mix of a conjurerand illusionist. The story was that we had to investigate the bad part of a town to find some evil spellcaster. We eventually find his tower and ascend. I say, stay here a moment guys, I have a plan. I usemy hat of disguise, making myself look like a holy paladin or something.I use light on my sword and use gost sounds to make it seem like harps are playing. I go up and confront the guy with two silent images. He is standing in a summoning circle with what looked like a corpse in the middle of like a wife of an npc we met earlier. I shout for him to stop. However he manages to see through my illusion, but one of my allies steps up and goes through the circle which snapped his connection and possibly sent him to another plane.

So, there we are,in a room with a dead girl and no proof for the mayor. Everyone kinda starts looting the room and whatnot, when I have an idea. I go and cut off the girls head so we can take her back as proof. Woops, looks like the cleric was about to check if she was dead. GM informs us she was alive, but now isn't. Woops. Two people start to freak out and blame me. I call them out on metagaming, because even though we handt k own she was dead, it looked like so give me a break. Girl with gun doesnt stand down, gives me a warning to put away my sword. I dont. She drops me to -5 HP. Ouch. The group is kinda flipping their **** now, and I am too. They almost leave me, but then dont and we kinda half fall/escape through a window. End of session.

But it still bothers me now. Yes, I chopped her head off, but I dont feel like the CHAOTIC EVIL party member, or so I remember her to be ce, flipped out. Did I do something terribly wrong, or were the others overreacting!

[Anxe]

Well I don't think assuming she was dead was that big a goof.

If she was dead cutting off her head was still stupid. The mayor is going to want to bury the girl's body intact. Why would he want just the head? He'd see it as mutilation of the corpse. If you didn't think you could transport the body, then you wouldn't really need any proof that she was dead. The mayor should just believe what you said.

So you did two stupid things on top of each other. Your character just committed manslaughter and corpse mutilation. It's definitely chaotic, but not evil since it was unintentional. And the other players have a right to be upset at your character and probably not want to adventure with him.

As for OOC upsetness... The DM should have just said that she was alive and shouldn't be decapitated.

[Org]

Bringing back the head is the sort of tropey-fantasy proof provider I stick too. Like if you were to slay an evil knight you might bring the head to the king or whatnot.

Edit: Clarity: The gunner was CE, I am Neutral IIRC.

[Zeofar]

Bringing back the head is the sort of tropey-fantasy proof provider I stick too. Like if you were to slay an evil knight you might bring the head to the king or whatnot.

Decapitation is usually considered a sign of disrespect. Hence why it's okay to do with evil things you killed, but it isn't typical in, say, any other situation.

[Coidzor]

Well, kind of odd that the cleric didn't do that immediately and everyone commenced to looting.

Kind of jerkish of the DM to not afford any kind of safety net there either, especially with what the cleric's player had in mind.

Sounds like you got scapegoated, really. Possibly schroedinger's victim'd too.

But, in general, heads are for outlaws and those who are to be punished. If you're recovering a murder vic, on the other hand, you generally bring back the whole thing.

[Xuc Xac]

If you want to prove that you defeated an evil monster or something, you can bring back its head. If you want to tell someone that his wife is dead, you can just come back and say "I'm sorry. Your wife is dead." You absolutely do NOT come back to some guy and say "Your wife is dead. SEE! Here's her head! No foolin' this time!"

[Org]

The head was to be used to scapegoat her as the sorcerer.

[Serpentine]

I think, based on your account, the biggest goof was the DM's: they didn't give your character an opportunity to realise the woman was still alive.

It was pretty dumb of you, out of character, to not think to check.
It was pretty dumb of your character, in-game, to not check - and it was a pretty bizarre idea anyway, which you companions may well have been justified in being disgusted and/or disturbed by.
It was pretty dumb of your companions to - apparently - assume malice when it was just stupidity.
But all that could've been mitigated if your DM had just said "wait, do a spot check first. Okay, you see some movement in the chest. Cleric, do a Heal check".

[prufock]

Not going to lie, cutting off someone's head without at least checking to see if they're dead was pretty foolish. Even if you have no ranks in Heal, checking to see if someone is breathing or has a heartbeat is only like a DC 10.

But the biggest problem here is the metagame one. The cleric was "about to" check her, but didn't. Since he/she didn't have time to do so, the DM shouldn't have told you that she was alive. If he hadn't made that goof, the rest of the party would have probably assumed as you did.

[Ziegander]

Explain to us again why, even if you thought the woman was dead, cutting her head off was a good idea, please?

[NikitaDarkstar]

I'd say the group has reasons to be upset with you, but in all honesty the entire situation is to blame on everyone. The cleric should have checked if she was still alive right away. You should have realized that cutting off a head is pretty darn disrespectful, the rest of the group didn't have to loot first, and the DM should just have slapped all of you in the face for being stupid/slow/to damn greedy, but since he didn't he's just as much to blame as everyone else.

I'd suggest that the next time you meet up you talk the situation over, come to some sort of understanding, possibly go back and say "hey these moments of stupidity didn't happen, it went like this instead." and move on.

[Shyftir]

I'm gonna say that if the DM described her as looking corpse-like he or she has equal blame share as you here.

[Cespenar]

I think, based on your account, the biggest goof was the DM's: they didn't give your character an opportunity to realise the woman was still alive.

This. There's a reason passive checks exist.

Also, actions don't happen instantly. When you say you're about to decapitate the girl, most of your group should be able to recognize the action before you complete it, and possibly can stop you.

DMing fail.

Edit: Hah, I just reread it and saw that the DM said afterwards that the girl was alive but now is dead. I up the verdict to an epic fail.

Edit 2: Minor unrelated note: The DM probably doesn't know that illusions don't offer a save before you interact with them as well. There's a chance that the wizard got a detection spell going, but my money is on it not being that.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

To Hell with retconning it. When your character wakes up, he explains he was only trying to help and why is everyone so mad at him? It's not like he did anything wrong.

What do you mean he shouldn't have cut her head off? You needed proof, didn't you? I mean, the man's not just going to take you at your word; that would be preposterous.

And now you keep doing things like this. When the other PCs start to give you "that look", you ask, "What? Not okay?" and then you make a big show of how patient you are, how tolerant you are, for putting up with their silly little rules so that they'll stop complaining.

They'll remember this campaign for the rest of their lives.

[Heliomance]

To Hell with retconning it. When your character wakes up, he explains he was only trying to help and why is everyone so mad at him? It's not like he did anything wrong.

What do you mean he shouldn't have cut her head off? You needed proof, didn't you? I mean, the man's not just going to take you at your word; that would be preposterous.

And now you keep doing things like this. When the other PCs start to give you "that look", you ask, "What? Not okay?" and then you make a big show of how patient you are, how tolerant you are, for putting up with their silly little rules so that they'll stop complaining.

They'll remember this campaign for the rest of their lives.

I like this idea. Turn it into a character quirk

[elpollo]

Did the DM ever say "She is dead"? If not then yes. If so... well, let's just say I'm glad you'll never be delivering me any bad news.


Seriously, her head? You couldn't have carted her whole body back on a horse or something?

[RandomNPC]

DM needs to read up on the illusions you were using, anytime an NPC of mine has some detect spells going it's because the party has a reputation for pulling this kind of thing.

DM needs to communicate the difference between corpse and corpse like a lot better.

Party needs to chill out of character, in character however, as long as they stay in character any amount of flipping out (If they know she was alive) would make sense.

That being said, the first response to your post I completely agree with. Later on you said she was being scapegoated as a bad guy, so as long as your character isn't good and didn't know she was alive, the action was fine.

Also, I love Viktyrs idea about making it a quirk, catch a pickpocket, go to lop his arm off at the elbow, let the party stop you. Catch a liar, go for his tongue, someone flees from the law, try to take a leg mid-shin. It's a great character tweak, and I wana steal it for a character someday...

[boomwolf]

The head was to be used to scapegoat her as the sorcerer.

Reasoning right here folks.

Yea, your action is STRICTLY chaotic-evil, no questioning it. heck even some of my chaotic-evil characters would have trouble with this...

Even if she WAS dead, framing the victim in order to make things easier on yourself is really, really wrong...and considering she was alive, even if you didn't know (and it's your fault not to make sure), makes the whole deal that much worse.

Most of my characters would be willing to kill over this, and I include chaotic and evil (and chaotic-evil) in that list...

You did something wrong...big time...I hope you seriously see how wrong it is or something with your OOC moral standing is seriously flawed...

[nedz]

Reminds me of an old joke

Barbarian: "Cleric, are you going to Raise Fred?"
Cleric: "Better make sure Fred is dead before I bother with a Raise"
Barbarian chops off Fred's Head
Barbarian: "OK, you can raise him now"


Back to the point: Are you playing a low Int Wizard ?
Or maybe you dumped Wis or something?
Its a typical SNAFU

[Steward]

Even if she WAS dead, framing the victim in order to make things easier on yourself is really, really wrong...and considering she was alive, even if you didn't know (and it's your fault not to make sure), makes the whole deal that much worse.

Yeah, when I saw that I was kind of baffled. Cutting off the head of a murder victim to 'prove' that she's dead is ridiculous, from an OOC and an IC perspective. Cutting off her head so you can frame her for her own murder is... a pretty stupid IC decision unless you're trying to portray an amoral or evil character. Certainly it's not a logical action for someone who is supposed to be more or less a decent person.

[Ziegander]

To Hell with retconning it. When your character wakes up, he explains he was only trying to help and why is everyone so mad at him? It's not like he did anything wrong.

What do you mean he shouldn't have cut her head off? You needed proof, didn't you? I mean, the man's not just going to take you at your word; that would be preposterous.

I want to know exactly what we're talking about, from Org, before I make a judgement call on what happened. Things aren't adding up, and there are clearly details and context left out of his posts that we need to be aware of in order to know how to respond to this situation.

1) Org says his group is investigating a bad part of town to find an evil spellcaster.

2) Org says his group is in a room with a "dead" girl and no "proof" for the mayor.

3) Org says he cuts the head off of the dead girl.

4) Org says his group all turns on him, starts yelling, etc...

5) Org says that the head was to be used to scapegoat the girl as the sorcerer.

NOW. There are plenty of holes in this account. For example, what proof did the group not have for the mayor? He hasn't told us they needed any sort of proof for anything. Did Org or didn't he discuss with the group cutting her head off before he simply walked up and did it? Is Org's character chaotic evil? What alignments are the other characters in Org's group?

I can fill in the blanks to my questions myself, but I can't know if I'm correct. If the group was sent by the mayor to locate and slay some evil spellcaster in the bad part of town and if Org didn't discuss the plan of scapegoating the girl with her severed head as the evil spellcaster, and if Org or any of his group are not evil, then, well, cutting the head off of the girl was a pretty insanely bad course of action to take.

[Wildefox]

The head was to be used to scapegoat her as the sorcerer.

That's ... that's pretty evil. "We'll just make it look like the victim did it! And people will believe us because ... I cut off her head?"

[Org]

Okay, lets see. I would think that we would need proof to confirm our slaying of the spellcaster. However, we didn't; he escaped into another plane when we stepped into his circle. So, we have a room with a corpse that was never described by the DM (We were using maptools. There was blood everywhere. She was in the middle of the circle. Not moving. Not talking), and no dead wizard or live wizard. We need to get some proof so...yeah, head. I did not discuss it which was bad yes. True neutral mercenary wizard. Most of the group is chaotic neutral and one is chaotic evil.

[Ziegander]

I did not discuss it which was bad yes.

And that's really the big deal. Remember, MOST PEOPLE are True Neutral. Do you think most people would randomly cut the heads off of people just so they could get a paycheck? I don't. They might consider it, sure, but I'd say that most people would decide on a different course of action.

If you had talked it over with the group, chances are they would have said, "no, that's crazy. you're crazy," and then they could have determined that the girl was alive. Then you could have returned to the mayor with the barely living girl, told him how you encountered the spellcaster but he got away, and you'd have a witness to corroborate your story. You might not get paid, but you also wouldn't have killed an innocent person and involved your allies in murder without their consent. So, yes, you did something very wrong.

[MickJay]

All other possible 'fails' aside, you have already identified the "wrong" thing you did - you should've consulted rest of the party before taking action. Are they okay with the idea to frame the victim? Are they okay with chopping off her head? Acting on impulse, on your own, tends to lead to more bad situations in RPGs than anything else.

[navar100]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%27s_funniest_joke

[Coidzor]

All other possible 'fails' aside, you have already identified the "wrong" thing you did - you should've consulted rest of the party before taking action. Are they okay with the idea to frame the victim? Are they okay with chopping off her head? Acting on impulse, on your own, tends to lead to more bad situations in RPGs than anything else.

Not giving the rest of the party even a chance to react or notice this on the part of the DM is equally bad, however. Even Gygax would, y'know, ask people if they were sure they wanted to do something.

[Steward]

Okay, lets see. I would think that we would need proof to confirm our slaying of the spellcaster. However, we didn't; he escaped into another plane when we stepped into his circle. So, we have a room with a corpse that was never described by the DM (We were using maptools. There was blood everywhere. She was in the middle of the circle. Not moving. Not talking), and no dead wizard or live wizard. We need to get some proof so...yeah, head. I did not discuss it which was bad yes. True neutral mercenary wizard. Most of the group is chaotic neutral and one is chaotic evil.

Didn't your character realize that the mayor would probably notice that the head of the 'sorcerer' (a man) looks an awful lot like the head of a woman who went missing from his town recently?

I get what you were trying to do but I don't understand how cutting off the girl's head would have been convincing proof. I don't even understand why you needed physical proof anyway at this point. If you were hired to kill the spellcaster, you haven't actually done that yet. If your goal was only to find him, well, couldn't you prove to the mayor that you did that by showing him the evil sorcery tower with all of the evil sorcery stuff inside (including the human sacrifice on the altar)?

Because the wisdom of your idea is so ambiguous, it's really important for you to have gotten the go ahead from other party members first. If it were me, I would not have attacked you IC but I would have been baffled (both IC and OOC) by your decision. Your plan doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me and I feel as if something like that should really be put to the entire party to make sure that they understand what your plan is.

The DM definitely should have stopped you to ask you if you were sure though.

[Mando Knight]

We need to get some proof so...yeah, head. I did not discuss it which was bad yes. True neutral mercenary wizard.

So. You don't have proof for doing what you didn't, you see a bloodied woman on the ground, apparently unconscious. Your reaction is to cut off the head of the woman (without checking her vitals) and present it as the proof you needed.

That isn't TN Mercenary behavior. TN generally assumes you have at least the "y'know, maybe we should check to see if the girl's alive" bit, and maybe some respect for the recently departed, as well as some modicum of enlightened self-interest. A mercenary gets the job done, and in order to ensure that he can continue his mercenary ways, an intelligent or effective mercenary gets the job done right. Giving people a false impression that you did the job correctly is simply bad business.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

True neutral Chaotic Evil mercenary wizard. Most of the group is chaotic neutral and one is chaotic evil.

I have to agree with the others here. While you may feel you have a reason for your actions, it's a spontaneous, ill-conceived, duplicitous, self-serving action (in-character, that is...nothing against you personally here ) that can only result in misery and/or pain for those around you and, in this case, cost someone her life.

Definitely Chaotic Evil there.