Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us

[Morph Bark]

Oh, nice! For some reason, I only remembered the Dark Companion giving a -2 penalty to AC.

So let's see. Hexblade's Curse is -2, Aura of Menace is -2, Dark Companion is -2, and Blackguard is -2, for a total of -8 to all saving throws! (And only one of them is preventable...with a saving throw!)

Geez...if only there was a class that was all about debuffing.

Don't forget to have the Unseelie Fey template for Winter Chill.

There is a reason why one of the detailed build in my self-guide is Hexblade 4/Paladin of Tyranny 2/Blackguard 3 (with Paladin of Tyranny using an ACF to get Cha to AC instead of saves). The reason is that it is awesome. Debuffing, massive saves, Mettle and so on. Heyooo!

Add a PrC that adds Divine Grace back in (Witch Hunter?) and maybe a level of Battledancer if your Cha is very high, so you can just ditch armor if you want. Only thing it then needs is SR. Make it a Karsite with the Mage Slayer feats, use LA buyoff and no spellcaster will be able to stop you too easily.

[hex0]

Add a PrC that adds Divine Grace back in (Witch Hunter?)

I was going to mention this as well. In core there is of course only Paladin and Sorcerer, but you can be a better Sorcadin without taking Paladin in the first place. This may depend on what level you are starting at though.

Like if you are starting at level 10 it would be better to play Cloistered Cleric 1/Sorcerer 7/Prestige Paladin 2 (fractional BAB though) and have 6 bab, cast as a 7th level Sorcerer and 2nd level Cleric (and have domains to swap), than play a traditional Sorcadin.

Witchhunter also improves you spellcasting as well, but has hard requirements.

Needs the rest of the classes for completeness. Factotum 3 being one of my favorite dips.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

I disproved the master spellthief silliness in my Round Two of that Arcane Dil

[dextercorvia]

Like if you are starting at level 10 it would be better to play Cloistered Cleric 1/Sorcerer 7/Prestige Paladin 2 (fractional BAB though) and have 6 bab, cast as a 7th level Sorcerer and 2nd level Cleric (and have domains to swap), than play a traditional Sorcadin.

I find this doubtful. You've missed 3 casting levels or Sorcerer instead of the traditional 2. This is particularly pronounced beginning at the level you did. Your BAB is worse by three as well, meaning later iteratives. This build will never get ninths or the 4th iterative, meaning it fails the first screening for an effective Gish.

[hex0]

I find this doubtful. You've missed 3 casting levels or Sorcerer instead of the traditional 2. This is particularly pronounced beginning at the level you did. Your BAB is worse by three as well, meaning later iteratives. This build will never get ninths or the 4th iterative, meaning it fails the first screening for an effective Gish.

Crap you are right.

How about this: Play an Outsider (or find another way to get all Martial Weapons) Sorcerer 6/Knight Phantom 1/Abjurant Champion 1/Witch Hunter 1/Abjurant Champion 4/Witch Hunter 1/Knight Phantom 6 will get you 17 bab, light armor casting, cha to saves, and 18th level sorcerer casting.

[dextercorvia]

Crap you are right.

How about this: Play an Outsider (or find another way to get all Martial Weapons) Sorcerer 6/Knight Phantom 1/Abjurant Champion 1/Witch Hunter 1/Abjurant Champion 4/Witch Hunter 1/Knight Phantom 6 will get you 17 bab, light armor casting, cha to saves, and 18th level sorcerer casting.

Doesn't Knight Phantom require some cruddy feats for prereqs? I don't have 5N, but I seem to remember some mounted combat feats.

Remind me again where Witch Hunter is from.

[MeeposFire]

Doesn't Knight Phantom require some cruddy feats for prereqs? I don't have 5N, but I seem to remember some mounted combat feats.

Remind me again where Witch Hunter is from.

Oriental Adventures.

[dextercorvia]

Oriental Adventures.

Is that the one that loses a casting level at first, but gets Divine Grace, full BAB and 4/5ths casting?

[MeeposFire]

Is that the one that loses a casting level at first, but gets Divine Grace, full BAB and 4/5ths casting?

I believe so.

[hex0]

Is that the one that loses a casting level at first, but gets Divine Grace, full BAB and 4/5ths casting?

Full bab, 2 good saves, Divine Grace at first...and messed up casting and bonus feats after that over 10 levels. Seriously they ran out of ideas for the PRC and the requirements are weird too.

Knight Phantom is online. Requires Still Spell which isn't great but is better than Mounted Combat by far.

[Novawurmson]

Excellent resource, for the DM and player alike :D

[kulosle]

Something worth mentioning is that it is usually better to take the prestigious versions of classes.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Added the caveat about 1st level stances in the ToB section, since it was requested several times. I suppose it's a common enough mistake that it bears repeating in a guide designed for those who may be unfamiliar with the details.

Added notation about Wolf Totem Barbarian and Improved Trip.

Once I get done with... RL stuff... I will be updating the second post, finally.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Multiclassing feats are up.

[Amphetryon]

The Reserve feat Sickening Grasp can be fun if you're doing the Monk 2/Arcane Caster X/Arcane Fist shtick. It's not necessarily a recommended option, and does 'best' with some Dragon magazine support, but WotC did put some apparent effort into supporting the archetype, and this Reserve feat helps it out some.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The Reserve feat Sickening Grasp can be fun if you're doing the Monk 2/Arcane Caster X/Arcane Fist shtick. It's not necessarily a recommended option, and does 'best' with some Dragon magazine support, but WotC did put some apparent effort into supporting the archetype, and this Reserve feat helps it out some.

Sickening is only a -2 to some stuff, and it won't get elevated to Nauseated. Also, it's a melee touch attack to use it, it doesn't augment your natural attacks.

So how does it do anything other than suck?

[Amphetryon]

Sickening is only a -2 to some stuff, and it won't get elevated to Nauseated. Also, it's a melee touch attack to use it, it doesn't augment your natural attacks.

So how does it do anything other than suck?

I'd appreciate a bit less bile, thanks, unless you'd prefer I simply not post in your thread.

The fact that it's used on a caster means that one who is dedicated to Necromancy can/should have methods of elevating it to Nauseated without a whole lot of effort, or, at the least, have other debuffs to stack on. It works in tandem with the fact that the ascetic schtick means touches in melee happen a great deal more than they would with many other caster types.

I've already stipulated that it's not the best thing ever. I'm simply pointing out that, for a specific archetype, it's not the worst thing ever, either, in my opinion and experience.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'd appreciate a bit less bile, thanks, unless you'd prefer I simply not post in your thread.

The fact that it's used on a caster means that one who is dedicated to Necromancy can/should have methods of elevating it to Nauseated without a whole lot of effort, or, at the least, have other debuffs to stack on. It works in tandem with the fact that the ascetic schtick means touches in melee happen a great deal more than they would with many other caster types.

I've already stipulated that it's not the best thing ever. I'm simply pointing out that, for a specific archetype, it's not the worst thing ever, either, in my opinion and experience.

Sorry about that, I should have responded with less vitriol.

I know of no way to elevate Sicked to Nauseated. Sickening effects do not stack, unlike Fear effects, so I don't see how it can be of any use to a build at all. Do you know of a way to elevate Sickened to Nauseated? That would be worth a trick or three.

[Thurbane]

Just a minor correction on reserve feats - they are called out as (Su) abilities on CM p.37, so they don't work in an AMF.

It also means if you could be bothered wasting feat slots, you could use the feats from ToM that are like metamagic for Su abilities.

[The Insaniac]

An Incarnate 2/Sha'ir 8/Soulcaster 10 is a decent build with midnight metamagic and some solid metamagic feats. It goes something like this:

Wake up, prepare first batch of combat spells. Invest all essentia into metamagic feats.

First combat: quicken spell, other spell with metamagic, repeat until end of combat. Investing essentia is a free action so you can put all of the essentia that was in your spells into your soulmelds as soon as you've cast the spells. Prepare next batch of spells. Invest all essentia into metamagic again. Rinse and repeat.

Totemist works for this too, but incarnate melds are better for a full caster.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

An Incarnate 2/Sha'ir 8/Soulcaster 10 is a decent build with midnight metamagic and some solid metamagic feats. It goes something like this:

Wake up, prepare first batch of combat spells. Invest all essentia into metamagic feats.

First combat: quicken spell, other spell with metamagic, repeat until end of combat. Investing essentia is a free action so you can put all of the essentia that was in your spells into your soulmelds as soon as you've cast the spells. Prepare next batch of spells. Invest all essentia into metamagic again. Rinse and repeat.

Totemist works for this too, but incarnate melds are better for a full caster.

Midnight Metamagic, pg. 39:

Benefit: Once per day, you can invest essentia into this feat and choose one or more spells that you know (and have prepared, if you prepare spells) to apply the effect of a metamagic feat that you know.

Emphasis mine. Soul manifester works a bit better.

[gorfnab]

For Cleric:
Handbook: Dipping Cleric 1

Other dipping guide:
Dipping Mini-Handbook

[The Insaniac]

Ah, good catch, I missed the once per day bit. Still, midnight metamagic is powerful, possibly more than midnight augmentation but I'd need to compare pp to spell level translation for metamagic/metapsionics. After all, you're getting metamagic without spending anything really.

But yeah, Soulcaster/Soulmanifester/Sapphire Hierarch are all nasty pieces of work with Incarnate/Totemist. Spellward Shirt and Fellmist Robe ftw. Incarnum is a good dip for almost anyone. Just remember that there are two meldshaping classes no matter what anyone else, even the book, tells you.

[Mattsayshola]

What exactly is WhirlPounceBarian? Can someone enlighten me please? Thanks!

[NineThePuma]

What exactly is WhirlPounceBarian? Can someone enlighten me please? Thanks!

Whirling Frenzy is a Rage variant in Unearthed Arcana.

Spirit Lion Totem is from Complete Champion and trades the Barbarian's Fast Movement for Pounce.

[Snowbluff]

What exactly is WhirlPounceBarian? Can someone enlighten me please? Thanks!

A barbarian with the Whirling Frenzy (For an extra attack)and Lion Spirit Totem (In Complete Champion, for pounce) ACFs.

EDIT: Swordsaged

[Urpriest]

• P You can take Leadership to improve your Special Mount (the DMG specifically suggests it and has rules for it)

That's a huge trap, though. Remember, Special Mount gives bonus HD, and Cohorts have ECL capped at two less than their Leader. A Paladin 6 is adding two bonus HD and +2 LA to the prospective Cohort, so it would have to be ECL 0 before becoming a Special Mount. Paladin 20 adds 8 bonus HD, so 10 of the 18 ECL its Cohort can have are taken up with Special Mount stuff.

Anyway, Shneeky, what's up with your opposition to Devoted Tracker? You are aware of Supermount builds, right?

[DeAnno]

"Simple" Swiftblade based gishes are sort of viable. Primary Arcane Caster 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5 perhaps. You get +17 BAB, 17th level casting, and what basically amounts to an extra standard action every combat round (minus a sunk swift action in round 1 to get haste off).

You need to get the martial weapon proficiency somehow, which means either paying an extra entry feat, having a race like Elf or Kobold, or going Stalwart Sorc. It is similar in feel to the Sorcadin (rather less diptastic though), trading a level of casting for an extra action/round and save bonuses for miss chances.

EDIT: Forgot that this was less about gishes and my build didn't actually multiclass

This is a pretty cool thread though, summarizes a lot of things which are good to know.

[Gwendol]

Very good guide, and not necessarily for newbies alone! I'm not getting the love for the bardblade though when the bardsader gets more out of CHA? The INT focus of the warblade makes marrying it with a CHA based casting class less than optimal. I would recommend INT based casting for the warblade, such as a duskblade.

[A_S]

All you really get out of Cha as a Crusader is Will saves. It's basically just personal preference, which refresh mechanic do you like better, Iron Heart vs. Devoted Spirit, etc. The blurb in the OP mentions that Crusader works just as well.

*edit* Oh yeah, smite. Smite is terrible.