Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 31
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Omnipotent_One's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2004

    Default "Evil" Magic Items?

    Since when can non-intelligent magic items have alignments? I don't think the creator's alignment makes any difference at all.

    Don't understand why Elan is so opposed to free items.
    Credit goes to Sakura Akaega for the Darker than Black avatar.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Draconi Redfir's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Gobbotopia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: "Evil" Magic Items?

    If they are made by sacrificing the souls of angels to the demons of the underworld and drinking the blood of newborn babies, i think that constitutes as evil.


    The item itself may not be evil, but the process that went into making it was, so that counts.
    Avy by Thormag
    Spoiler
    Show


  3. - Top - End - #3
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Chicagolandia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: "Evil" Magic Items?

    Because it was probably made with a ritual where the acts involved WOULD make the ritual-er have an evil alignment (if they didn't already)? If I gave you a XBox 720, but I got it by slaughtering a million puppies, would you go "oh sure, thanks!" or be totally disgusted by the fact I just killed a million cute, fluffy puppies?
    Can only thank GitP for being so good for so long.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Solaris View Post
    If it helps, think of me as the Agent from Serenity. Just not that good a fighter. Also, I have a mustache.
    Quote Originally Posted by kpenguin View Post
    I'm probably hilarious far off, aren't I?
    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    This is not... the greatest story Tolkien ever wrote. No... This is just a tribute.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracon1us View Post
    don't feed the troll...

    A pile of thanks piled on other thanks to Teddy for photorealistic avatar.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2011

    Default Re: "Evil" Magic Items?

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    If they are made by sacrificing the souls of angels to the demons of the underworld and drinking the blood of newborn babies, i think that constitutes as evil.


    The item itself may not be evil, but the process that went into making it was, so that counts.
    Right, just like vegetarians and meat. I'm sure that if there were a way of obtaining it without death being involved, they'd have no problem.

    So it's a lot like Tarquin offering a vegetarian a turkey sandwich and them denying it, opting for tofurkey instead. Tastes the same, but one was made without killing someone

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    NerfTW's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007

    Default Re: "Evil" Magic Items?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnipotent_One View Post
    Since when can non-intelligent magic items have alignments? I don't think the creator's alignment makes any difference at all.

    Don't understand why Elan is so opposed to free items.
    He's referencing this strip, as in an item created through evil means. Not to mention taking an item that was gained through an evil act. Not that the item itself has an alignment.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Kish's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2004

    Default Re: "Evil" Magic Items?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnipotent_One View Post
    Since when can non-intelligent magic items have alignments?
    Check the eleventh panel, and Tarquin's implicit concession that yes, that actually is how he made the Ring of Regeneration he's offering.

    For that matter, check how he actually got the carpet he's giving Elan.

    Don't understand why Elan is so opposed to free items.
    Elan is not Haley. Would Haley take a Ring of Regeneration made by torturing someone to death? I don't know, but at least she's established as greedy. Elan? Isn't.
    Spoiler
    Show
    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Redmond, WA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: "Evil" Magic Items?

    Holy and Unholy Water(Or heck, Holy and Unholy weapon enhancements) are obviously Good or Evil, but they're not intelligent. Skeletons and zombie are evil, but not intelligent. Something doesn't need to be intelligent to have an alignment.

    It's not unreasonable, then, to have a Ring of Regeneration be Evil if it was created through Evil means. The act of regenerating may not be evil, but the method of creating it was.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RedKnightGirl

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    California
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: "Evil" Magic Items?

    The above is all true. Accepting an item that was created by an evil ritual or torture or created by an evil person makes you at least somewhat tolerant of there evil ways.

    The million puppy question was very enlightening

    Oh mutant sheep do I have to pay shipping on that X-box?
    Last edited by denthor; 2011-12-04 at 10:23 PM.
    9 wisdom true neutral cleric you know you want me in your adventuring party


  9. - Top - End - #9
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    with an e's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2009

    Default Re: "Evil" Magic Items?

    I think Elan is referring more to the method of making rather than the alignment of the item (or the associated energy type of the item), though we do know that items in the OotS can acquire alignment based properties through Xykon's crown.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2011

    Default Re: "Evil" Magic Items?

    THat's also not to say if the ring of regeneration was possibly intelligent, any magic item could theoretically have intelligence if it's maker so desired. While we can't confirm or deny it there is every possibility that the particular ring of regeneration Tarquin offered Elan was sentient, and evilly alighned. Again can't confirm or deny if the ring was unintelligent so we'll probably never know.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    NerfTW's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007

    Default Re: "Evil" Magic Items?

    Quote Originally Posted by with an e View Post
    I think Elan is referring more to the method of making rather than the alignment of the item (or the associated energy type of the item), though we do know that items in the OotS can acquire alignment based properties through Xykon's crown.
    We don't know that for sure. That's just Durkon's assumption. And while Xykon did say it was a completely non magical item, there's still the fact that he bothered to steal just that out of a magical museum, and Rich made a point of having him take it back from Roy.

    So far, I'm thinking it's not just a crown, despite Xykon's statements. The evil aura makes it even more likely.

    But still, the strip was referring to the method used to make the item, NOT it's alignment or any sort of aura.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracarot View Post
    THat's also not to say if the ring of regeneration was possibly intelligent, any magic item could theoretically have intelligence if it's maker so desired. While we can't confirm or deny it there is every possibility that the particular ring of regeneration Tarquin offered Elan was sentient, and evilly alighned. Again can't confirm or deny if the ring was unintelligent so we'll probably never know.
    As Elan states in the strip, he very definitely was not referring to some possible intelligence, simply the method (torturing someone to death) used to create it.
    Last edited by NerfTW; 2011-12-04 at 10:34 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Banned
     
    Ancalagon's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: "Evil" Magic Items?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnipotent_One View Post
    Don't understand why Elan is so opposed to free items.
    It's an ethical question.

    But discussing that comes down to "Is it morally justified to take and use a magic ring for good that was made with evil means and selfish motivations?" and those discussions are forbidden.

    To cut it short and do without that discussion: Elan (whatever the reasons!) thinks it's plainly wrong to use such an item and as thus refuses it.

    You could say that his refusal of the ring was actually the refusal of his father's ways (and if the first says something symbolic about the latter is something we could actually discuss). I think it is, so it's not actually as much about the thing itself but more about the concepts behind its creator.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2007

    Default Re: "Evil" Magic Items?

    Transference. We often attribute qualities to inanimate objects based on their origins and usages, for example people will oo and ahh over George Washingtons sword or express sadness in places where great tragedies took place. In our world this is a psychological process, in D&D its often a very real phenomenon.

    How would you feel about using a computer powered by the heart of a forsaken child? Sure you can tear up the battlegrounds with it but it screams when you overclock it..

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Essex, England
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: "Evil" Magic Items?

    Quote Originally Posted by NerfTW View Post
    So far, I'm thinking it's not just a crown, despite Xykon's statements. The evil aura makes it even more likely.
    If I remember the rules correctly, an item in the possession of a strongly evil character for a long period of time will develop an evil aura. This is what happened with the crown.

    Now, as to any powers, Roy assumed it has some sort of powers since Xykon went to the trouble of stealing it. However, Xykon doesn't think so. He just stole it because ot "looked Badass".
    Warning: This posting may contain wit, wisdom, pathos, irony, satire, sarcasm and puns. And traces of nut.

    "The main skill of a good ruler seems to be not preventing the conflagrations but rather keeping them contained enough they rate more as campfires." Rogar Demonblud

    "Hold on just a d*** second. UK has spam callers that try to get you to buy conservatories?!? Even y'alls spammers are higher class than ours!" Peelee

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location

    Default Re: "Evil" Magic Items?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancalagon View Post
    It's an ethical question.

    But discussing that comes down to "Is it morally justified to take and use a magic ring for good that was made with evil means and selfish motivations?" and those discussions are forbidden.
    Really?
    I know we can't bring real-life historical examples or religious beliefs into it but we can still debate ethics and morality (at least insofar as it pertains to the characters in the strip). Otherwise we'd have to get rid of all the "Is Belkar Still Evil?" and "Was Roy Morally Justified In Attacking Miko?" threads and this forum would be cut down to half the size.
    If a tree falls in the forest and the PCs aren't around to hear it... what do I roll to see how loud it is?

    Is 3.5 a fried-egg, chili-chutney sandwich?

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2008

    Default Re: "Evil" Magic Items?

    Don't understand why Elan is so opposed to free items.
    Because his conscience outweighs his pragmatism. Really, it's Elan, of course his conscience outweighs his pragmatism! Everything outweighs his pragmatism, including his puppet!

    Otherwise we'd have to get rid of all the "Is Belkar Still Evil?" and "Was Roy Morally Justified In Attacking Miko?" threads and this forum would be cut down to half the size.
    I'm pretty sure we already DID get rid of all the 'Was Roy Morally Justified In Attacking Miko" threads. And if we haven't gotten rid of the "Belkar - Still Evil?" threads, well, darn, I wish we would already!

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: "Evil" Magic Items?

    Also, in the Book of Vile Darkness, there are rules for crafting magical items and bypassing exp and gold costs by using the souls of sacrificial victims which are irrevocably annihilated by the process.

    It's about as evil as you can get in D&D. Not just killing a person, but annihilating their immortal soul, preventing both ressurection and the rightful afterlife. The items created radiate evil for a reason.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Virginia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: "Evil" Magic Items?

    Many people believe that if you buy a product that was researched using animal cruelty, you support animal cruelty. Thats elans belief, he want to be good, like Roy and Haley, but he wants to be good in the "right" way.... a personality trait he shares with another character in the strip (although that one wants to be "evil")

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Valyrian's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Germany
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: "Evil" Magic Items?

    Does it really matter if the ring (or any other item) has a D&D alignment? Not every aspect of the world can be expressed in game terms. What counts is that Tarquin obtained his item(s) by making people suffer, and Elan wants no part in that.

    Seems pretty logical and exactly what a well played Good character would do (arguing that the rules don't say the item is evil so it's okay to use it is something the paladin from Durkon's previous party in OotPCs would do, and we know how the Giant thinks about that).

    For Haley, I don't know. She's greedy, and also pretty pragmatic. Also, only "good-ish".
    Last edited by Valyrian; 2011-12-05 at 10:56 AM.
    "I'm particularly fond of our priesthood of the Benefactor, since our main duties seem to be sitting around and pretending that the Benefactor doesn't exist. When we're not stealing things, that is."
    Locke Lamora, The Gentleman Bastard Sequence

    The pun is mightier than the sword!

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    The Land of Cleves
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: "Evil" Magic Items?

    Because his conscience outweighs his pragmatism. Really, it's Elan, of course his conscience outweighs his pragmatism! Everything outweighs his pragmatism, including his puppet!
    And, for Elan, his conscience outweighs pretty much everything else. Remember, this is the same guy who refused to kill Nale because he's the good twin, not the neutral twin.
    Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
    As You Like It, III:ii:328

    Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
    Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Virginia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: "Evil" Magic Items?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    And, for Elan, his conscience outweighs pretty much everything else. Remember, this is the same guy who refused to kill Nale because he's the good twin, not the neutral twin.
    You know, Elan would have made an excellent Paladin, if his Alignment restrictions and serial un-seriousness didnt allow it. His most evil act has been trying to smite Roy with the power of Banjo the Clown.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Banned
     
    Ancalagon's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: "Evil" Magic Items?

    Quote Originally Posted by hewhosaysfish View Post
    Really?
    As I got it, anything that goes beyond D&D's alignment system is a question of morals and as such forbidden. Therefore, discussing if Belkar was evil is ok, discussing if that is ok in general is not as soon as you go beyond what the characters of the comic think.

    Ask a mod for further clarification if you think you need it, I really do not want one jumping from the shadows calling this "Vigilante Moderating" or whatever.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Banned
     
    Dr.Epic's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2010

    Default Re: "Evil" Magic Items?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnipotent_One View Post
    Since when can non-intelligent magic items have alignments? I don't think the creator's alignment makes any difference at all.

    Don't understand why Elan is so opposed to free items.
    Yeah, how dare Elan turn down magical items offered by someone who is evil and said magical items may or may not carry an alignment stigma. He should just totally be a munchkin and not have any principles or morals.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: "Evil" Magic Items?

    Some items have an alignment despite not having sentience:

    Nine Lives Stealer
    This longsword always performs as a +2 longsword, but it also has the power to draw the life force from an opponent. It can do this nine times before the ability is lost. At that point, the sword becomes a simple +2 longsword (with a hint of evil about it). A critical hit must be dealt for the sword’s death-dealing ability to function, and this weapon has no effect on creatures not subject to critical hits. The victim is entitled to a DC 20 Fortitude save to avoid death. If the save is successful, the sword’s death-dealing ability does not function, no use of the ability is expended, and normal critical damage is determined. This sword is evil, and any good character attempting to wield it gains two negative levels. These negative levels remain as long as the sword is in hand and disappear when the sword is no longer wielded. These negative levels never result in actual level loss, but they cannot be overcome in any way (including restoration spells) while the sword is wielded.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Beholder

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location

    Default Re: "Evil" Magic Items?

    Quote Originally Posted by rbetieh View Post
    You know, Elan would have made an excellent Paladin, if his Alignment restrictions and serial un-seriousness didnt allow it. His most evil act has been trying to smite Roy with the power of Banjo the Clown.
    Chaotic acts are against the Paladin code too...in some interpretations, they're equally reprehensible.
    Whadda ya mean, Orcs got levels too?

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Virginia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: "Evil" Magic Items?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andorax View Post
    Chaotic acts are against the Paladin code too...in some interpretations, they're equally reprehensible.
    I agree, thats the "serial unseriousness" part.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: "Evil" Magic Items?

    in 2nd ed, both Chaotic acts, and Evil acts, made you fall.

    But, only Evil acts made you fall permanently- it was possible to atone for Chaotic ones.

    So- they were not quite equal.

    In 3.0-3.5 ed, Chaotic acts aren't specified as causing a Fall- though "gross violations of the paladin's code" as well as Evil acts, are- as is changing alignment.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Kish's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2004

    Default Re: "Evil" Magic Items?

    And, in 2ed, a paladin could associate freely with Chaotic characters, but not with Evil ones--just like in 3.xed.

    Good takes precedence over Law for paladins. Has since 2ed at the latest.
    Spoiler
    Show
    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Bulldog Psion's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Wisconsin, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: "Evil" Magic Items?

    The item itself doesn't need to have an alignment if it was acquired or created under horrifying circumstances.

    Consider, if someone was willing to give you a free car -- but they revealed, at the same time, that they had gained it by torturing the previous owner grotesquely over the course of three days and finally running them over with the vehicle. You probably wouldn't be quite as willing to accept it as you would, say, a car that you won in a raffle. The car itself isn't evil, but it sure comes with a monolithic weight of guilt attached to it.
    Spoiler
    Show

    So the song runs on, with shift and change,
    Through the years that have no name,
    And the late notes soar to a higher range,
    But the theme is still the same.
    Man's battle-cry and the guns' reply
    Blend in with the old, old rhyme
    That was traced in the score of the strata marks
    While millenniums winked like campfire sparks
    Down the winds of unguessed time. -- 4th Stanza, The Bad Lands, Badger Clark

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Occasional Sage's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Seattle, WA, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: "Evil" Magic Items?

    The best model for an intrinsically-aligned item that I can think of is the cursed item rules, and specifically the minor drawbacks that don't impede the item functioning, just... flavor it.
    Avatar by the incomparable araveugnitsuga!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •