Goblins VIII: This Thread Contains An Unexpected Variable

[Barbarian MD]

We left the meta plot a long time ago. When was the last mention of players? A year ago? Two?

Back to the discussion from a few panels ago: the comic immediately following this one was the worst of all. I had entirely forgotten about it before reading about all of Thunt's kills made it spring to mind. He's been doing this since day one.

[John Cribati]

We left the meta plot a long time ago. When was the last mention of players? A year ago? Two?

Almost a year, yes. But in-universe, not even a few days.

[TheSummoner]

Back to the discussion from a few panels ago: the comic immediately following this one was the worst of all. I had entirely forgotten about it before reading about all of Thunt's kills made it spring to mind. He's been doing this since day one.

I dunno... That one had a good deal of impact, especially considering how minor the characters involved were, but the death itself was fairly quick and clean.

[Fiery Diamond]

Called it on the love with the other Kin/Minmax pairings being more lust.

Anyhow, PCs/NPCs/DMs are a little strange in the comic.

1) There may be more than one DM, and any DMs seem to be deities (though not the only deities) of the setting.

2) There may be more than one independent group of PCs: NPCs have referred to adventurers behaving in a manner that would only make sense for PCs (such as discussing roleplaying experience).

3) The NPCs seem to exist independent of the DM, who may be more-or-less channeling them.

4) The various edition changes seem to have actually altered how the setting works over time, since NPCs actually discuss the editions.


Am I the only one who thinks that Kore might be a PC with a different DM?

[Brother Oni]

Going back to the PC discussion, would Herbert give MinMax's player a XP bonus for good roleplaying? After all, he's fallen in love with a NPC monster, which is reciprocated.

Edit:

Am I the only one who thinks that Kore might be a PC with a different DM?

If we're going with the DM = deity assumption, then that makes an awful lot of sense of how Kore can act how he can and still be a paladin.

[Traab]

We left the meta plot a long time ago. When was the last mention of players? A year ago? Two?

Back to the discussion from a few panels ago: the comic immediately following this one was the worst of all. I had entirely forgotten about it before reading about all of Thunt's kills made it spring to mind. He's been doing this since day one.

But even that was another case of tell not show. Yeah its a horrible, horrible thing to have happen, but we dont SEE it, so the impact is lessened. Now, if we actually saw the child take a crossbow bolt to the head and get the -10 marker above him, that would have definitely won the worst death ever vote from me.

[Yuki Akuma]

We left the meta plot a long time ago. When was the last mention of players? A year ago? Two?

People keep saying this. And yet we always end up going back to "yes, these people have players in another dimension controlling them".

Goblins is a very slow story with multiple plot threads going on at once, and only one of those plot threads has the players in them. Of course we won't hear about them very often.

[TheSummoner]

But even that was another case of tell not show. Yeah its a horrible, horrible thing to have happen, but we dont SEE it, so the impact is lessened. Now, if we actually saw the child take a crossbow bolt to the head and get the -10 marker above him, that would have definitely won the worst death ever vote from me.

Just because it was a child? We're talking about one crossbow bolt and it's done. It happened to a child, yeah, but it was still quicker and cleaner than... Being horribly burnt to the point where your fleshy parts are melting off and then stabbed repeatedly after finally losing consciousness... Slowly melting away into blue-gray goop, starting at the limbs, having pieces of your body fall off as it progresses... Slow and painful torture including deep cuts and removal of limbs before your body gives out from the pain... Literally being torn to pieces from the inside out.

We could've seen every little detail of it with a focus on the crossbow bolt itself as it plunged into him and it still would've been no higher than 5th on the list. Almost certainly lower than that... While not as bad as the others I mentioned, Young and Beautiful's death wasn't exactly pleasant either and there are probably more that I'm just not remembering right now.

[FatJose]

SA would diss Picasso for being unable to draw a normal-looking human face.

What is SA?

Also, not caring too much for this...Beating with a plot stick.

THIS! IS! CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT! **BAM**

[LoneStarNorth]

3) The NPCs seem to exist independent of the DM, who may be more-or-less channeling them.

Thunt responded to something like this that was said on his live feed once, saying that a DM can't possibly not know about something happening in his game world. That doesn't necessarily rule out multiple DMs (or just multiple concurrent games in the same setting), but what I think is actually happening is that all this adventure and drama playing out without any involvement with Minmax, Forgath, or other confirmed PCs, is just the long and drawn out version of something the DM scribbled down in his notes. Something like "when the party uses the jade teapot to finally find those goblins again, they learn that they've become adventurers themselves and are now higher level than the party". That's all the PLAYERS would ever know about it. It's not like the DM would sit them all down and recite this entire story for them. It's all happening in the notes, we just get to see it in full because that's the nature of the story.

[Gez]

What is SA?

Something Awful. They've got plenty of forums. One of them, called "Batman's Shameful Secret", is where they discuss comics of all kinds, including webcomics. The general attitude over there is to like comics which show a clear and constant art progression. They love Gunnerkrigg Court, for example. They also like comics with an off-beat humor: Kate Beaton, KC Green for example. They equally enjoy solid writing and plotting, so Order of the Stick is popular too. And like everybody on the net, they worship at the altar of Hussie.

On the other hand, they don't like Questionable Content (boring, writing has been stagnating and is less and less funny), Goblins (lumpy-looking art, poor writing and plotting) and Girl Genius (over-exaggerated faces, plot slow as molass). And they love to hate Dominic Deegan and Control-Alt-Del.

Note that both Gunnerkrigg Court and The Adventures of Dr. McNinja were created by SA forum members. (Though Hastings is no longer active over there. Dr. McNinja in fact used to be his online handle, and the character and his stories grew from there initially.)

SA is also famous for its word filters. If you are not a member logged in, many vulgarities or other words one shouldn't use in polite company are replaced not by a bunch of asterisks but by a silly periphrasis. For example, damn turns into "drat", the f-bomb gives "gently caress", f-ing gives "loving", and f-ed gives "hosed". The s-word becomes "poo poo". Sometimes, words that are overused on the net are also censored in this way: lame becomes "lovely" for example. It can be a bit more complicated too: The -ing verb form of a noun that's also the name of a Penn & Teller show becomes "making GBS threads" and racist or sexist slurs give results like "friend of the family" or "enjoyable human being". So if you read an SA thread and they seem to talk bizarrely, that's why.

[petersohn]

Something Awful. They've got plenty of forums. One of them, called "Batman's Shameful Secret", is where they discuss comics of all kinds, including webcomics. The general attitude over there is to like comics which show a clear and constant art progression. They love Gunnerkrigg Court, for example. They also like comics with an off-beat humor: Kate Beaton, KC Green for example. They equally enjoy solid writing and plotting, so Order of the Stick is popular too. And like everybody on the net, they worship at the altar of Hussie.

On the other hand, they don't like Questionable Content (boring, writing has been stagnating and is less and less funny), Goblins (lumpy-looking art, poor writing and plotting) and Girl Genius (over-exaggerated faces, plot slow as molass). And they love to hate Dominic Deegan and Control-Alt-Del.

So they practically love or hate comics completely arbitarily?

[Lord Raziere]

SA is also famous for its word filters. If you are not a member logged in, many vulgarities or other words one shouldn't use in polite company are replaced not by a bunch of asterisks but by a silly periphrasis. For example, damn turns into "drat", the f-bomb gives "gently caress", f-ing gives "loving", and f-ed gives "hosed". The s-word becomes "poo poo". Sometimes, words that are overused on the net are also censored in this way: lame becomes "lovely" for example. It can be a bit more complicated too: The -ing verb form of a noun that's also the name of a Penn & Teller show becomes "making GBS threads" and racist or sexist slurs give results like "friend of the family" or "enjoyable human being". So if you read an SA thread and they seem to talk bizarrely, that's why.

Those drat loving poo poos! That is lovely and that place is hosed up! gently caress them!

[Seerow]

Are wordfilters really all that uncommon? I go to several sites, none really SA based, that use them.

[Traab]

Are wordfilters really all that uncommon? I go to several sites, none really SA based, that use them.

I think its more HOW they filter than the fact that they do. I mean, ive seen plenty of sites that will filter out grape to read as g****, and things along those lines. I dont think ive ever seen them randomly change words into different words though.

[Seerow]

I think its more HOW they filter than the fact that they do. I mean, ive seen plenty of sites that will filter out grape to read as g****, and things along those lines. I dont think ive ever seen them randomly change words into different words though.

Maybe I just go to weird sites then. Changing words into other words is something fairly common. On one of the communities, the filters change more or less monthly depending on how the mods feel and what the community is doing, though there are a few constants. N***** == roger and f** = fine gentleman are a couple of constants (not sure if these are shared with GOONS/SA or not), and there's a couple that have been around long enough I don't even know what the originals were anymore. There's something that wordfilters to lulz that I can never remember what it is until I run into it, one person I assume whose username has been changed to "He who must not be named", things like that.

[Occasional Sage]

Clearly, what has defeated PsiMax is the Power of Love!

That was my first thought. I really hope it is not that simple, or corny.

Alas. This is one of those times I hate being right.

[Pie Guy]

Yeah, that bit seemed awkward.

[petersohn]

To be honest, I find this entire Maze Of Many arc very forced. While Psimax seemed to make an interesting character at his first appearance, he makes things even worse since he appeared again.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Well, now we know why this is the time that Our Reality succeeds, though. PsiMax just told them where they always die, so they're gonna know to be extra-careful then.

[Traab]

To be honest, I find this entire Maze Of Many arc very forced. While Psimax seemed to make an interesting character at his first appearance, he makes things even worse since he appeared again.

Meh, I take the arc as the method thunt is using to get the party to work together in a way that makes sense. I mean, they cant go from, "Shes a monster, lets kill her for exp!" to, "We are all friends now! la de dah!" overnight.

[blackjack217]

Meh, I take the arc as the method thunt is using to get the party to work together in a way that makes sense. I mean, they cant go from, "Shes a monster, lets kill her for exp!" to, "We are all friends now! la de dah!" overnight.

I always figured that they would get out right in front of the main goblin party. And then a certain dwarf will sacrifice himself to buy the other party members time to escape.

[petersohn]

Meh, I take the arc as the method thunt is using to get the party to work together in a way that makes sense. I mean, they cant go from, "Shes a monster, lets kill her for exp!" to, "We are all friends now! la de dah!" overnight.

So you say it's an excuse plot for character development? Well, character development happened to the GAP in BMC or during their encounter with Kore, FMK between BMC and the MOM, heck even the Dies party in their dungeon, all the while without such exaggerated plots.

I think Thunt simply found the idea of this dungeon interesting or funny. I don't know about everyone else, but I don't. Maybe sometimes funny.

[Gez]

I think Thunt simply found the idea of this dungeon interesting or funny. I don't know about everyone else, but I don't. Maybe sometimes funny.

I'd say it's a shark jump, but it's not the first. Writing is where Thunt should focus his efforts for improvement.

[ORione]

Random thought: Psimax is still a version of Minmax. What do you think he traded his ability to feel compassion for?

[The Glyphstone]

Random thought: Psimax is still a version of Minmax. What do you think he traded his ability to feel compassion for?

A bonus to his manifesting level, most likely.

[Marnath]

I'd say it's a shark jump, but it's not the first. Writing is where Thunt should focus his efforts for improvement.

*Obligatory comment on how Thunt wrote the entire story years ago, and it's not likely to change much if at all.*

[Tono]

Doesn't mean he can't change the small details and wording of stuff as he goes.

[Gez]

*Obligatory comment on how Thunt wrote the entire story years ago, and it's not likely to change much if at all.*

If I had written an entire story years ago, and was now in the process of publishing it serially, there would be a ton of changes on the go. The order in which some stuff is presented might change, some characters might be tweaked, some scenes omitted because they were bad idea actually, others added because I noticed a plot hole, and so on.

As far as I know, all writers work this way, be they great or small. Why do you think retcon exist? It's because authors noticed they should change something, but it's perceived as a retcon because the older material has already been published (which is not the case for the Goblins synopsis).

To give an example from another series discussed in this forum, the original plans for the Foglio's Girl Genius had the Wulfenbach (then called Ujabeck) as clear-cut villains in the story. Klaus ended up being a heroic antagonist, and Gilgamesh a protagonist. Pretty major deviation from the story as it had been written years ago!

Examples of stuff that could have been written a lot better without changing the overall plot as written years ago in Goblins include the massive info-dumps used notably for the Axe of Prissan scene between Big Ears and Saral Caine, or the Klik dimension of weirdness.

[FatJose]

The thing that bothers me about this arc is that the whole thing seems a bit too high powered and high concept. They went from killing goblins to starting a fight with a stronger PC and winning followed by entering a magic dungeon outside space and time.

Granted, steadily escalating power has never been Goblins' thing. They're all Level 2-4 and have already defeated some evil ranger who was implied to be somewhat powerful. Ears has an "epic" armor/weapon combo, Complains has a Demon/Devil template and Dies (Who is also in some crazy dungeon) has a bionic armor that's alive. The comic's been around for 6 years but the actual story has covered maybe a few weeks tops. It just seems a bit much.