Has Roys father already been judged

[Spacewolf]

He seems intent on killing Xykon but what happens if Xykon is killed as far as i can see theres no way he can pass the bar that they set when they where judging roy i mean they nearly knocked Roy over to NG heaven for emplying chaotic means. His father has dodged his reponsibilitys, and employed possibly evil means to decive roy as to the extent of Vs fall

[hamishspence]

It's debated a bit.

Some say that in order to be consistant, he must have gone through the same process Roy did, to "get everything else out of the way so that when the Oath's cleared up, he's ready".

Others suggest that the judging process may have been aborted only part way in, when the Blood Oath came up- so we don't know what the result would have been.

[bluewurm]

using the spoiler tag because i cant remember what info is from SOD

Who said that Eugene's alignment is LG to begin with? I would have pegged him as Neutral Good, maybe even True Neutral (he certainly has no regard for lawfulness but I'm not sure he's chaotic), as far as good/evil he prefers good over evil but is more interested in himself...

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his quest to kill Xykon arose not out of a desire to save the world or even just to kill an evil lich, it arose out of a need for personal revenge.

[Ancalagon]

It's debated a bit.

Actually, it has been debated a lot. ;)

[Dr.Epic]

He seems intent on killing Xykon but what happens if Xykon is killed as far as i can see theres no way he can pass the bar that they set when they where judging roy i mean they nearly knocked Roy over to NG heaven for emplying chaotic means. His father has dodged his reponsibilitys, and employed possibly evil means to decive roy as to the extent of Vs fall

If Roy can get in after...

-abandoning his teammate to an uncertain fate in the hands of hostile foes

-after betraying his entire party (who have stuck by him on quests that only benefit Roy) for some strange woman he just met and was only physically attracted to

...I'm sure Eugene can get in. Remember, we've seen very little of the guy's life. He may have spent a good portion of it doing good.

[Spacewolf]

using the spoiler tag because i cant remember what info is from SOD

Who said that Eugene's alignment is LG to begin with? I would have pegged him as Neutral Good, maybe even True Neutral (he certainly has no regard for lawfulness but I'm not sure he's chaotic), as far as good/evil he prefers good over evil but is more interested in himself...

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his quest to kill Xykon arose not out of a desire to save the world or even just to kill an evil lich, it arose out of a need for personal revenge.

i presumed from his knowlege of how the LG Angels judge and their knowlage of him that he had gone for that alignment, as well as how LG people of different faiths get judged away from each other the same would be expected to happen to different alignments

[Ancalagon]

...I'm sure Eugene can get in. Remember, we've seen very little of the guy's life. He may have spent a good portion of it doing good.

Correct. But what we have seen is not really speaking for him. Yes, he has a stick up his ass, but does that make him lawful enough? And he clearly has been shown to be possibly be more neutral than good.

But let's not get into another "The Alignment of Eugene Greenhilt and can he get into the LG afterlife" debate. But we should still hold, no matter what one might believe, that it is far from safe (in either direction). We can only rule out chaos and very probably evil... the remaining combinations are all still possible.

[DaveMcW]

Eugene's judgement scene is in Origin of the PCs.

[Kish]

*looks at the thread title*

Lots of people have judged Roy's father, yes.

[Steward]

If Roy can get in after...

-abandoning his teammate to an uncertain fate in the hands of hostile foes

-after betraying his entire party (who have stuck by him on quests that only benefit Roy) for some strange woman he just met and was only physically attracted to

...I'm sure Eugene can get in. Remember, we've seen very little of the guy's life. He may have spent a good portion of it doing good.

I thought the thing was that Roy managed to atone for his mistakes before he died, while Eugene never got the chance. I personally think he deserves redemption -- he's a huge jerk to his son but I don't think he deserves to be trapped in limbo for all eternity, but he just has to figure out some way to get past whatever is keeping him (psychologically speaking) from entering paradise.

[Belril Duskwalk]

I thought the thing was that Roy managed to atone for his mistakes before he died, while Eugene never got the chance. I personally think he deserves redemption -- he's a huge jerk to his son but I don't think he deserves to be trapped in limbo for all eternity, but he just has to figure out some way to get past whatever is keeping him (psychologically speaking) from entering paradise.

Comic 491

I thought the Deva who judged Roy was relatively clear that the thing keeping Eugene from entering paradise was his Blood Oath. More specifically, the fact that he gave up on fulfilling the Oath long before he died.

[Steward]

Comic 491

I thought the Deva who judged Roy was relatively clear that the thing keeping Eugene from entering paradise was his Blood Oath. More specifically, the fact that he gave up on fulfilling the Oath long before he died.

Thanks! I forgot about that conversation. That does seem to imply that the only barrier still keeping Eugene out of paradise is the Blood Oath, rather than the way he treated his son specifically (although that's why he was kept out in the first place).

If I understand it correctly, if Eugene had made that one last attempt, he would have entered paradise. But since he didn't, he's trapped on the cloud, until Roy, Julia, or one of their children fulfills the oath (I hope for his sake that someone else doesn't deal the final blow to Xykon!) He doesn't have to atone or make any changes to the way he thinks -- all of that is acceptable, if not desirable.

Thanks for clearing it up!

[AutomatedTeller]

I'm guessing that if someone else kills Xykon, he'll be able to go up. I doubt very much that beings of pure law and good would hold it against him on a technicality, if he qualified in general ways.

[FujinAkari]

Probably he has been judged, yes. Beings of Pure Law and Good do tend to be pretty big on consistency, so since we saw Roy judged before the oath was fulfilled, it is only logical that Eugene was too. Not to mention that Eugene seems very certain that the oath is the only thing keeping him out of the afterlife, and since he saw Roy judged, and we know him to be exceedingly intelligent, it is a bit too much a stretch to assume he wouldn't notice not having ever been judged himself :P

However, that isn't the big question. The big question is whether Eugene needs to be judged -again-. He hasn't just been sitting around and waiting, he's been assaulting beings of pure law and good, assisting in rigging a trial, and lying to celestial entities. These are actions most assuredly NOT in his initial judgement, and so there is a good chance he needs to repeat the process.

I'm guessing that if someone else kills Xykon, he'll be able to go up. I doubt very much that beings of pure law and good would hold it against him on a technicality, if he qualified in general ways.

That is another point of contention. Is Eugene being kept out of the LG afterlife because he failed to uphold a blood oath, or is the magic of the Blood Oath ("I will not rest until I have wrought terrible vengeance upon...") keeping him from -any- afterlife.

This may not be something the Deva has any say over, it may be that the blood oath itself prevents him from going into Celestia (or anywhere else) and, if so, then if someone else destroys Xykon, then he'll be stuck outside for all eternity...

[Joerg]

The big question is whether Eugene needs to be judged -again-. He hasn't just been sitting around and waiting, he's been assaulting beings of pure law and good, assisting in rigging a trial, and lying to celestial entities. These are actions most assuredly NOT in his initial judgement, and so there is a good chance he needs to repeat the process.

Indeed.

That is another point of contention. Is Eugene being kept out of the LG afterlife because he failed to uphold a blood oath, or is the magic of the Blood Oath ("I will not rest until I have wrought terrible vengeance upon...") keeping him from -any- afterlife.

I've always assumed it's the magic itself. If it was just a question of Eugene's actions -- or, in other words, his alignment -- he wouldn't be kept outside Celistia, but sent to another afterlife.

Or is it meant as a punishment? "We sentence you to cloud rest for X years, then you can enter paradise"?

[KoboldRevenge]

The big question is whether Eugene needs to be judged -again-. He hasn't just been sitting around and waiting, he's been assaulting beings of pure law and good, assisting in rigging a trial, and lying to celestial entities. These are actions most assuredly NOT in his initial judgement, and so there is a good chance he needs to repeat the process.

Can gods and paragons see all in their realms, as well as in the mortals? It might be a foolish question but I just though they might not have seen those actions for some reason. :\ (Also he burned the folder with the details of the elf's alarming deals with the forces of Evil here.)

[JoseB]

Or is it meant as a punishment? "We sentence you to cloud rest for X years, then you can enter paradise"?

A bit like Purgatory, then? Maybe the "higher ups" hope that X time in fluffy cloud limbo will make Eugene realize the defects he has/had, so he can make an effort to get rid of them (or at least acknowledge that he has them), thus becoming "enlightened" enough to enter Celestia...

Perhaps?

[Manga Shoggoth]

A bit like Purgatory, then? Maybe the "higher ups" hope that X time in fluffy cloud limbo will make Eugene realize the defects he has/had, so he can make an effort to get rid of them (or at least acknowledge that he has them), thus becoming "enlightened" enough to enter Celestia...

Perhaps?

I had the distinct sense that the Blood Oath blocks Eugene from the afterlife d'jour because he was the person who swore it. The fact that he abandoned the oath and dumped it on his children probably isn't helping much.

Roy, on the other hand, gets a pass in because:

• He didn't swear the oath himself (how much he is bound by it is up for debate).
• He was in the process of trying to fulfill the oath when he died.

The comments by Roy's Deva are simply trying to make a point to Eugene, one that she thinks his son has already learned

[Jay R]

The big question is whether Eugene needs to be judged -again-.

Unnecessary. On the subject of Eugene going to Hell, Roy's Archon said, "I think we are technically past the point where that would be a realistic possibility."

[Kish]

That doesn't guarantee he'd go to Celestia, just that he's unlikely to go to a Lower Plane. If--if--we treat Roy's Archon as authoritative there, it narrows the field of potential afterlives for Eugene from seventeen to somewhere from ten to twelve. Not to one.

[Nerd-o-rama]

It's possible Eugene got a passing score in his initial credit check, and he's counting on them not running another judgment after all his various chaotic and evil-ish actions as a spirit. On the other hand, Eugene probably doesn't care what afterlife he gets into at this point, as long as he gets to move on.

I'm going to laugh pretty hard if he gets re-judged at the end of the comic as Neutral and gets reincarnated instead.

[FujinAkari]

The comments by Roy's Deva are simply trying to make a point to Eugene, one that she thinks his son has already learned

I've said this in similar arguments, but if your contention is that a being of Pure Law and Good lied to Roy about the status of his Oath then your argument is pretty darn weak :P

Lies aren't something that the Deva can tell.

[Psyren]

I doubt he'll go to hell (or hades/abyss) but I also doubt he'll get into Celestia. His promise to Roy, as well as his other actions (impersonating a celestial, burning V's file), and above all his general attitude just don't speak of LG to me. It wouldn't be much of a message if you could "pass the exam" so to speak, then promptly throw all that morality/ethics out the window and still achieve the highest reward of your alignment.

[Joerg]

I just noted that in Start or Darkness:

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In the epilogue is a scene where Eugene is judged. The judgement goes quite well, but isn't completed because of the oath. Eugene isn't kept on the cloud as a punishment, the oath actually prevents him entering the afterlife.

[FujinAkari]

I just noted that in Start or Darkness:

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In the epilogue is a scene where Eugene is judged. The judgement goes quite well, but isn't completed because of the oath. Eugene isn't kept on the cloud as a punishment, the oath actually prevents him entering the afterlife.

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This is incorrect. We only see one panel of the judgement, we have absolutely no idea if it was the beginning, the end, somewhere in the middle, and we see absolutely none of the judgement except for that panel. So saying "it goes quite well" seems a stretch :P

Though, if nothing else, it does prove that Eugene did at least meet with the Deva.

It wouldn't be much of a message if you could "pass the exam" so to speak, then promptly throw all that morality/ethics out the window and still achieve the highest reward of your alignment.

How is Celestia "the highest reward of your alignment"? It is the afterlife that matches your alignment. It is sort of the natural result of dying... going to an afterlife. Celestia isn't a reward, it is the place that LG people go. Sort of like how a W-2 isn't the highest reward of employment, it is just something that happens to everyone who is employed.

[blazingshadow]

Sort of like how a W-2 isn't the highest reward of employment, it is just something that happens to everyone who is employed.

but it is still a reward

[FujinAkari]

but it is still a reward

I don't consider paying taxes a reward...

[blazingshadow]

keeping your country running should count as a reward.

in any case i should have clarified that going to celestia does count as a reward. just because it happens doesn't disqualify it as a reward

[FujinAkari]

in any case i should have clarified that going to celestia does count as a reward. just because it happens doesn't disqualify it as a reward

See? No. Taking a Breathe of Air isn't a reward, it is something that everyone does. Going to your afterlife isn't a reward anymore than getting to sleep at night. Those are things which everyone does, they are part of the natural cycle.

[blazingshadow]

keeping your alignment lawful good because you believe in that ethical and moral philosophy is not the same as breathing. breathing is hardly a test of character