[Star Wars] Suggest me a system

[Kiero]

I’m considering running Star Wars in my break game slot, but I’m stuck on the usual question of what system. Its one of those holy grails, a good system for Star Wars.


So first some notions of what matters to me (and thus how I’ll be selling this) to my group:

• I like the approach of the KotOR games; while there’s some grand, sweeping major event going on in the background, the focus is actually more immediately on what’s affecting a particular sector of space or collection of worlds. We don’t skip about from one session to the next not really caring what happens in the places we visit, given we’ll be somewhere else next session. Rather given the short window (6-12 sessions, in all likelihood) I want there to be a sense of continuity and involvement in events. This won’t be some aimless, free-wheeling jaunt where the PCs see what happens when the arrive on any given world. Instead, I’ll be discussing a premise/situation with the players at chargen and they’ll be pitched right into that.
• I’m primarily interested in the following eras: KotOR (ie that of the two video games and comic series), Rise of Empire/Clone Wars, The Dark Times (ie the time between the trilogies).
• The PCs will be Big Damned Heroes from the off, I don’t do any of that tramp freighter trading/smuggling nonsense that seemed to be popular with WEG/D6. They won’t be outright criminals or villain-types, though neutrals compelled to do the right thing works. That said I don’t need any special rules for Dark Side or the like.
• The Jedi are possibly important, but I don’t want a group full of nothing but Jedi. I could even countenance running something without any at all if it’s both era-appropriate and no one wants to play one. In this regard I don’t want ridiculously over-complicated rules for the Force (meaning no Control/Sense/Alter with 50+ powers), nor do I want having Force powers to come at heavy cost compared to anything else (see WEG/D6).
• I don’t care about space battles, not beyond acting as background contexts in which things the players are doing is taking place. Not even terribly bothered about having vehicle rules in any great detail, most of the players are ambivalent about space combat/dogfighting.
• Same again goes with surface-based battles; as environments in which the PCs are acting, but not something we run through the system. We had good results with this approach in another game.

So on to system-talk. I want something crunchier than Wushu, but lighter than GURPS/HERO/D20 (note I’m much more interested in the lighter end of that spectrum). Some mechanical vagaries:

• No random chargen. It can have the option, so long as it actually has structured chargen, since I won’t use random chargen.
• No super-detailed point buy, meaning no accounting at the level of GURPS/HERO. Coarser-grained point by a la Cinematic Unisystem is fine.
• Either no linear probabilities in the core mechanic (ie using 1dn or percentiles), or something that is easily hacked to use a multiple die mechanic.
• No dice pools bigger than 5-6 dice.
• No lists of more than 20 things; skills, Force powers, whatever. Or at least lists that are easily consolidated.
• No laundry lists of equipment, again the no bigger than 20 rule.
• Preferably something which actually has a system for conflicts beyond the physical.
• Also preferably unified mechanics, not different little subsystems for everything.

Ruled out from the off:

• FATE – I love FATE, but we’re playing DFRPG as our main game, I’d like to use something else to avoid any feelings of same-y-ness mechanically. If it comes to it, I can put together a hack, but that’s my last resort.
• WEG/D6 – played it in the past, can’t stand the system.
• White Wolf anything – don’t like fistfuls of d10s or pretty much anything about the way WW design games
• GURPS/HERO/D20/Burning Wheel/Burning Empire – too crunchy – that includes Saga Edition
• Savage Worlds – my group don’t like it, so not a go-er
• Classic Unisystem – too crunchy (note I haven’t ruled out Cinematic Unisystem)
• WFRP/Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader/Deathwatch/Black Crusade – too crunchy and uses percentiles. I also don’t like the systems.

Ruled in from the off (but don’t consider this an exhaustive list, there’s plenty of things I’m sure I’ve not heard of):

• PDQ – Not really paid much attention to it, but I’ve heard it has a funny damage system. Anyone able to elaborate on that specifically, and the system more generally? How easily could you handle the Force?
• Cinematic Unisystem – I’d have to hack the core mechanic (1d10 to 2d6-1 or something?) and apply some Skill-based caps on Success Levels, but it could work. Anyone had any success running Star Wars with it? How did you handle the Force?

What's out there?

[LibraryOgre]

Risus, maybe? You might also look at modifying something like Chronica Feudalis...

[Autolykos]

How about Wushu?
Rules light - check.
Nonlinear Probabilities - check.
Conflict resolution beside combat - check.
Non-random character generation - check.

If you don't like a lot of rules, Wushu is one of the best systems IMHO. It is more suited to a narrativist playstyle, but that's why you're looking for a rules-light system in the first place, right?

[Xefas]

Off the top of my head:
Lady Blackbird if you feel like a bit of word-hacking (as in, your hacking will involve mostly noun-changing). All free to download, but you'll probably want both the Lady Blackbird pdf, along with the Blackbird Companion, which deconstructs the system for easy hacking. You might also want to look at Jedi Blackbird, which is a premade Star Wars module built using that system.

It's fairly light, though definitely not as light as Wushu or Risus.

In a Wicked Age if you want that nice episodic feel of the movies. Session-to-session, perspective will shift - some central character may still be there, but the cast will likely have a few differences every time. Players can play antagonists, and it can be easily run GMlessly.

Once again, you'll either have to google some Star Wars Oracles for the system, or hack some nouns yourself.

But, obviously my favorite choice. Blazing Rose! I've been roleplaying folks who stab people to death, conquer worlds, save universes and so on, fairly consistently for near 10 years now. New perspectives are refreshing - perhaps you agree? Why not run a Star Wars game of romance? Sure, you're taking down yet another galaxy-spanning empire of doom (who hasn't?), but from the perspective of folks who really care about getting the boy/girl/etc in the end most of all.

Again, this is a system that can have players on both sides. One person can play a Sith Lord burning star systems to ash in his efforts to woo his beloved, and another can be the valiant hero mustering an army to inflict truth and justice on said Sith, also to woo said potential significant other.

And, best of all, no hacking needed.

[Kiero]

Risus, maybe? You might also look at modifying something like Chronica Feudalis...

Risus is too light, of equal heft to Wushu, really.

I looked at CF for something else a while back, I'll have another look.

How about Wushu?
Rules light - check.
Nonlinear Probabilities - check.
Conflict resolution beside combat - check.
Non-random character generation - check.

If you don't like a lot of rules, Wushu is one of the best systems IMHO. It is more suited to a narrativist playstyle, but that's why you're looking for a rules-light system in the first place, right?

I wrote Wushu Open Reloaded.

Wushu isn't meaty enough, for my group, for anything longer than a one shot.

Off the top of my head:
Lady Blackbird if you feel like a bit of word-hacking (as in, your hacking will involve mostly noun-changing). All free to download, but you'll probably want both the Lady Blackbird pdf, along with the Blackbird Companion, which deconstructs the system for easy hacking. You might also want to look at Jedi Blackbird, which is a premade Star Wars module built using that system.

It's fairly light, though definitely not as light as Wushu or Risus.

Jedi Blackbird is a good spot, I didn't know about that.

It seems designed for a one-shot, rather than extended game, but I'm getting the feeling you could adapt for a more traditional "players make some players, get involved in an agreed scenario" type setup too.

In a Wicked Age if you want that nice episodic feel of the movies. Session-to-session, perspective will shift - some central character may still be there, but the cast will likely have a few differences every time. Players can play antagonists, and it can be easily run GMlessly.

Once again, you'll either have to google some Star Wars Oracles for the system, or hack some nouns yourself.

Mmmm, can't say anything I've seen about it has ever really impressed me. I'm no hardcore traditionalist, but nor do a lot of indie games do much for me.

But, obviously my favorite choice. Blazing Rose! I've been roleplaying folks who stab people to death, conquer worlds, save universes and so on, fairly consistently for near 10 years now. New perspectives are refreshing - perhaps you agree? Why not run a Star Wars game of romance? Sure, you're taking down yet another galaxy-spanning empire of doom (who hasn't?), but from the perspective of folks who really care about getting the boy/girl/etc in the end most of all.

Again, this is a system that can have players on both sides. One person can play a Sith Lord burning star systems to ash in his efforts to woo his beloved, and another can be the valiant hero mustering an army to inflict truth and justice on said Sith, also to woo said potential significant other.

And, best of all, no hacking needed.

Sorry, none of that appeals to me in the slightest as a GM.

[jackattack]

I was in a five-year Star Wars campaign running Hero System. We had a great time.

[DropsonExistanc]

I don't know much about Palladium's Rifts system, but it's about the only system I actually know of that you haven't already ruled out

I know that there's a metric butt-load of options for it (wiki lists 80 published), however I suspect it may be rules-heavy.

You seem to know exactly what you want out of this game; perhaps you might look at creating your own system?

[Diskhotep]

•PDQ – Not really paid much attention to it, but I’ve heard it has a funny damage system. Anyone able to elaborate on that specifically, and the system more generally? How easily could you handle the Force?

If you are familiar with FATE, you could handle the PDQ system just fine. It works on a 2d6+bonus system, with conflict (physical, social, or other) handled through opposed rolls. Like FATE, characters are built on a system of descriptions, but in PDQ the aspects ("Qualities") replace skills and provide bonuses.

When you make an opposed roll in conflict, you choose one or more Qualities that fit with what you are doing and add the bonuses to your roll. Your opponent can resist with an appropriate Quality+roll. If you beat your opponent, you apply the difference as damage to the loser's Qualities (not necessarily the one used to resist). If all of your Qualities are reduced below Poor (-2) Rank, you are Zeroed Out (unconditional surrender/knocked out/captured) and your opponent may choose your fate (including death).

The GM is encouraged to write down the Quality that caused you to Zero Out and use it as a Story Hook in an upcoming session.

As far as the Force goes, the easiest way to handle it would be to just have a Force Quality that a starting character could take (at the cost of an additional rank to compensate for the extra power and versatility). I would stick to Force powers actually seen in the movies and ignore most of the EU/other RPG ridiculousness that made Jedi characters completely overshadow others in the group. So enhanced senses/agility, TK/telepathy, mental domination, and precognition.

I highly recommend picking up the completely free PDQ# rules and reading them. They are easy to use, especially if you are familiar with FATE. I also highly recommend the PDQ settings The Zantabulous Zorcerer of ZO, Truth & Justice, and Swashbucklers of the Seven Skies.

[sailor_grenoble]

Two years ago, we played Star Wars using the system of Qin, slightly modified to account for the differences in setting.
You can have Hero-type characters (the PCs and some NPCs) have access to the Taos (particularly the more "mundane" Taos like the Taos of the Sudden Lightning, the first one or two levels of other Taos) and give the Jedi access to the more showy Taos (like the Tao of the 6 directions, ...) and the Jedi Arts mystical ability (mostly internal alchemy, with a bit of divination thrown in for good measure, and a few invented techniques).
It was real fun.

[satorian]

There is a lot (read:almost everything) you don't like, but you aren't very clear about what you don't like about these things. I would recommend just using the KOTOR video game system (which is admittedly close to d20, but you never really said what you don't like about d20, so...) for 6-12 sessions, but you said no d20.

What don't you like about WhiteWolf? What don't you like about True20?

More importantly, is there anything you do like?

[mint]

PDQ really is quite good. It could easily handle the force. You build your character by coming up with with arbitrarily broad Qualities. The nature of a Quality casts a "shadow" defining (vaguely) the set of elements it affects.

Example: The Quality "Pilot" could be relevant to any or all of flying an aircraft, holding your liquor, geography, how airports operate, good hotels, ancillary science stuff relevant to flying. And in a Star Wars setting, it could easily extend to repairing spacecraft and pirate or smuggling activity in an area.

Similarly, a Force Quality would be used to do stuff that the force can do.

For 6-12 sessions I would stick to FATE but maybe hack spirit of the century. Your players may not be psyched about learning a new system over the holidays and Star Wars is basically pulp already.

[Knaight]

Fudge: It's a lot like FATE, but different enough not to get old when you also have a DFRPG game.

Chronica Feudalis: 20 skills. 4 subsystems, all minimal. Fast character creation mechanics. Nonlinear. It is essentially a FATE/Step Die System/Minimal Life Path system combined into one, and is very, very good. You know this already, as I've recommended it to you before - in the same post I recommended FATE.

Warrior Rogue and Mage/Resolute Adventurer and Genius: The rules here are minimalist in many ways. However, the genius of them is how well they handle archetypes - Warrior/Resolute, Rogue/Adventurer, and Mage/Genius are all attributes, the first set being for the fantasy incarnation, the second for the pulp. You roll these, plus a small skill bonus (WR&M has this being more minor) for a handful of binary skills, for everything. If a task is something within the purview of the Warrior/Resolute archetype, roll Warrior/Resolute; if it is within Mage/Genius, roll Mage/Genius. Star Wars loves archetypes, Star Wars is pulp, Star Wars is fantasy, stick it in space and you're done.

[LibraryOgre]

I don't know much about Palladium's Rifts system, but it's about the only system I actually know of that you haven't already ruled out

Trust me, given his list, he ruled them out.

*Random Chargen, with no point-buy option.
*ALL linear probabilities (d20 for combat, d% for skills)
*Damages tend to shoot for buckets o' dice.
*Palladium loves its laundry lists of skills, powers, and equipment.
*Doesn't have real systems for anything other than skills or combat.
*Has different systems for skills and combat.

[mabriss lethe]

I've been working on something that might be close to what you want.

Character Gen takes no time at all.
-4 attributes (10 pts to spend on them, minimum 1 per attribute)
-Brains
-Brawn
-Skill
-Will

-Arechetypes(10 pts to spend)
Works in a manner similar to risus Cliches. Choose whatever archetypes are appropriate for your game. max cap at creation is 4 pts for an archetype.

-Extras (10 pts to spend)
-Use these points to purchase further advances in attributes and archetypes, or to purchase equipment in the same vein as ADRPG's Artifact and creature worksheet.

Dice mechanic is a modified version of Hollow Earth Expedition's Ubiquity system. Roll # dice (of any sort) equal to attribute+archetype and all even results count as successes (GM sets # of successes needed for a task.) A character can auto-succeed if he only needs a # of successes = to 1/2 the # of dice rolled) Contested rolls excluded. Any die roll for 10+ dice is automatically reduced to 5 auto successes then roll the remaining dice in excess of 10.

That's the gist of it anyway. If that's not up your alley, good luck.

[Delwugor]

MiniSix which may be too light for you but does have a SW like setting written in it.

But a Super Hero system would be very easy to convert over.
Bash! would probably work and they have a Sci-Fi version, but the lookup chart may throw people off.
ICONS would also work well and it does have a point buy alternative character creation.
Speaking of Steve Kenson M&M would IMO be the best to convert over. Yes a d20 system but it doesn't feel that way in play. IMO you can never go wrong playing in any game Steve works on.

[Kiero]

I was in a five-year Star Wars campaign running Hero System. We had a great time.

Did you not read the part where I said HERO is way too crunchy?

I don't know much about Palladium's Rifts system, but it's about the only system I actually know of that you haven't already ruled out

I know that there's a metric butt-load of options for it (wiki lists 80 published), however I suspect it may be rules-heavy.

You seem to know exactly what you want out of this game; perhaps you might look at creating your own system?

Mark Hall said it all, way too heavy and not even remotely close to any of my criteria. Not only that, I've never seen anything reported about Palladium to suggest I'd be interested in it.

If you are familiar with FATE, you could handle the PDQ system just fine. It works on a 2d6+bonus system, with conflict (physical, social, or other) handled through opposed rolls. Like FATE, characters are built on a system of descriptions, but in PDQ the aspects ("Qualities") replace skills and provide bonuses.

When you make an opposed roll in conflict, you choose one or more Qualities that fit with what you are doing and add the bonuses to your roll. Your opponent can resist with an appropriate Quality+roll. If you beat your opponent, you apply the difference as damage to the loser's Qualities (not necessarily the one used to resist). If all of your Qualities are reduced below Poor (-2) Rank, you are Zeroed Out (unconditional surrender/knocked out/captured) and your opponent may choose your fate (including death).

The GM is encouraged to write down the Quality that caused you to Zero Out and use it as a Story Hook in an upcoming session.

As far as the Force goes, the easiest way to handle it would be to just have a Force Quality that a starting character could take (at the cost of an additional rank to compensate for the extra power and versatility). I would stick to Force powers actually seen in the movies and ignore most of the EU/other RPG ridiculousness that made Jedi characters completely overshadow others in the group. So enhanced senses/agility, TK/telepathy, mental domination, and precognition.

I highly recommend picking up the completely free PDQ# rules and reading them. They are easy to use, especially if you are familiar with FATE. I also highly recommend the PDQ settings The Zantabulous Zorcerer of ZO, Truth & Justice, and Swashbucklers of the Seven Skies.

I'm liking the look of PDQ a great deal, it has some parallels with FATE, but also distinct differences.

How might I go about making a damage track rather than the "reduce your Forte" business? I'm thinking of two tracks, Health and Composure, with the option to take negative Fortes to absorb damage.

The movies aren't my standard of Star Wars, I'm looking at the KotOR games and Clone Wars.

Two years ago, we played Star Wars using the system of Qin, slightly modified to account for the differences in setting.
You can have Hero-type characters (the PCs and some NPCs) have access to the Taos (particularly the more "mundane" Taos like the Taos of the Sudden Lightning, the first one or two levels of other Taos) and give the Jedi access to the more showy Taos (like the Tao of the 6 directions, ...) and the Jedi Arts mystical ability (mostly internal alchemy, with a bit of divination thrown in for good measure, and a few invented techniques).
It was real fun.

How many of these Taos are there? What did you do to adapt the system to Star Wars?

There is a lot (read:almost everything) you don't like, but you aren't very clear about what you don't like about these things. I would recommend just using the KOTOR video game system (which is admittedly close to d20, but you never really said what you don't like about d20, so...) for 6-12 sessions, but you said no d20.

What don't you like about WhiteWolf? What don't you like about True20?

More importantly, is there anything you do like?

I'm not clear because I can't be bothered to explain (yet again) all the reasons I don't like the systems I don't like. Suffice to say, if it's on the list I'm not interested in it, or anything like it.

There's hundreds of systems out there, some I've never even heard of before. The whole point of a brain trust like a forum is that people might have seen something I haven't. Like Jedi Blackbird, recommended upthread, for example.

I'm looking for the less-common systems I haven't encountered, not the more common ones which I most likely have.

PDQ really is quite good. It could easily handle the force. You build your character by coming up with with arbitrarily broad Qualities. The nature of a Quality casts a "shadow" defining (vaguely) the set of elements it affects.

Example: The Quality "Pilot" could be relevant to any or all of flying an aircraft, holding your liquor, geography, how airports operate, good hotels, ancillary science stuff relevant to flying. And in a Star Wars setting, it could easily extend to repairing spacecraft and pirate or smuggling activity in an area.

Similarly, a Force Quality would be used to do stuff that the force can do.

PDQ is rapidly becoming the front-runner here, I just need to sit down and spend some time with it.

For 6-12 sessions I would stick to FATE but maybe hack spirit of the century. Your players may not be psyched about learning a new system over the holidays and Star Wars is basically pulp already.

Nah, they're quite comfortable learning new systems for short games. That's why we like our "break" games, it's to take a complete breather from whatever the current main game is (and they generally last a couple of years). We're not playing this over the holidays, but that wouldn't make any difference anyway.

Fudge: It's a lot like FATE, but different enough not to get old when you also have a DFRPG game.

Chronica Feudalis: 20 skills. 4 subsystems, all minimal. Fast character creation mechanics. Nonlinear. It is essentially a FATE/Step Die System/Minimal Life Path system combined into one, and is very, very good. You know this already, as I've recommended it to you before - in the same post I recommended FATE.

Warrior Rogue and Mage/Resolute Adventurer and Genius: The rules here are minimalist in many ways. However, the genius of them is how well they handle archetypes - Warrior/Resolute, Rogue/Adventurer, and Mage/Genius are all attributes, the first set being for the fantasy incarnation, the second for the pulp. You roll these, plus a small skill bonus (WR&M has this being more minor) for a handful of binary skills, for everything. If a task is something within the purview of the Warrior/Resolute archetype, roll Warrior/Resolute; if it is within Mage/Genius, roll Mage/Genius. Star Wars loves archetypes, Star Wars is pulp, Star Wars is fantasy, stick it in space and you're done.

Is there a free version of Fudge that doesn't involve me building my own system?

I'll have to have another look at CF.

Has anyone done a Star Wars hack of WRaM already?

Trust me, given his list, he ruled them out.

*Random Chargen, with no point-buy option.
*ALL linear probabilities (d20 for combat, d% for skills)
*Damages tend to shoot for buckets o' dice.
*Palladium loves its laundry lists of skills, powers, and equipment.
*Doesn't have real systems for anything other than skills or combat.
*Has different systems for skills and combat.

Bingo. That's without getting into the massive negative PR the creator manages to do every time he opens his mouth.

MiniSix which may be too light for you but does have a SW like setting written in it.

But a Super Hero system would be very easy to convert over.
Bash! would probably work and they have a Sci-Fi version, but the lookup chart may throw people off.
ICONS would also work well and it does have a point buy alternative character creation.
Speaking of Steve Kenson M&M would IMO be the best to convert over. Yes a d20 system but it doesn't feel that way in play. IMO you can never go wrong playing in any game Steve works on.

Mini Six isn't too light, it's too like WEG/D6.

BASH - lookup charts is a definite deal-breaker.

How does ICONS work?

M&M is way too crunchy.

[Kiero]

For anyone still following, I think I'm going to go with PDQ.

[Xefas]

How does ICONS work?

It's a FATE hack for Superheroes. Standard stuff - skill ladder, Aspects, Fate Points, and so on. It has a mechanic similar to the Dresden Files' "Refresh", where the more superpowers you have, the less Fate Points you have. Superpowers are dealt with like very specific skills.

It's pretty good for superheroes, although not my first choice for Star Wars.

[beyond reality]

If you're interested I've done a very, very light conversion of star wars to PDQ# (the most recent version). It can be found here

[Knaight]

Is there a free version of Fudge that doesn't involve me building my own system?

I'll have to have another look at CF.

Has anyone done a Star Wars hack of WRaM already?

Yep. The full game is free, available here

It is a truly great game, and the sort you would like.

Not that I know of. That said, it would be pretty minimal, even including a slight modification to the die system to make it less linear (it isn't completely linear due to having an exploding dice mechanic).

[LibraryOgre]

Bingo. That's without getting into the massive negative PR the creator manages to do every time he opens his mouth.

A great many problems would be solved by Kevin not interacting with the public, yes.

However, I'm now kinda interested in a SW/CF hack. The mentor-driven character creation system would be somewhat interesting to see.

[TheThan]

There is always Star Wars saga edition.

It's D20 so I dunno how you feel about that system. But it really does do the universe good. Unfortunately I believe its out of print. Mechanically its sort of a proto-4E with a lot of elements from D20 modern. Personally I believe its the best version of the D20 system to date, but that's just my opinion.

[Jayabalard]

You've ruled out GURPS (and similar), but I'd suggest taking one of them and treating it as a framework rather than a game; strip it down to a light enough set of rules and build up your own rules lite system that lacks the large lists of things (the rule of 20).

[Kiero]

There is always Star Wars saga edition.

It's D20 so I dunno how you feel about that system. But it really does do the universe good. Unfortunately I believe its out of print. Mechanically its sort of a proto-4E with a lot of elements from D20 modern. Personally I believe its the best version of the D20 system to date, but that's just my opinion.

As I said in the OP, played it, didn't like the level of rules-referencing we had to do in play. Neat spin on D20, but still ultimately a D20 game.

You've ruled out GURPS (and similar), but I'd suggest taking one of them and treating it as a framework rather than a game; strip it down to a light enough set of rules and build up your own rules lite system that lacks the large lists of things (the rule of 20).

Why build something for myself when there are light systems out there (like PDQ which I've settled on) which do the job out of the box? In particular, why build something for myself out of a system that doesn't share any of my design goals?

[Jayabalard]

Why build something for myself when there are light systems out there (like PDQ which I've settled on) which do the job out of the box?

That seems kind of obvious to me: because you ruled out one offering as not meaty enough. Building something for yourself lets you hit exactly the compromise you want.

If you've found something you like, that's great. If not, I think that building it from "system" that's actually a "framework" might get you the most of what you want.

In particular, why build something for myself out of a system that doesn't share any of my design goals?

Really? out of the box with the basic combat rules:

• It wouldn't have random chargen.
• It doesn't have linear probabilities in the core mechanic
• It doesn't have dice pools bigger than 5-6 dice.
• It wouldn't have laundry lists of equipment
• It has a system for conflicts beyond the physical.
• It has unified mechanics, not different little subsystems for everything.

...That's most of your list.


Once you strip it down a bit, it meets

• It doesn't need to have super-detailed point buy
• It wouldn't have lists of more than 20 things;

[Anxe]

Paranoia? It might work. I don't know much about the other options that you're considering, but I figured I'd throw that one out there.