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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    EdroGrimshell's Avatar

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    Default Gestalt Races [3.5]

    I had an interesting idea a while back when i needed to fill in a level for a character and couldn't find any class or template that fit, so i asked if i could take another race and add it to my current race for a +1 LA.

    So i got to like the idea and thought it'd be interesting to try using that and adapting it to any racial combination, including those with RHD and existing LA. It's fairly simple really but it makes the entire idea work and makes for rather interesting ideas.

    So without further ado, Gestalt Races.

    The most basic version is combining two LA 0 races to make an LA +1 race. The combination gains all the bonuses and penalties of both races and looks like a combination of the two races.

    However, a problem came when I thought about races like the Killoren, Elan, and Warforged fused with more standard humanoids or each other, the easy way out would be to use the non-humanoid component or just make them monstrous humanoids, but it doesn't seem to fit... so i went with an idea of different combinations having different results, for example:
    {table=head]Type 1|Type 2|Resulting Type
    Humanoid|Humanoid|Monstrous Humanoid
    Humanoid|Aberration|Monstrous Humanoid or Aberration
    Humanoid|Construct|Construct
    Humanoid|Fey|Fey or Monstrous Humanoid
    Fey|Aberration|Fey or Aberration[/table]

    This seems to work fairly well for the most part, but this is by no means complete or fixed, the DM can decide certain combinations don't fit the specifics.

    Now, the resulting race would have all the racial features of both sides of the combination, racial bonuses, penalties, and abilities, however, ones that are incompatable will show up at one point, which is generally up to the DM. However, racial bonuses and penalties would stack, meaning an Elf/Dwarf hybrid would have the +2 Dex of the elf and the -2 penalty of the Dwarf while the Con bonus and penalty cancel each other out.

    The result would count as both races where it'd be beneficial. So the above elf/dwarf would be immune to the ghouls paralysis, could take PrC, feats, and use magic items that are dwarf and/or elf only.

    Then there is the size problem that Amechra brought to my attention, a mix of creatures of the same size is simple, it's the same size as both creatures. However, it becomes more complicated for fusing creatures of a smaller or larger size. A small creature with a medium creature would be either small or medium with powerful or slight build respectively. GMs may rule that certain combinations are a certain size instead, but this gives a good base.

    The result may be more powerful than LA +1, in which case the DM is free to give the result a higher LA.

    Now, higher LA races are just as easy to work with, the LA of the two are added together with LA 0 races being counted as LA +0.5 for the first two and +1 for each race added beyond the first two. The DM can rule certain combinations are worth more than the combined LA of the races. A race with one LA +0 race and one with a higher LA is rounded up, so a catfolk/human would be an LA +2.

    The real problem comes when RHD are introduced. The option i have is that the race uses the highest RHD of the component races and uses the combined LA of both races as normal. Simple and it works. Again, the DM may rule that certain combinations are too powerful or may impose an additional +1 LA simply for the RHD, though some, who often see RHD as a detriment, may reduce the LA or remove some of the penalties.

    Another problem is the Favored Class. And again, the solution is rather simple, the one with the highest number of levels out of the favored classes is the current favored class.

    Next on the list was using more than two races, it'd follow the same rules as just using two races, combining the LA of all the combined races. Again, the DM may rule otherwise in certain situations since it could get rather ridiculous very quickly.

    Finally is the openning of new PrC combinations. This is intentional, being able to combine racial PrCs from various races would make for interesting combinations and can work with this system, however, it does open up the path for some broken combinations, so the DM and Players should moniter this so a scenario like that does not occur.

    So, fellow playgrounders, what do you think?
    Last edited by EdroGrimshell; 2012-02-20 at 01:38 AM.
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  2. - Top - End - #2
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    Amechra's Avatar

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    Default Re: Gestalt Races [3.5]

    I like it; I've been thinking of something similar, bu this works nicely.

    Sign me up for a Mongrelfolk/Dwarf- that's a +6 to Constitution, -2 to Int, and -6 to Charisma.

    For a Barbarian, those are acceptable losses.

    Something else that would be nice would be a Changeling/Dvati... LA +2, but worth it if LA reducers are allowed.

    How are you going to deal with size discrepancies? For example, a Human/Halfling would come out as a Small/Medium- would that be a Small creature with Powerful Build (funny with a Halflings -2 Str), or would it be a Medium creature with Slight Build?

    I would suggest removing Half-Orcs and Half-Elves from the game if you do this- they become redundant, after all.

    LA +1 Half-Orc: All of the Orc traits, plus the bonus feat and extra skill points. I call THAT hybrid vigor, thank you very much.

    However, I would suggest toning down the LA for a multi-gestalt; all of the playable races listed in the PhB, excluding the halfies, comes out to some abysmal ability score adjustments and a couple of ignorable abilities; not worth LA +4, in my opinion.

    I just thought of what my favorite gestalt would be... Human/Kobold. I'm thinking they would be Small, with both Powerful and Slight Build, and would, of course, have taken Dragonwrought as one of their 1st level feats. A little Loredrake in there, and you have a suitably powerful LA +1 on your hands.
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  3. - Top - End - #3
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Gestalt Races [3.5]

    Gestalt races sound cool. I like the idea. Is there actually a variety of 'construct' races though? Is there some homebrewed ones. I will advertise my current favorite races by Edro: the Zshar. I wouldn't mind gestalt class&race creating a uber crafter. I don't care too much for stat bonuses. I want flavor. And an elf/dwarf has one funky taste to it. The parents must have gone through some trials and tribulations. Ah young love.

  4. - Top - End - #4
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    Default Re: Gestalt Races [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Merchant View Post
    Gestalt races sound cool. I like the idea. Is there actually a variety of 'construct' races though? Is there some homebrewed ones. I will advertise my current favorite races by Edro: the Zshar. I wouldn't mind gestalt class&race creating a uber crafter. I don't care too much for stat bonuses. I want flavor. And an elf/dwarf has one funky taste to it. The parents must have gone through some trials and tribulations. Ah young love.
    My own race mentioned in the gestalt race's thread, nice.

    And for Amechra's concern, you are correct on the size problem, i had forgotten about that, but yes, the combination could be chosen from either Small with Powerful Build or Medium with Slight Build. Large races with medium races would be similar, with either Medium with PB or Large with SB. Medium with a smaller race (like the jermalaine, tiny size) either would not be available or would give only the middle size with both PB and SB.

    And on the multigestalt races, it's meant to be a pick&choose thing, my favorite combinations thus far are the Zshar/Elan/Khraan (the Khraan is from the Dreamscarred Press book High Psionics: Fleshcrafting) and the Kobold/Highborn Human (Homebrew race my DM uses that has bonuses to almost all ability scores, the bonus feat, and skill points for LA +1). It is definitely worth the +2 LA with the abilities they gain
    Last edited by EdroGrimshell; 2012-01-23 at 09:58 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GFawkes View Post
    You didn't poke fate with a stick. You set fate on fire, then whacked it with a 2x4 several times.
    Quote Originally Posted by blackwind1kaze View Post
    good thing they did body attribute instead of Physical attribute, otherwise the stats would look like:

    P. hysical
    M. ind
    S. pirit

    XD

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  5. - Top - End - #5
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    Default Re: Gestalt Races [3.5]

    What happens when the two races have differing Base Land Speeds, or when one has another type of movement?
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  6. - Top - End - #6
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    Default Re: Gestalt Races [3.5]

    I'd guess that new modes of transport like a fly or swim speed are gained at half the standard speed, and you'd split the difference on land speed, which oddly enough could leave you with a lot of 25ft base speeds out there....kinda funky imo.

    Then again maybe not, not my brew!
    Last edited by Veklim; 2012-01-23 at 04:31 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #7
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    EdroGrimshell's Avatar

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    Default Re: Gestalt Races [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by flabort View Post
    What happens when the two races have differing Base Land Speeds, or when one has another type of movement?
    Use the better of the two base land speeds. And if one has a speed the other doesn't then add it like you do the other racial features.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GFawkes View Post
    You didn't poke fate with a stick. You set fate on fire, then whacked it with a 2x4 several times.
    Quote Originally Posted by blackwind1kaze View Post
    good thing they did body attribute instead of Physical attribute, otherwise the stats would look like:

    P. hysical
    M. ind
    S. pirit

    XD

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  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Gestalt Races [3.5]

    Would a gnome/kobold be prone to self harm...?
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  9. - Top - End - #9
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    Default Re: Gestalt Races [3.5]

    My only problem is that for a lot of races adding them together and adding one to the total means they're really, really, really bad. Take drow and umm... hobgoblin (it's the first thing that came to my mind) +4 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Cha +4 to hide and move silently +2 to a few other skills, light blindness, SR 11 + Character level for LA +4.

    My suggestion would be simply make it the added together LA; with LA 0 races counting as 0.5 for calculations and rounded up if the result is a 0.5. This does have the problem of drows taking human and halfling for only +1 LA (still -2 Str, -2 Con, +4 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Cha, +4 to hide +2 to several skills, light blindness, SR 11 + Character level, bonus skills and bonus feat for LA +3).

    Also this makes Stoneblessed completely useless; I consider this a plus as it was already functionally useless.
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  10. - Top - End - #10
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    Default Re: Gestalt Races [3.5]

    Ok I have to say for my Gestalt crafter goodness I'd have to got with that crafting octopus race Edro made as well as the Zshar race.

    Which brings up a question. What happens when one of the races as more limbs? would you pick the ones with the most limbs? And when it comes to the octopus race would you get additional limbs that could be used in combat? I would say two additional arms that could be used seeing as how the Zshar race had two functional arms as there own.

    Again puting those two races together what if I take the throwback gene feat would my octo tentacles have claws(granted I may have to go back to see if they have tentacles or actual limbs)

  11. - Top - End - #11
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    EdroGrimshell's Avatar

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    Default Re: Gestalt Races [3.5]

    As i said before, you add on the racial features, which would include those additional arms since they are a racial feature
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    Quote Originally Posted by GFawkes View Post
    You didn't poke fate with a stick. You set fate on fire, then whacked it with a 2x4 several times.
    Quote Originally Posted by blackwind1kaze View Post
    good thing they did body attribute instead of Physical attribute, otherwise the stats would look like:

    P. hysical
    M. ind
    S. pirit

    XD

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  12. - Top - End - #12
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    Default Re: Gestalt Races [3.5]

    Mechanically, there's almost no difference between a Medium creature with Slight Build and a Small creature with Powerful Build. Either one basically boils down to "small or medium, whichever would be more advantageous given the situation". There is, however, a difference when you're looking at medium-large: Powerful Build does not give the reach increase (which is arguably the best part about being large), so Large with Slight Build is significantly better than Medium with Powerful Build.

    And I'd be inclined to call this "guidelines" rather than "rules": No matter how much detail you put into it, I think it's inevitable that there are always going to be more corner cases lurking in the shadows, that will need to be adjudicated on a case-by-case basis by the DM. Still, it's much simpler than previous attempts I've seen along these lines.

    Oh, and someone was asking about Construct races: The best-known example are the Warforged, from the Eberron campaign setting. They seem to be pretty well-regarded as fun and well-balanced.
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  13. - Top - End - #13
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    Default Re: Gestalt Races [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    And I'd be inclined to call this "guidelines" rather than "rules": No matter how much detail you put into it, I think it's inevitable that there are always going to be more corner cases lurking in the shadows, that will need to be adjudicated on a case-by-case basis by the DM. Still, it's much simpler than previous attempts I've seen along these lines.

    Oh, and someone was asking about Construct races: The best-known example are the Warforged, from the Eberron campaign setting. They seem to be pretty well-regarded as fun and well-balanced.
    I did say that DMs may rule that certain combinations warrant more or less LA.

    Also, i'm the one that mentioned construct races in the OP. Just a bit about mixing constructs with other races would still result in a construct
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    Quote Originally Posted by GFawkes View Post
    You didn't poke fate with a stick. You set fate on fire, then whacked it with a 2x4 several times.
    Quote Originally Posted by blackwind1kaze View Post
    good thing they did body attribute instead of Physical attribute, otherwise the stats would look like:

    P. hysical
    M. ind
    S. pirit

    XD

    Spoiler
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  14. - Top - End - #14
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    Default Re: Gestalt Races [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    I like it; I've been thinking of something similar, bu this works nicely.

    Sign me up for a Mongrelfolk/Dwarf- that's a +6 to Constitution, -2 to Int, and -6 to Charisma.
    Fluff-wise (the reason you're thinking of taking out the Half-races), this would not float since Mongrelfolk is a mixed race of itself already.

    Also, Human/Stongheart Halfling anyone?
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