A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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    Default Blackwing: A Strange Bird is Explained

    Conclusion: Party members cannot remember blackwing because V has not shared that he became darth-V with the other party members. A broader theme of Oots is how one act of reality-denial or forgetfulness by one party member makes it difficult to acknowledge shared truths and a shared reality with all other party members. Haley's inability to acknowledge (outside of her own head), the love she felt for Elan left her isolated and unable to communicate with anyone at all. The comic's ultimate monster, The Snarl, reflects this theme. The Snarl is a villain born of the gods attempts to manifest different realities simultaneously, each ignoring the reality the other gods in the comic were trying to express. Blackwing is symbolic of the temptation to ignore elements of reality when they are not convenient, and the consequences of doing so, i.e. discord with other party members (see below for examples) the temptation of other party members to also discard elements of reality that they find inconvenient to deal with, and ultimately the inability to share as richl of an experience. One of the pleasures of gaming and meanings of life is that we do not create reality on our own but we participating in weaving a story with many others, sometimes our efforts in bringing about the story we are trying to tell succeed and other times we are part of a story we did not expect.

    I did a full re-read in which I noticed strip 179 ("Liar, Liar") has a parallel with strip 674 ("The Elf who Cried Raven"). Beyond the similarity of the titles, both strips contain a very similar event with the following structure: it is suggested to one character that they are part of an event but the character is unable to remember their own involvement, the character is puzzled by their absence of memory and states that they should be able to remember that thing happening, and even when the character is challenged or prodded to remember he cannot. We readers can use the archives and prove the event.

    In strip 179, Belkar says to Roy "I think I would remember something like that, but I don't" in reference to Roy's promise of Giants in their side quest. In Strip 674, Roy says to V "V, I think I would remember seeing a bird hanging around this whole time." Also in 674 and 775 (panel 5), Haley does not remember Blackwing, despite naming him in strip 174. It is telling that in 674, Roy sees Blackwing but does not believe Blackwing is part of reality, he believes Blackwing is an illusion and Elan goes along with the theory, calling Blackwing an imaginary friend and casting an illusion of a bird, going along with the joke.

    The Oracle's response to Blackwing links him with acts of forgetfulness: "try ginko bilboa".

    Explanation:

    Haley says: "Behold, the Power of Lying! You can pretty much alter reality if you try hard enough (panel 7).". Because the characters lie about Blackwing by only remembering him when he is convenient they alter reality.

    My hypothesis is that people's forgetting blackwing is a miniature "Snarl effect." The Snarl is a monster borne of disagreements between gods over the nature of reality (i.e. whether in reality trolls are sea creatures, blacksmiths, dolls collected by the elderly, etc.) Just as the comic's gods created the Snarl by trying to manifest their own version of events simultaneously, characters in the strip create discord by failing to perceive the truth and remember events as they actually happened, hence manifesting a different reality from the other characters. Strip 179 (, shows that once V ignored blackwing (no longer tense in panel 2 of the strip because he has decided for Blackwing to go poof), Belkar also choses his own version of events, making Roy's lie go poof by ignoring it ever happened just like V ignores the complications from his familiar. Lying in both strips altered reality.

    The characters cannot remember blackwing, because V is only showing the other characters a selective version of himself by not acknowledging Darth-V to the group. So the characters not remembering blackwing, is like when Haley's love for Elan and refusal to manifest the reality within herself into the world left her unable to communicate with anyone at all except herself.
    Last edited by eusticepious; 2012-01-05 at 02:22 PM. Reason: Panel 1 on 693 link added

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    Default Re: Blackwing: A Strange Bird is Explained

    I always just thought Blackwing being forgotten/ignored was because most people forget/ignore familiars, and it is a joke. A long, extended, and black humor kind of joke.
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    Default Re: Blackwing: A Strange Bird is Explained

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutant Sheep View Post
    I always just thought Blackwing being forgotten/ignored was because most people forget/ignore familiars, and it is a joke. A long, extended, and black humor kind of joke.
    Yeah, that'd be the logical conclusion. V's started to pay attention to Blackwing now, but that doesn't change that the rest of the party doesn't, hence their reactions whenever V brings him up.

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    Default Re: Blackwing: A Strange Bird is Explained

    Congratulations, you got this post in just in time to win biggest over analysis of a running gag by trying to give it a deeper plot based meaning of 2011!


    Seriously, it's a joke. Not a plot point.

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    Default Re: Blackwing: A Strange Bird is Explained

    Well, I always thought the bird was nothing more than the conscience of V, like good ol Jiminy Cricket (hence, black). While V was acting without regards to how his actions affect others, the bird refused to speak to him. Now that V is fully concious that his actions will have consequences, Blackwing is more active.

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    Default Re: Blackwing: A Strange Bird is Explained

    blackwing is definitely a part of a series of jokes in the comic. I did not mean to neglect blackwing's contribution to the comedy. Blackwing is funny and maybe i ought to have emphasized that more. Its just the joke Rich tells through Blackwing plays into the story Rich is telling, so it seems to me. There sure are alot of stripswith blackwing; it would make the comic less meaningful if he turned out to be irrelevant, and i would be sad cuz i think Rich is pretty brilliant.

    As for the Jimminy Cricket theory, there are conscience characters in the comic. I think that V is confiding and airing things out with blackwing (who he is safest to tell things) the way Haley tells Elan about her father in Oots 681.

    (hope to add more links later o this post, but not likely)

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    Default Re: Blackwing: A Strange Bird is Explained

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Yeah, that'd be the logical conclusion. V's started to pay attention to Blackwing now, but that doesn't change that the rest of the party doesn't
    Except the rest of the party were always the ones who would remember Blackwing even when V didn't--it was Haley who named him in the first place!

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    Default Re: Blackwing: A Strange Bird is Explained

    Quote Originally Posted by NerfTW View Post
    Congratulations, you got this post in just in time to win biggest over analysis of a running gag by trying to give it a deeper plot based meaning of 2011!


    Seriously, it's a joke. Not a plot point.
    I'd imagine that's what people said about the dragon way back being a teenager, and then a few hundred strips later the ABD shows up.

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    Default Re: Blackwing: A Strange Bird is Explained

    Quote Originally Posted by NerfTW View Post
    Congratulations, you got this post in just in time to win biggest over analysis of a running gag by trying to give it a deeper plot based meaning of 2011!


    Seriously, it's a joke. Not a plot point.
    Come on now, if people thought that way there's be no post-modern literary analysis at all!

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    Default Re: Blackwing: A Strange Bird is Explained

    Quote Originally Posted by Cranica View Post
    I'd imagine that's what people said about the dragon way back being a teenager, and then a few hundred strips later the ABD shows up.
    Yes, but it's also what people said about Fruit Pie the Sorcerer.

    ... and now there are going to be a bunch of Fruit Pie theories pop up, aren't there.

    I'm cool with that.

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    Default Re: Blackwing: A Strange Bird is Explained

    You DO know they acknoledge it's existence (at least roy does), just not that it is V's familiar, right?
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    Default Re: Blackwing: A Strange Bird is Explained

    "It's an illusion" =/= "it exists". Most illusions don't exist. That's sort of the point.

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    Default Re: Blackwing: A Strange Bird is Explained

    Right, but then they acknowledged the bird's existence here.

    Also, Z and Qarr are perfectly capable of remembering the bird.

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    Default Re: Blackwing: A Strange Bird is Explained

    Quote Originally Posted by eusticepious View Post
    I did a full re-read in which I noticed strip 179 ("Liar, Liar") has a parallel with strip 674 ("The Elf who Cried Raven"). Beyond the similarity of the titles,
    Similarity of the titles? what?

    Quote Originally Posted by eusticepious View Post
    Conclusion: Party members cannot remember blackwing because V has not shared that he became darth-V with the other party members.
    That makes no sense however you turn it around..

    Sorry, you're probbably vastly overthinking it
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    Default Re: Blackwing: A Strange Bird is Explained

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilphon View Post
    Right, but then they acknowledged the bird's existence here.

    Also, Z and Qarr are perfectly capable of remembering the bird.
    Well no, not really. They still think it's an illusion cast by V.

    I think the OP makes some very interesting points:

    - The Snarl has some reference to the general Problem of P&P Role-Playing games, in that everyone tries to tell their story, and people tend to get very invested in having the best/coolest/most influential charakter. However, if you go to far with this, you kill the fun of roleplaying.

    - Showing only a selective side of oneself is definetly a theme in the comic, Haley did it, V did it, Belkar now does it. But I think Vs familiar not being acknowledged has more to do with the rule of funny and the fact V still has a long way to go to fully compensate his ignorance in the past.

    That said, while Blackwing clearly ties into these Themes, I think the OP is vastly overstating it's importance. Ignoring the familiar is mainly a recurring joke in OOTS. It started as an insider joke on roleplaying and has now turned into a somewhat more general joke about wilfull denial. But I don't think wilfull denial of reality is really a topic in OOTS. Theres a pretty big difference between displaying oneself in a positive light and denying external reality.

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    Default Re: Blackwing: A Strange Bird is Explained

    Cronos:

    Thank you for a thoughtful and generous reply. I am very very happy that got something out of my post and its amateurish noodling on themes of the strip / Snarl. And maybe I am reading too much into what is intended as light-humor / rule of funny with Blackwing. I am not really sure Blackwing is a significant character. I think his appearance in front of the oracle and strip 674, make me want to reach for blackwing to have a real meaning.

    I added to the OP a quote from Haley, where she says "behold the power of lying, you can pretty much alter reality if you try hard enough." I think that altering reality because of lying is what we see happens in 179 (Blackwing is forgotten after the first panel and then Belkar "forgets" something that challenges his character, Roy's promise that there would be Giants, but feels like he should remember it). In 674, the characters "forgetting" that Blackwing exists is strange -- and I am so tempted to reach for an explanation. I know its reaching, but I think the point is that one character's lies altered reality like Haley said it could. Just my two cents.
    Last edited by eusticepious; 2012-01-05 at 02:24 PM.

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    Default Re: Blackwing: A Strange Bird is Explained

    Quote Originally Posted by Gandariel View Post
    Similarity of the titles? what?
    "The Elf Who Cried Raven" is a reference to the Aesop Fable, the Boy Who Cried Wolf, with the moral that liars are not rewarded: even if they tell the truth, no one believes them. The title of 179, "Liar, Liar" also references how known liars cannot be believed. Both strips begin with Blackwing and show the other characters not believing something they were a part of, actually happened, i.e. lying changed reality. In 179, Belkar does not remember Roy telling him there would be giants and in 674, Haley does not remember Blackwing even though she named him.

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    Default Re: Blackwing: A Strange Bird is Explained

    Despite the 2 strips being really similar, the most noticeable difference is that the strip with Belkar is actually funny. Belkar has the memory of a lemming, and was a lot dumber back then, so the dialogue fits perfectly and the line with : "I don't trust you enough to believe you lied." is just gold.

    Rich apparently went for the same joke 500 strips later but it's just not funny, any way you look at it. You could see everyone agreeing with me by reading the comments on that strip's thread. The whole set up for the joke just seems incredibly forced, especially in Haley's case. She was shocked that V had a familiar the first time, she was the one that reminded V about the familiar the second time, and she was the one that named it. She'd have to have severe amnesia to not remember such events when seeing the raven.

    That said, unless there's some completely unexpected plot element that explains this turn of events, I hereby award this strip the honor of "worst joke in the history of oots" .
    Last edited by Ashadar; 2012-01-05 at 12:56 PM.

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    Default Re: Blackwing: A Strange Bird is Explained

    Quote Originally Posted by Cronos988 View Post
    Well no, not really. They still think it's an illusion cast by V.
    Fourth panel:

    : Who said that?
    : That bird. I think it's the one that's been on V's shoulder these past two weeks.

    Fifth panel:

    : It can talk?!?
    : I think it's some sort of magical message that was triggered when I asked where V was, like a Magic Mouth spell. Those were V's words, just coming out of the bird's beak.

    My reading of this is that Roy and Belkar recognize the bird as an actual, physical creature, not an illusion. They believe it has had some spell cast on it, possibly a Magic Mouth spell or a spell of similar functionality. They do not believe the bird is an illusion here.

    Granted, the word "it" is thrown around a lot without clear and obvious antecedents to each, but it appears that in the fifth panel, when Roy says "I think it's some sort of magical message," "it" refers to the speech, not the bird itself.
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    Default Re: Blackwing: A Strange Bird is Explained

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashadar View Post
    Despite the 2 strips being really similar, the most noticeable difference is that the strip with Belkar is actually funny. Belkar has the memory of a lemming, and was a lot dumber back then, so the dialogue fits perfectly and the line with : "I don't trust you enough to believe you lied." is just gold.

    Rich apparently went for the same joke 500 strips later but it's just not funny, any way you look at it. You could see everyone agreeing with me by reading the comments on that strip's thread. The whole set up for the joke just seems incredibly forced, especially in Haley's case. She was shocked that V had a familiar the first time, she was the one that reminded V about the familiar the second time, and she was the one that named it. She'd have to have severe amnesia to not remember such events when seeing the raven.

    That said, unless there's some completely unexpected plot element that explains this turn of events, I hereby award this strip the honor of "worst joke in the history of oots" .
    I thought it was funny.

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    Default Re: Blackwing: A Strange Bird is Explained

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashadar View Post
    She'd have to have severe amnesia to not remember such events when seeing the raven.
    I have had countless experiences trying to remind friends of a joke they made a few weeks prior. Over a year of in-comic time passes between Haley naming Blackwing and strip #674, so I find it 100% plausible that Haley would have trouble remembering a single, incredibly minor event. Heck, how do we know she didn't go "Oh yeah! Blackwing!" in her head just a moment later? Last we saw, she seemed to at least be acknowledging that Blackwing is a living animal.

    And, no, "cart of gophers" is the worst joke in the history of OOTS.
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    Default Re: Blackwing: A Strange Bird is Explained

    Quote Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff View Post
    And, no, "cart of gophers" is the worst joke in the history of OOTS.
    I loved that joke.

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    Default Re: Blackwing: A Strange Bird is Explained

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutant Sheep View Post
    I always just thought Blackwing being forgotten/ignored was because most people forget/ignore familiars, and it is a joke. A long, extended, and black humor kind of joke.
    For short, a running gag.

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    Default Re: Blackwing: A Strange Bird is Explained

    Quote Originally Posted by eusticepious View Post
    "The Elf Who Cried Raven" is a reference to the Aesop Fable, the Boy Who Cried Wolf, with the moral that liars are not rewarded: even if they tell the truth, no one believes them. The title of 179, "Liar, Liar" also references how known liars cannot be believed. Both strips begin with Blackwing and show the other characters not believing something they were a part of, actually happened, i.e. lying changed reality. In 179, Belkar does not remember Roy telling him there would be giants and in 674, Haley does not remember Blackwing even though she named him.
    No....you missed the joke to the first strip. Belkar didn't forget anything, he's trying to make Roy look like an idiot by tricking him into admitting he's a liar.

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    Default Re: Blackwing: A Strange Bird is Explained

    Quote Originally Posted by Tebryn View Post
    Belkar didn't forget anything.
    Could be. I can't tell for sure if Belkar actually forgot or is just stringing along Roy. You are probably picking up on something that I missed.

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    Default Re: Blackwing: A Strange Bird is Explained

    Quote Originally Posted by Roderick_BR View Post
    For short, a running gag.
    A running gag about ignoring a sentient creature that can talk to you, yes. (And would not try to kill you on sight.)
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    Default Re: Blackwing: A Strange Bird is Explained

    The strange thing about it being viewed as only a joke was the sudden and complete role reversal of who is the straight man and who is the jokester regarding this joke.

    The comic starts out with V claiming that the bird is a class feature like a spell and not really part of reality unless needed, while the rest of the party wants to give the bird a name and treats him as though he exists.

    Then V gets some character development and acknowledges the bird as an independent agent and suddenly the rest of the party has completely reversed their opinion of said bird.

    If it is just more of the same joke it's strangely done. It'd be like if Elan got an item of +intelligence, but then Roy suddenly starts making lots of charming but stupid comments and Elan starts making sarcastic remarks about having to put up with Roy... just to keep the same joke rolling along.

    From what I have seen of the Giant's storycrafting I am still thinking this is a plot hook of some kind. Much like the MITD's disappointment at "I wanted it to happen really hard and it didn't happen" that we all thought was just a charming bit of dialogue ... until the strip where he wanted to make something happen really bad and it DID happen.
    Last edited by snikrept; 2012-01-08 at 03:47 AM.

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    Default Re: Blackwing: A Strange Bird is Explained

    Quote Originally Posted by snikrept View Post
    The strange thing about it being viewed as only a joke was the sudden and complete role reversal of who is the straight man and who is the jokester regarding this joke.
    Yes, the role reversal was the main part of the joke.
    Last edited by Jaros; 2012-01-08 at 08:42 AM.

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    Default Re: Blackwing: A Strange Bird is Explained

    Quote Originally Posted by snikrept View Post
    The strange thing about it being viewed as only a joke was the sudden and complete role reversal of who is the straight man and who is the jokester regarding this joke.

    The comic starts out with V claiming that the bird is a class feature like a spell and not really part of reality unless needed, while the rest of the party wants to give the bird a name and treats him as though he exists.

    Then V gets some character development and acknowledges the bird as an independent agent and suddenly the rest of the party has completely reversed their opinion of said bird.

    If it is just more of the same joke it's strangely done. It'd be like if Elan got an item of +intelligence, but then Roy suddenly starts making lots of charming but stupid comments and Elan starts making sarcastic remarks about having to put up with Roy... just to keep the same joke rolling along.

    From what I have seen of the Giant's storycrafting I am still thinking this is a plot hook of some kind. Much like the MITD's disappointment at "I wanted it to happen really hard and it didn't happen" that we all thought was just a charming bit of dialogue ... until the strip where he wanted to make something happen really bad and it DID happen.
    Snikrept. Really nice post. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on whether its a joke and connecting with the storycraft of the strip; I enjoyed reading this very much.

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    Default Re: Blackwing: A Strange Bird is Explained

    What I'd like to know is why does Blackwing the Raven have a yellow beak?

    Nah just kidding. Carry on.
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