The Razor (base class, 3.5, Peach) Bleed for me!

[Tavor]

I think this class is not relevant enough in combat.

Combats do not last long enough to make bleeding worth the extra bookkeeping.
Enemies immune to critical hits and those with Regeneration negate anything this class does. So will any creature with a DR you can't beat.

Sneak Attackers suffer from the same problem, but will deal more damage and have methods of circumventing immunties.

Trading damage for extra chance to hit is mindboggling, the rate at which it happens is downright insulting.

Those issues need to be adressed.
Then again, in a group with Core Monk and Ranger it probably would look useful.

[Just to Browse]

I think this class is not relevant enough in combat.

Combats do not last long enough to make bleeding worth the extra bookkeeping.
Enemies immune to critical hits and those with Regeneration negate anything this class does. So will any creature with a DR you can't beat.

My friend, I don't think DR applies against these abilities. Perhaps that wasn't outwardly stated, but "bleed" seems to be very much along the lines of "you are all ready wounded, and now it hurts more". Also, kiting for days.

Trading damage for extra chance to hit is mindboggling, the rate at which it happens is downright insulting.

I agree with this. It should be 1/1.

Also, no, this is way better than core monk and core ranger.

[bobthe6th]

note: at work on clarification/editing. also, tossed the 1-1 in with it already in the edit.

but yes, DR is a pain. but it should be a pain. THF get stuck on super AC foes, this can mow them down in a few rounds if he rolls well.

[bobthe6th]

edit completed. should be more readable now. now ElfStone, your side of the bargain...

[Hiro Protagonest]

but yes, DR is a pain. but it should be a pain. THF get stuck on super AC foes, this can mow them down in a few rounds if he rolls well.

Not really. Charging to switch the Power Attack penalty to your AC, Emerald Razor maneuver, not Power Attacking, some other ToB maneuver...

[bobthe6th]

but its damage still is kinda meh, ready for insta gib of the foes freinds in range, once every other rounds and uses up manuvers.

see the new power boost. well kinda. also pre made general rebutal.

at level 19 he can full out pounce, with a base speed +30 so a human now has a 120ft charge. if that doesn't reach a foe, it isn't in melee and you wip out a bow and start pew pewing at it, for 4 BP a hit. even before that he has some stupid long steps, starting at 10ft at 4th to 30ft at 20th. free aoo free movement. though I think I should make it start sooner... would a 30 step at 12 and a twenty at 8 be better? then maybe a 40ft step at 16 and a 60 ft step at 20? anyway...

at level 20 he adds 4 bleed points per hit multiplied on a crit, and can make 12 attacks as a full round.(he has auto haste and speed) 6 of which are at MAX BAB, or can be shifted around to make it 15/15/15/15/15/15/15/15/10/10/10/10 with str bonus+weapon bonus+ect... with the ability to trade a little damage for a boost to hit(as at this point, damage is very secondary. all you need is enough to beat DR, or a trick to beat DR like a metaline weapon and some knowledge). most of the time he should hit, and with a good crit rate (15-20 keen scimitar) 3 attacks should crit for 6 str damage+6 con damage+another 12 bleed points. 60 bleed points of bleed on a full attack+6 points of con damage and 6 points strength damage. then aoos which can double tap, aoos that he provokes ect... he should add about 80 damage a round in blood points to a foe if he rolls well. then he should do it again and agian and again... 60+round not high enough for you?

at a more midiling level, lets say 10. this is mid op, with rolled stats so he gets an 18 strength, and is carrying a +1 keen scimitar(he spent his feats building up for spring attack, for ninja fun later.) he has a full attack of +8+1+4=+13/+13/+7+1+4=+12/+12 assume the foe has 20 ac(not a heavily arrmored BBEG) he hits on a 8+ on his first two and a 9+ on his secound two. he hits with a little over half his swings. he crits about once a round.
he swings for 1d6+5 damage and 2 bleed points. so his average damage in a round is 3d6+15+2 points of strength damage+6 bleed points. weak but ok ish... unless he has a smart support caster! or gets some potions of haste as loot. then he getts another attack, and can stack on the bleed with a 50-50 chance of another crit, but regardless another hit. couple rounds and the dragon should fall...

Barbarian is the best melee at level one. before anyone else's styles are coming online, the Barbarian has his buff(rage) and is swinging the free weapon style THF for silly damage. this class is about as crappy as any other a level one...

[Elfstone]

Check Improved Wounding and Rapid Strike.

Im working on my side.

[Tavor]

Let's talk at level 10 assuming a 24 Strength against your average enemy.
The Razor hastes himself and will attack at +17/+17/+17/+12 doing 1d8+8 (and for the sake of it +1d6 elemental damage) each. (average of 64)

64 dmg on average at level 10 is kinda meh, not to speak of stacking 4 points of bleeding the next round. Do we really care about those 4 points of damage at this point?
However, level appropriate enemies will never die to this full attack (due to hp inflation). You used your extended 5ft. step to move in, so you'll now eat a full attack (or worse: a grapple) in return. A d8HD character isn't someone who wants to be in that position.

If the Razor went the Spring Attack route this will get even worse, as you only get 2 attacks but get charged in return.

(If you use a more liberal read of Rapid Strike he'd get 6 attacks and deal ~96 dmg, which would put it into acceptable amount for that level, yet still not enough to one-shot most monsters at that CR - and even less reason to care about the bleeding damage)

Now you have a mean DM and you fight a Vrock(CR9)
You will probably not beat the DR 10/Good and the elemental damage will run into resistance.
Now you suddenly only deal an average total of 6 damage over 4 attacks. Ouch.
On the upside you suddenly care about the 4 points of bleeding damage next round. (well, not really)
This also assumes the Vrock won't use ablities like Fly/Telekinesis or his Stunning Gaze which the Razor will have trouble saving against with his low Fort save.

While I expect most melee to fail against Castermonsters this performance is incredibly bad.
Sure you can go the Power Attack route with the Razor, but you lack the feats of a THF build and it scales horribly with a 1h weapon.

[bobthe6th]

(actually, you should add another four attacks at full BAB... haste+speed both flurried)

DR sucks for every one involved, so I suggest hasted rapid strike holy water. six flask a round, hitting near automatically except on a one, bleeding 2 each. average damage 4, so 24 damage and 12 bleeding. 40ft step away with quick drawn sword for parry. rinse and repeat. give it two-three rounds.

Deamons are mean, holy water is meaner.

[Tavor]

*scratches head*
I dont see any flurry except for Accurate Flurry, which does not add attacks.

Anyway, i reread the abilities: by my count you get 6 attacks at level 10. 2 for bab+1 for haste. x2 for Rapid Strike. And I totally forgot Greater Bleeding cuts, so he causes 18 bleed. Now 18 dmg/round is something I care about and it will probably win you the fight against a grappler (assuming you get to do at least 1 full attack). A dedicated charger will die from bleeding after the Razor is dead unless he can get healed.
You might want to fix the name in the ability listing, it sais Improved Bleeding Cuts twice (at 5th and 10th).
Ok, he does level appropriate damage if it's abilities aren't negated (which is still a pretty long list).
That's what I get for just eyeballing a class, sorry.


I still feel uneasy. The class lacks high level options, a common problem with nearly every classic melee. Additionally Low Fort- and Will-saves are really a weak point. Especially with Wis as a dumpstat.

edit: As for Holy Water, that kind of defeats the purpose of the class. And you could argue whether or not Rapid Strike even applies.

[bobthe6th]

rapid attack... sigh, it is kinda flury ish... serves me right not reading the class for a month...

thank you, that was the idea. add the 2 strength damage on crits for kicks... and it can be fun.

your TWFing with one hand, thrown weapons +quick draw is fair game. but hand cross bow, rapid reload, good alined bolts. two feats, have fun.

speed weapon property. +3 bonus that is worth it for another 2 attacks.

high level, he can mess with spring attack and speed stepping, countering foes to death, and high crit fun...

[Hiro Protagonest]

speed weapon property. +3 bonus that is worth it for another 2 attacks.

Doesn't stack with Haste. Since Ludicrous Speed is the same as Haste, it doesn't stack.

[bobthe6th]

ok... odd I missed that... changing that fact right now...

edit: now the haste stacks with ludicrous speed.

[Tavor]

your TWFing with one hand, thrown weapons +quick draw is fair game. but hand cross bow, rapid reload, good alined bolts. two feats, have fun.

But then your other hand isn't free. It is holding things, even though you throw or drop them. This negates Rapid Strike. If you want to allow for this, you need to specify so.

[bobthe6th]

what is it holding? but you are correct. also, I think I should give it quick draw at first level, as it is a class about SPEED...

[Tavor]

Might even want to think about giving the class access to Air Walk at higher levels.

Speed step(EX): At eighteenth level a Razor under the effects of Ludicrous speed and moving, he is considered invisible(nothing senses him in any manner and gets attacks of opportunity for the movement or attacks. All creatures unaware of him are treated as flatfooted to his attacks, and if he ends the movement out of a creatures line of sight it isn't aware of the razor). If the Razor attacks during his move(due to feats like spring attack ect.) foes do not notice the wounds until after the Razor finishes his move.

may I suggest editing as follows:

Speed step(EX): At eighteenth level a Razor under the effects of Ludicrous speed and moving is considered as if under the effect of Greater Invisibility until the beginning of his next turn. If the Razor attacks during his move foes are unaware of the wounds until the beginning of their next turn.

If you want to make him immune to abilities like Blind Sense, Blind Sight, Tremorsense, True Seeing and other such abilities you should clarify it or use another word instead of Invisibility. That addition would certainly not break the ability. Even Sorcerers get 9th level spells at this level.

[Elfstone]

But nobody can make them selves that invisibly without a lot of work. It should be some, not all. Not even casters can do that. If thats that this class was about I would say go for it, but from what I can tell, this is about making people bleed.

Note:This is not my full critique, just a part that needed to be said right now.

[bobthe6th]

ah hem...
(nothing senses him in any manner and gets attacks of opportunity for the movement or attacks. All creatures unaware of him are treated as flatfooted to his attacks, and if he ends the movement out of a creatures line of sight it isn't aware of the razor)

I guess I should just state that any kind of sense misses him while running...

[Tavor]

Well, it is level 18. Abilities compete with things like Time Stop and No Save instant kills. They should be remarkable.

[bobthe6th]

ok clarified. now it is "invisible to all senses", using the actual meaning of the word, not the spell as a bassis.

edit: oop, just saw elfstones response.

it is just during the movement. at the end he is viable and before. I just wanted the straw hat samurai feel of the Razor suddenly being 20ft passed his foe, then his foe starting to turn round, then fall to a dozen pieces spurting blood from his dozen or so wounds.

[Elfstone]

Thats fine if its only during movement, I understand where you are coming from.

[Demidos]

Creatures without vital fluids(blood, icor, alchemical fluid ect.) are immune to bleeping damage.

[bobthe6th]

well, someone should censor them. fixed

[bobthe6th]

*prods elfstone*

[NeoSeraphi]

You spelled "alignment" wrong.

The WotC-official word for "stacking" is "cumulative". I think it would help make your class sound a bit more official if you swapped to that word, but whether that's a good thing or not is up to you.

Riposte says "Any action that does not directly affect the enemy". I believe you meant to say "Except any action that does not directly affect the enemy" or "Any action that directly affects the enemy."

The cuts ability is interesting, however, I would restrict it to slashing weapons. (How are you going to cut someone open with a club or a lance?)

[bobthe6th]

fixed alignment.

eh, I like stacking. might fix it if I feel board.

good catch, fixed with a double negative.

impact cuts bleed like crazy, an if you aren't bleeding from a lance wound...
the real trick is instead twisting the spear for larger wounds, and abrading with the club.

Thanks!

[Elfstone]

*prods elfstone*

Alright alright. I was gone all day.

So Rapid Strike only ever grants one extra attack? Unless you use Grillions blessing to gain two empty hands? That can get fun...

I like everything up to weak joints. And I like the mechanic of weak joints. It just seems weird flavor wise.

Accurate flurry... Meh. Okay. I'll buy it.

Wounded links is good, very nice for this class.

Everything else is nice as well. Its come a ways and I think you've done a decent job.

Except for one thing. No class should only offer things in combat. He should have out of combat options too!!

Let him run up walls or something. Cut through objects, fashion weapons out of nothing, or something. Anything. He just needs to bring something else to the table besides cutting people(which he does really well). If you can do that, you might bring it up a tier. From 5-4 to 3-4 range.

[bobthe6th]

Alright alright. I was gone all day.

So Rapid Strike only ever grants one extra attack? Unless you use Grillions blessing to gain two empty hands? That can get fun...

I like everything up to weak joints. And I like the mechanic of weak joints. It just seems weird flavor wise.

Accurate flurry... Meh. Okay. I'll buy it.

Wounded links is good, very nice for this class.

Everything else is nice as well. Its come a ways and I think you've done a decent job.

Except for one thing. No class should only offer things in combat. He should have out of combat options too!!

Let him run up walls or something. Cut through objects, fashion weapons out of nothing, or something. Anything. He just needs to bring something else to the table besides cutting people(which he does really well). If you can do that, you might bring it up a tier. From 5-4 to 3-4 range.

it was mostly for the thri-keens. a enihander thrikeen is something I want to see.

I'm not sure how to flavor it... I'll think about it.

I wanted to make the iteratives more accurate. Not sure...

I through it in at the suggestion that he needed something to do against bloodless foes.

haste, lots of haste... But that bares thought. I gave it 4+int skill points... hmm...

any suggestions? the three you gave are 1)a feat 2)adimantine and 3) mind blade... perhaps a sword of pure SPEED!

[Wandiya]

You give them Quick Draw at level 1 then give them the ability to choose a feat. One of which happens to be Quick Draw. You mention ranged attacks in Rapid Strike, why not offer Quick Reload somewhere?

Just my 2cp.

[bobthe6th]

hmm... the first is cause I just tossed in the feat. you also need two hands for any ranged weapon other than thrown... which is covered by quick draw.

so up shot: will replace quick draw with something in the special feats.

and an Idea occurred to me. would giving a form of one handed rend work for a special ability? some thing like "hit a foe twice in one round, add x pb were x is the amount of bp you give on a normal strike"?