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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Ways to Counter Mindsight

    How can one counter the Mindsight feat? Assuming a Wizard dipped into Mindbender and then used their 6th level feat for Mindsight, how would you avoid his/her detection abilities?

    Are there any items/feats/skills/spells that can circumvent Mindsight? Assume from an ECL 6 perspective please.

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    Default Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight

    One could argue that the Slayer's Cerebral Blind does this. It is pretty much the only thing that does; the case for anything else is extremely poor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight

    First of all, Lords of Madness (the book it comes from) implies in the Illithid section that undead are immune to it, when they state that Illithids hate undead because (among other things) their psionic detection methods don't find them. This suggests that immunity to mind effecting protects you. This may be RAI... but note that by RAW, immunity to mind affecting doesn't protect you. So, that's something. But if the DM allows it, then Necropolitans could be immune.

    There's a PrC in Fiendish Codex that makes telepathic static. This might also help, creating a blind spot in Mindsight's detection area that would hide a whole party.

    And of course anything mindless (like zombies, skeletons, and golems) automatically bypasses it. So do enemies that just stay out of the 100 foot range (many archers, long range casters, etc).

    But other that that... it's pretty darn tough to get around. Really the solution is not to get in range.

    JaronK

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    Default Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight

    Self-Lobotomy.



    What are the circumstances of the mindsight you are trying to avoid?

    Are you a DM designing encounters to challenge a Wizard player?

    Are you a player trying to get through a challenge the DM has set up with a mindsight Wizard?

    Or are you trying to off an uppity fellow player that has mindsight?
    Last edited by Elric VIII; 2011-12-07 at 04:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight

    Does your version of telepathy require line of effect? If so, full cover will remove you from mindsight.
    Despair favours the status quo. It is a luxury we cannot afford. ~ Andrew Nikiforuk

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    Default Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight

    RAW, telepathy ignores line of effect. But it would make sense for it to be blocked by the same things that block many divinations, such as lead or a foot of stone.

    One option is to hide among others of the same type and int score. Hiding the Barbarian amongst a bunch of stupid humanoids, for example.

    JaronK

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    Default Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight

    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    One option is to hide among others of the same type and int score. Hiding the Barbarian amongst a bunch of stupid humanoids, for example.
    Hurr hurr, ICWYDT

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
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    Default Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    One could argue that the Slayer's Cerebral Blind does this. It is pretty much the only thing that does; the case for anything else is extremely poor.
    As per the other thread, Antimagic field on the sensor should work. That's a specialty tactic, because you must get very close without being observed. It makes Silent Antimagic Ray by a caster of level 32 worth considering.

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    Default Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight

    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    There's a PrC in Fiendish Codex that makes telepathic static. This might also help, creating a blind spot in Mindsight's detection area that would hide a whole party.
    Hellbreaker doesn't do any of that. It just blocks the telepathy of anyone within 20ft.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    As per the other thread, Antimagic field on the sensor should work. That's a specialty tactic, because you must get very close without being observed. It makes Silent Antimagic Ray by a caster of level 32 worth considering.
    As per that same thread, I've specified why that doesn't actually work.
    Last edited by Flickerdart; 2011-12-07 at 04:25 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight

    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    RAW, telepathy ignores line of effect. But it would make sense for it to be blocked by the same things that block many divinations, such as lead or a foot of stone.

    One option is to hide among others of the same type and int score. Hiding the Barbarian amongst a bunch of stupid humanoids, for example.

    JaronK
    I'm not doubting that that's true, but would love to have the source showing that telepathy ignores line of effect. Can you help?
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    Default Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight

    Cerebrex (Dragon 317, Dragon Compendium) gets telepathic immunity at lvl 5. Sadly the earliest you could do this lvl 10.

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    Default Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight

    Quote Originally Posted by Waker View Post
    Cerebrex (Dragon 317, Dragon Compendium) gets telepathic immunity at lvl 5. Sadly the earliest you could do this lvl 10.
    Mindsight is not a form of telepathy. It is a detection ability similar to blindsense.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Mindsight is not a form of telepathy. It is a detection ability similar to blindsense.
    While it does function similarly to Blindsense it still is just an extension of Telepathy.
    Normal: Telepathy offers no special ability to sense other
    minds. The creature has to know that a being is there to communicate
    with it telepathically
    If you are somehow immune to Telepathy you should be immune to Mindsight.

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    Default Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight

    Quote Originally Posted by Waker View Post
    While it does function similarly to Blindsense it still is just an extension of Telepathy.
    How do you figure? If you read the feat you'll see that its only connection to Telepathy is that it shares the range.
    Last edited by Flickerdart; 2011-12-07 at 05:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
    \ˈgrā-tər \
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    1. Describing basically the exact same monster but with twice the RHD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight

    Slayer6 does not grant immunity to mindsight unless you also think that mind blank does. It's fairly obvious that slayer6 and slayer 9 are supposed to give a slayer continuous mind blank, they just broke it up incrementally. They way the 6th level ability is worded, you could make an argument that it also foils regular eyesight, which is certainly another device that reveals location.

    Telepathic Immunity (Su): A Cerebrex of 5th level is immune to all forms of telepathy or mind reading. She may suppress and reactivate this immunity at will, as a free action.
    Debatable. I'd rule yes in a game regardless of a RAW interpretation just for balance. edit: when I say balance, not just because mindsight is powerful, but because cerebrex is a half caster progression class that loses CL on odd levels, meaning you need to dump 3 levels of spell progression if you want the ability.

    Superior invisibility does the trick, in my opinion, due to the following part:

    ...concealing the subject from all senses except touch.
    The problem, of course, is that the rest of the spell text confuses the issue, and forces you to make an argument that the lists of things it blocks wasn't meant to be exhaustive.
    Last edited by Hirax; 2011-12-07 at 05:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    How do you figure? If you read the feat you'll see that its only connection to Telepathy is that it shares the range.
    Well, the fact that Telepathy is the requirement, the range is the same as that of telepathy and the second part that I quoted above talking about how Telepathy doesn't allow you to sense other minds. Not to mention the obvious RAI from the whole bit.

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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight

    Quote Originally Posted by Toliudar View Post
    I'm not doubting that that's true, but would love to have the source showing that telepathy ignores line of effect. Can you help?
    Line of Effect simply never says it effects telepathy, and nothing in game naturally blocks it (other than rare magic and PC effects). Basically, the default rule is you can telepathically talk to anyone within range... no rule counteracts this.

    It's the same reason the Line of Effect rules don't necessarily block hearing... you can hear through a big sheet of paper just fine, because no rule says otherwise... even though you can't see through it (if it's dark paper, I guess) and line of effect is blocked.

    JaronK

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    Default Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight

    Quote Originally Posted by Waker View Post
    Well, the fact that Telepathy is the requirement, the range is the same as that of telepathy and the second part that I quoted above talking about how Telepathy doesn't allow you to sense other minds. Not to mention the obvious RAI from the whole bit.
    Rapid Shot is a prerequisite for Manyshot. Their range is the same too - the range of your bow. However, Manyshot is not reliant on Rapid Shot in any way. Your logic does not follow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight

    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    Line of Effect simply never says it effects telepathy, and nothing in game naturally blocks it (other than rare magic and PC effects). Basically, the default rule is you can telepathically talk to anyone within range... no rule counteracts this.

    It's the same reason the Line of Effect rules don't necessarily block hearing... you can hear through a big sheet of paper just fine, because no rule says otherwise... even though you can't see through it (if it's dark paper, I guess) and line of effect is blocked.

    JaronK
    Marvellous - thanks! Although that would seem to apply to scent as well. Some interesting possibilities there - being able to smell through a wall.
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    Default Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Rapid Shot is a prerequisite for Manyshot. Their range is the same too - the range of your bow. However, Manyshot is not reliant on Rapid Shot in any way. Your logic does not follow.
    Are you actually trying to argue that Mindsight has nothing to do with Telepathy aside from it being a requirement and your argument to counter me is talking about archery? I'll reply but I'm gonna be half-hearted about it.
    Rapid Shot is indeed a requirement for Manyshot, you know what else is a requirement to use either of those feats though? A ranged attack.
    Mindsight repeatedly makes mention of Telepathy in the flavor text
    innate telepathic ability
    , benefits
    within range of its telepathy.
    and normal section. The normal section specifically notes what Telepathy normally can't do. Your argument that it's just a new kind of Blindsense is mentioned once. Blindsense is mentioned most likely to give the players a concept they are familiar with.

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    Default Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight

    On page 78 of Lords of Madness, there is a list of effects and how they interact with the elder brain's ability to detect creatures through telepathy. In summary:
    • Null psionic field will prevent the elder brain from detecting minds within. Assuming that psionics-magic transparency is in effect, so will antimagic field.
    • Mind blank prevents detection.
    • Nondetection can prevent detection, although there is a caster level check involved; in this case, the CL of the elder brain is equal to HD.
    • Suspend life prevents detection, since the elder brain cannot detect corpses.
    • Defenses that specifically protect against scrying, mind-reading, clairsentience and divination do not work (which is inconsistent with the ruling on nondetection, but I'm just telling you what the book says).


    RAW, none of this is relevant to Mindsight at all. However, the elder brain's telepathic awareness is all but identical to Mindsight, and I think it would be reasonable for a DM to houserule that the same defenses apply.
    Last edited by The_Snark; 2011-12-07 at 06:21 PM.
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    Default Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight

    Actually, from reading it, I think Cloud Mind should work:

    First, you are invisible and inaudible to the creature. It cannot even detect your presence by means of blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense. It cannot pinpoint your location by any means.

    Second, the subject remains unaware of your actions, provided you do not make any attacks or cause any obvious or directly threatening changes in the subject’s environment. If you attack the subject creature, the effect ends.
    The disadvantage being, of course, that you have to get in close range first, and that the creature has to fail a save.
    Last edited by Eldan; 2011-12-07 at 06:37 PM.
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    Default Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight

    You guys are overthinking this. Darkstalker.

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    Default Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight

    Quote Originally Posted by Toliudar View Post
    Marvellous - thanks! Although that would seem to apply to scent as well. Some interesting possibilities there - being able to smell through a wall.
    When the rules don't cover something, real world rules apply. So, scent through walls would apply as it does in the real world (as such, the permeability of the wall would be the real question... scent wouldn't go through a solid stone wall, but it would easily get through a looser log cabin wall). We don't have those rules for telepathy though, due to the lack of real world telepathy.

    @Viktyr: Darkstalker only counters specific senses (Blindsight, Blindsense, Scent, Tremorsense). It has no effect here, sadly. And it was printed in the same book, so this is unlikely to be an oversight.

    @The_Snark: I'd agree with that from a RAI perspective. Not RAW, but seems reasonable. Also, the nondetection thing is completely arbitrary, but there you go.

    JaronK

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    Default Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight

    Flickerdart is both right and wrong because the text is not fully written out. Instead more information is attempted to be crammed into a smaller amount of space resulting in curmudgeon pointing out the 'normal:' text.

    If this text is part of the rules, then where telepathy is impeded mindsight is also impeded (but as he rightly pointed out) would still continue to that telepathy's full range. If that part is not part of the rules flickerdart is completely right and ... nothing can stop mindsight.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Snark View Post
    On page 78 of Lords of Madness, there is a list of effects and how they interact with the elder brain's ability to detect creatures through telepathy. In summary:
    • Null psionic field will prevent the elder brain from detecting minds within. Assuming that psionics-magic transparency is in effect, so will antimagic field.
    • Mind blank prevents detection.
    • Nondetection can prevent detection, although there is a caster level check involved; in this case, the CL of the elder brain is equal to HD.
    • Suspend life prevents detection, since the elder brain cannot detect corpses.
    • Defenses that specifically protect against scrying, mind-reading, clairsentience and divination do not work (which is inconsistent with the ruling on nondetection, but I'm just telling you what the book says).


    RAW, none of this is relevant to Mindsight at all. However, the elder brain's telepathic awareness is all but identical to Mindsight, and I think it would be reasonable for a DM to houserule that the same defenses apply.
    I find it telling that the same book chose not to make use of this feat. A polymorphed spellweaver would do much better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Rapid Shot is a prerequisite for Manyshot. Their range is the same too - the range of your bow. However, Manyshot is not reliant on Rapid Shot in any way. Your logic does not follow.
    How do you know? It seems to me that any real practical case that would block the first would block the second aside from their trivial differences in actions/arrows at hand/et

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    Default Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    As per that same thread, I've specified why that doesn't actually work.
    I misinterpreted what you said then---I thought the claim was that mindsight is an Ex ability that goes to telepathy range irrespective of obstacles like AMF that block telepathy. This appears correct, RAW.

    But while mindsight may be Ex, it has a prerequisite which is Su. If a caster level 32 AM-ray hit the mindsight target from range 105', the prerequisite would no longer be satisfied, which knocks out the mindsight feat. This also appears correct by RAW.

    An alternative version of this logic is: if a fighter takes strength damage putting their strength below 13, they can no long power attack.

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    Default Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight

    Quote Originally Posted by PlzBreakMyCmpAn View Post
    How do you know? It seems to me that any real practical case that would block the first would block the second aside from their trivial differences in actions/arrows at hand/et
    When you are Slowed, you cannot use Rapid Shot, but you can use Manyshot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight

    (Picking up this discussion from another thread.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    If you read the feat you'll see that its only connection to Telepathy is that it shares the range.
    It shares more than the range. Here's what the feat says:
    • The header:
      A creature that has this feat possesses innate telepathic ability that allows it to precisely pinpoint other thinking beings within range of its telepathy. ...
      An area that you can't reach with your telepathy isn't within range of your Mindsight.

    • The Benefit section:
      Benefit: A creature that has this feat can detect and pinpoint beings that are not mindless (anything with an Intelligence score of 1 or higher) within range of its telepathy. ...
      There's still no range for Mindsight that's distinct from the range of telepathy.

    • The Normal section:
      Normal: Telepathy offers no special ability to sense other minds. The creature has to know that a being is there ...
      Because the normal ability of telepathy provides a limitation which the feat overcomes, what you get with Mindsight is a special ability of telepathy, and so where your telepathy operates (or not) still determines where the feat operates.
    No telepathy = no Mindsight.

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    Default Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight

    I'm not very keen on AMF and similar being a good counter to mindsight for different reasons. The sensory perception granted by mindsight is much the same as eyesight in how it operates, per the text. If you saw (with regular eyesight) a 20' diameter area of magical darkness walking around, would you be suspicious? To me, walking around with an AMF is an equivalent action against someone with mindsight. You (if you had mindsight) would notice a 20' bubble that shuts off your eyesight as much as you'd notice a 20' bubble that shut off mindsight, in my opinion. You wouldn't know anything about the contents, of course, but you'd still notice the bubble of darkness or antimagic.

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    Default Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight

    I'm not inclined to agree. Mindsight is not as comprehensive as real sight; it doesn't let you perceive areas, it just pinpoints thinking beings. To extend your analogy, darkness is the natural state of things. The entire world is dark, except for thinking creatures, which register as little pinpoints of light. A ten-foot bubble without any thinking creatures in it isn't inherently unusual, any more than a patch of darkness in a dark cave would be.

    Now, if you sense a creature suddenly winking out on your mindsight, or if you see a person but can't sense them with their thoughts, then you'd know something's up. But I don't think the field alone would register.
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