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    Silva Stormrage's Avatar

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    Default Is Redcloak being mind controlled? (SoD Spoilers)

    Hello, I just finished reading SoD and one scene in particular stood out to me. Is it just me or does the scene where he first learns of the plan make anyone else think the cloak does essentially enforces the wearer to follow the plan? Redcloak is muttering, "The plan must continue, the plan must continue" while still having his eyes highlighted a darkish color indicating magic.

    It would explain why he has such a massive hesitation towards abandoning the plan and why he would even kill Right Eye for it.

    Just wondering what people think.
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    Default Re: Is Redcloak being mind controlled? (SoD Spoilers)

    I always assumed he has his own plan up his sleeve and is just waiting for the right time to strike. He maybe needs Xykon for that plan and up until that point he has to follow Xykon.

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    Default Re: Is Redcloak being mind controlled? (SoD Spoilers)

    I rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreally hope not. Him being mind-controlled would give him a very good excuse for his actions and an important part of his story is that he hasn't got such an excuse. That he is a hypocrite.

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    Default Re: Is Redcloak being mind controlled? (SoD Spoilers)

    I'd say not, since after taking Monster in the Dark from the circus, he realized what he was missing out on, family-wise, and wanted to stay in the village and see the girl Right-Eye's wife set him up with. I think that scene made it clear that he was operating under his own free will, and the sunk-cost fallacy (along with Xykon's threaths) is what keeps him going.
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    Default Re: Is Redcloak being mind controlled? (SoD Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post
    Hello, I just finished reading SoD and one scene in particular stood out to me. Is it just me or does the scene where he first learns of the plan make anyone else think the cloak does essentially enforces the wearer to follow the plan? Redcloak is muttering, "The plan must continue, the plan must continue" while still having his eyes highlighted a darkish color indicating magic.

    It would explain why he has such a massive hesitation towards abandoning the plan and why he would even kill Right Eye for it.

    Just wondering what people think.
    My interpretation of that scene was that Redcloak had just gotten a ton of information and history magically/divinely downloaded into his brain, and was suffering the aftereffects of that, but that his actions once he recovered were his own choice. Influenced, no doubt, by the information and spin he got from the Crimson Mantle that the plan was the only way the goblinoids could ever have true equality, but that it didn't really force him to carry out the plan.

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    Default Re: Is Redcloak being mind controlled? (SoD Spoilers)

    If Redcloak was being mind-controlled by the Cloak, TDO wouldn't bother sending him messages like "Don't screw this up."

    More to the point, if Redcloak has been mind-controlled all this time, that makes all his character development fly straight out the window. It's not a useful addition to the narrative--in fact, it's detrimental.

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    Default Re: Is Redcloak being mind controlled? (SoD Spoilers)

    I don't mean like Dominated Mind control. I mean more like a suggestion spell. Something that needs to be justified in his own mind. Somewhat like the suggestion spells in Erfworld.

    Even then I don't think it would justify his actions. It was just the first thing that came to me as I read that page. "Wait I don't remember hearing about Redcloak being mind controlled when I put on the Crimson Mantle"
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    Default Re: Is Redcloak being mind controlled? (SoD Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post
    Even then I don't think it would justify his actions. It was just the first thing that came to me as I read that page. "Wait I don't remember hearing about Redcloak being mind controlled when I put on the Crimson Mantle"
    If you're wearing the Crimson Mantle, then surely the fact that you're able to consider this possibility is proof that the Crimson Mantle doesn't mind-control its wearers.
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    Default Re: Is Redcloak being mind controlled? (SoD Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post
    Hello, I just finished reading SoD and one scene in particular stood out to me. Is it just me or does the scene where he first learns of the plan make anyone else think the cloak does essentially enforces the wearer to follow the plan? Redcloak is muttering, "The plan must continue, the plan must continue" while still having his eyes highlighted a darkish color indicating magic.

    It would explain why he has such a massive hesitation towards abandoning the plan and why he would even kill Right Eye for it.

    Just wondering what people think.
    Highly unlikely. Remember that there was a point where he had made up his mind to abandon The Plan and live in Right-Eye's village, which was changed only because Xykon showed back up and forced him back into his service again. I doubt that would be possible if he were under the magical mind-altering influence of a god.

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    Default Re: Is Redcloak being mind controlled? (SoD Spoilers)

    If the Crimson Mantle implants an irresistible need to fulfill the plan, you'd think that the bearers before Redcloak would have got a lot farther with it. I mean, Redcloak's predecessor seemed to be messing around in his village rather than seeking out the gates. Doubt that the bearer would be able to piss about with an unsurpressable order directly from their God sitting in their psyche.
    Last edited by TheBST; 2012-01-11 at 08:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Is Redcloak being mind controlled? (SoD Spoilers)


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    Default Re: Is Redcloak being mind controlled? (SoD Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post
    Hello, I just finished reading SoD and one scene in particular stood out to me. Is it just me or does the scene where he first learns of the plan make anyone else think the cloak does essentially enforces the wearer to follow the plan? Redcloak is muttering, "The plan must continue, the plan must continue" while still having his eyes highlighted a darkish color indicating magic.

    It would explain why he has such a massive hesitation towards abandoning the plan and why he would even kill Right Eye for it.

    Just wondering what people think.
    I always interpreted that as a vast amount of information being magically implanted in his brain. And his muttering is just the shock of learning all this.

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    Default Re: Is Redcloak being mind controlled? (SoD Spoilers)

    It is very likely that the Crimson Cloak "dumps" a truck-load of experience into the mind of his wearer, instantly leveling him up several levels, inserting prepared spells, setting up long-term enchantments (such as prolongued youth), etc, etc. and thus the look in RC's face when he dons it is that of shell-shock.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Is Redcloak being mind controlled? (SoD Spoilers)

    Plus, we shouldn't forget that Redcloak was barely an adult at the time--having all that memory and experience dumped into you at such a young age is probably a real shock to the system. On the other hand, it's probably also why he's been so driven to complete the Plan--not only was he young and impressionable when he learned of it, but it was shortly after his master and most of his family were killed in front of his eyes! Let's face it, you see most of your friends and family killed, and then literally moments later learn of a great plan that looks like it will prevent stuff like that ever happening again, you'd be pretty determined to carry it out as well.

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    Default Re: Is Redcloak being mind controlled? (SoD Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by olthar View Post
    Is that the thing Yoshimo had in BG2?

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    Default Re: Is Redcloak being mind controlled? (SoD Spoilers)

    At that point, nearly everyone Redcloak has ever known has just been massacred. The importance of the plan to Redcloak is that it gives their deaths meaning; something he says to his brother as they're fleeing.

    Mind you, the Persuade roll the Dark One would have made when decribing the plan would come quite close to mind control! The story Redcloak spins to Xykon has holes you can drive trucks through, but Redcloak doesn't question it - he's convinced that everything is someone else's fault.
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    Default Re: Is Redcloak being mind controlled? (SoD Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by whitelaughter View Post
    The story Redcloak spins to Xykon has holes you can drive trucks through, but Redcloak doesn't question it - he's convinced that everything is someone else's fault.
    Well, he's already having to believe that the Crimson Mantle--and thus the Plan--were worth the deaths of nearly his entire village at that point, and the death toll has only spiralled since! First there was Right-Eye's village, then probably hundreds dead in Dorukan's Dungeon, and finally ten thousand goblinoids died in the assault on Azure City. At every step the sheer magnitude of his own folly that Redcloak would have to face if he abandoned the Plan gets greater...

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    Default Re: Is Redcloak being mind controlled? (SoD Spoilers)

    Okay ya, being shell shocked seems like a much more logical interpretation.
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