What RPG's Should I Gain Proficiency With?

[Gemini Lupus]

So I'm looking at several RPG's to become proficient with. What I mean by this, is that I want to learn several different systems to a degree that I could be able to join a game with little difficulty or even run a game. I will note that I am already quite proficient with Dungeons and Dragons 3.x and Pathfinder, to a point where I almost know the system backwards and forwards.

I have a list of potential RPG's to learn and what I would like from you, my fellow Playgrounders, is what your opinions of these systems, perhaps an overview of pro's and con's of them if you are so inclined , are as well as suggestions of other systems to learn.

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1. AD&D - I really want to become proficient with the editions that preceded my edition of D&D so that I can experience what it was like for "Old-School" gamers.

2. Legend - This is more out of curiosity than anything, as from what I've read, it might be what people wanted from 4th edition.

3. GURPS - I've actually played GURPS once, but I would love to be able to learn the system better. I feel like having a super generic system like this under my belt could allow for the kinds of games that D&D doesn't particularly lend itself well to.

4. oWoD Storyteller System - This system I've also played before, but it has been years. I also note oWoD for two reasons: from what I've read nWoD doesn't have the same apocalyptic/dystopian feel that I like in oWoD and because when I attempted to read the nWoD books, I had a hard time reading them and started to get a head ache.

5. Pendragon - This is mostly because I'm a little bit obsessed with the Arthurian legends. I don't know much about this system.

6. Ars Magica - This is also one that has just peeked my interest and I don't know much about.

7. Warhammer RPG - Both the 40K and Fantasy Roleplay versions. These are because I really enjoy the setting and lore of the Warhammer games and have played a few games of the regular Warhammer 40K game.

8. Empires of Dust - This one is a game that I've heard my friends talk about a lot and I'm actually RL friends with the creator of the game.

Disclaimer: I really don't want this to become an edition war thread. I have played 4th edition and it just wasn't my cup of tea. I am however open to any other games you may be able to suggest.

Thanks in advance!

[Doorhandle]

You sound like someone who looking for something vastly different rather than the same but updated, but neverless I suggest you give Legend a whirl.

For one, it's free. It also similar to your typical d20 but has enough differences top make things interesting, such as adding base-attack-bonus to ac, and increasing melee range as levels rise. In addition, it's fantastic for warrior and rouges as it makes melee and skills in general MUCH more quadratic, at some expense to spellcasters.

It's also very modular allowing for easy multiclassing, and monster races too are integrated in this, no level-adjustment necessary. It's feats, especially the iconic and the legendary abilities, are also generally gamechangers rather than just flat bonuses, which is always nice. Finally, is has a prestige track which is based on kamen rider, and that's really all the excuses necessary to need to learn it.

[Siegel]

You seem to be interested mainly in old-school/traditional rpgs with a focus on fantasy. I would advice to look at indie rpgs as well. They have a lot of stuff you could learn for your game.

For fantasy there is of course the burning wheel. A really important part of the game, the first 70 pages are available for download for free here :

http://www.burningwheel.org/pdf/BWG_Preview.zip

Even if you don't want to play it i strongy would recomend to read what is in there. It could influence your roleplaying for the better. A lof of neat ideas in there.

[Totally Guy]

I posted a lecture recently that was about games "beyond Dungeons and Dragons". Here!

There's a whole wold of games out there. Even a lot of lighter rules games can be intense and compelling.

There's a game caled Lacuna that I really like and although it's only 50 pages in total it is geared for weird intense play.

[Tyrrell]

6. Ars Magica - This is also one that has just peeked my interest and I don't know much about.

Ars Magica has a fantastically deep rule set with regard to magic and with regard to advancement (that means, in those two areas, Ars is very far from rules light). You'll be impressed with the magic system in the core book and you should really play for quite a bit out of the core book to get a handle on what the magic system is capable of. But be aware that the core book magic system, great as it is, is only a thin sliver of the options available to you. It's easy to get buried in options with this game.

What I think makes it stand apart philosophically from other games is that the rules map very closely to the stuff in the setting. It's sort of a reverse image of stuff like Hero system where the game effects are produced and it's up to the players/GM to decide on the description. In ars the mechanics are the description

7. Warhammer RPG - Both the 40K and Fantasy Roleplay versions. These are because I really enjoy the setting and lore of the Warhammer games and have played a few games of the regular Warhammer 40K game.

Be aware that warhammer 1rst and second editions are entirely different from WFRP (aka. 3rd edition). the setting is as close to the same as they could make it and many of the setting elements specific to the older RPG were incorporated into the new RPG but the machine underneath that runs everything is completely swapped out. While I don't play the games, I've been told that it's a bigger change than between 3.5 and 4e.

[The Glyphstone]

I think RPGs are in the D20 Modern core book, and are an Exotic weapon.



On-topic...you said you like the feel of OWoD, but you might want to look up one of the fan-hacks that convert OWoD games into the NWoD ruleset. Old World was a confusing, convoluted mess of unintuitive rules, and Gygax help you if you tried to go cross-splat for any reason.

[Gemini Lupus]

To everyone who has posted thus far: Thank you! Your advice is helpful and I hope to keep getting more from the Playground.

@The Glyphstone: Would you be able to link me to any of these fan conversions?

@Tyrrell: Thanks, I have watched Iron Liz's reviews of every edition of Fantasy Roleplay and figured 1st or 2nd edition would be my best choice.

[The Glyphstone]

I'm not sure if any of them are online, most of what I've seen have been in person - though if you search enough, it's gotta be on the internet somewhere. Try the General WoD Discussion Thread in the Other Systems subforum; if anyone can find such a hack online, they can.

White Wolf also sells an Official Translation Guide, but I've never read it.

[Jerthanis]

I really would suggest you learn the oWoD rules, because they're the more complicated and kludgy version of nWoD rules, so if you understand the one you'll be able to understand the other far, far easier. Having proficiency with these systems opens up the paradigms of probably a dozen different game lines, each with interesting settings, tones and character archetypes.

Not to try to sound like a White Wolf Fanboy, because I'm not, but many game systems are designed to cater to only one type of game's themes and goals, but White Wolf's system is represented with options that explore tons and tons of themes. In White Wolf games I've explored themes of adolescence and parenthood through Prometheans; Responsibility and Choices in Exalted; victimization and vulnerability in Vampire; Human understanding of the universe VS Universe's shaping of the human mind as a chicken-egg dilemma in Mage; and Mythology and Human Frailty in Demon. I look forward to a future Abberant game with themes of how humans cope with social structures too large to be controlled at the same time individuals get nova powers which are similarly out of control of the one they were ostensibly to serve.

I wouldn't say that all these games were made possible or even particularly benefitted by the specific ruleset that is the WoD ruleset, but the fact is that they're all extremely similar, and so as a gaming group we've been able to move amongst these diverse gamelines and experience them all without relearning a system from scratch for each one, and yet having the structure set up for us in each game's core book in a way that a Universal system would be hard pressed to match.

[Gunpowder]

On an entirely different note, you should become proficient in the Lady Blackbird system*. Not because it's necessarily better than any of the others, it's just so different.

The game has very few rules. On character creation, you pick four traits, which are your abilities, and can be anything from titles and skills (eg. Airship Captain and Engineering) to personality traits (like Charming or Deceitful). You also get 16 tags to spread among these, which are more specific skills and items that come under the title. So for the Engineering trait, a player with the tags Gunpowder and Big Wrench will play very differently to one with Clockwork and Tool Kit.

Now, it's not totally without dice. Everything is done with d6s, and you start with a pool of 7. Whenever you try and do something that the DM wants to contest, the'll ask for a roll. You get one free dice for any roll, and can spend as many dice from your pool as you wish, so long as you have enough. But this is also where traits and tags come in - if you can justify a trait, you get an extra free dice. If you can hit any of the tags that come under it too, you can have even more free dice. The way this eventually works out is that players really fill the roles their characters will be good at (if you're spending all your dice pool to make rolls in areas that you're unskilled, you wont get very far). My group has always felt that it really makes everyone get into character, especially during one shots.

Now, it's not the best system for gamists or those who really feel combat should be more like a wargame, with ironclad rules for who can do what, when. But as a storytelling game, it's one of the most interesting I've ever seen, and, well, if you're trying to get experience in a range of RPGs, then you're going to want to look at the outliers, too.

*This was posted on the developers blog, The Mighty Atom, so don't worry about it being pirated or anything, to my knowledge it's a free system.

[DigoDragon]

I'm a fan of GURPS because it is indeed generic enough to fit into most genres. In particular, any campaign my group plays that takes place in the 19th through 21st centuries will usually be built around GURPS. Maybe the system a bit awkward in high fantasy, but then that's why you're an expert at D&D, yeah?

[Sorcerer Blob]

@Tyrrell: Thanks, I have watched Iron Liz's reviews of every edition of Fantasy Roleplay and figured 1st or 2nd edition would be my best choice.

I am very intrigued by this.. Links to aforementioned reviews?

On topic: I highly suggest checking out Mouse Guard. It's from the Burning Wheel line of games but is in every respect its own game. Its conflict resolution system took me some getting used to (I only cut my teeth on D&D, too!) but once you get it, it's pretty awesome and elegant. Besides, being a mouse and protecting various mouse villages and towns from threats like snakes? It doesn't get more iconic or epic than that.

[hamlet]

Warhammer Fantasy: It's a strange beast in some ways. First edition is actually very good, though wonky in spots. And has fewer books all together I think which might be a benefit. However, I find the 2nd edition to be moderately better. Objectively that is. It fixed some of the wonk and cleaned up the rough edges, but the two are fairly compatible side by side so you can cross polinate as you wish. Just keep in mind, though, that it's at least 50% tounge in cheek and not to be taken entirely seriously.


AD&D/Older Editions of D&D: OK, hang on a seond here.

*dons flame proof armor and helmet*

If you want to learn about AD&D first edition, and I would say that's a great idea, I'd send you slightly away from the actual AD&D books themselves and more towards something like OSRIC or Adventures Dark and Deep. Not Castles and Crusades, but it's not a bad choice either. Before the grognards come and lynch me and revoke my credentials, let me explain . . .

Though the PHB/DMG/MM trio are fantastic books and a great game, they are poorly edited and confusing to a modern audience that hasn't grown up with them in use. They can get fantastically frustrating if you don't know where you're going with them and don't have a guide. OSRIC and ADD are, for all intents and purposes, mechanically identical at the brass tacks level, but much better organized and edited and easier to get into your head. It's not that you can't understand the originals, it's just that for people looking to pick it up and explore the wonders of old school, finding something with less frustration might be a better idea.

If you're wanting to grab AD&D 2nd edition, just grab the three core books and ignore what it says about THAC0 in the combat chapter. It's very poorly written. Best calculation is for DM to add monster's AC to the player's roll and then compare to player's THAC0. Equal to or exceeds equals a hit. It's much faster and much cleaner than trying to figure out subtraction in your head on the fly and looking foolish while counting on your fingers. Been there, done that. Or, write out a chart. Also good.

The 2nd edition books were better written in terms of organization and clarity, though they are quite bland compared to High Gygaxian Prose, which has a charm all its own. They are also, largely, stripped of the flavor that Gary added. Essentially, 1st edition was D&D in Greyhawk. Period. The 2nd edition is a D&D toolkit from which you can branch off into any strange and wondrous place you can imagine with less rejiggering.

If you want to learn about BECMI (Basic, Expert, Companion, Master, Imortal) D&D, grab a copy of the Rules Cyclopedia. The best D&D book going, really. Ever. Period. I think it surpasses, or at least equals the 1e DMG easily. There's a very good clone of it, but unless you're looking for saving cash, I don't really see it as neccessary. The original is exceedingly good on its own.

All that said about D&D, even if you don't want to learn about the old school versions, pick up a copy of Gygax's DMG. No, really. It's a fabulous book that every gamer should have a copy of if only for the appendices.


Other Games: I'd recommend picking up and perusing a copy of either Palladium's RIFTS game, or their Fantasy Role Play game. Both use, essentially, the same system, but go in fabulously different directions. It's a lot like D&D's bastard cousin and is one of the major classic games from the way back years. Be prepared that then and to this day, the author has been known to say that "balance is what the DM/GM does, not an effect of the rules themselves." Though he says it in a much less politic way.

Also, grab up a copy of WEGS from Gamewick. Just good old fashioned mini's fun with that.

[Tyndmyr]

I suggest Warhammer. It's not the best game listed, but it sounds like the one you'll enjoy the most, because honestly, the best mechanics in the world tend not to be as interesting as fluff that fascinates you.

[wormwood]

I seriously enjoy the Warhammer setting and 2nd edition ruleset. First edition was good but, as mentioned, had some craziness built in. From what I understand, 3rd edition will rot your soul. If you do come within 50 feet of it, please decontaminate before you return.

I'd also like to add Savage Worlds to the list, since I'm a huge fan. It's simple, quick to learn, easy to run, and very flexible. You won't get a lot of deep detail in things but... that's not always what one is seeking.

[Gemini Lupus]

The Lady Blackbird system does look interesting and I think I'll see about getting my group proficient with it. And there seems to be overwhelming support for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 1st/2nd edition. I think I'm also going to add Star Wars Saga Edition to my list of systems, as it is similar enough to 3rd edition I think I can pick it up pretty quickly.

Thanks to everyone for their input and any more input is much appreciated!

[Bagelson]

FATE is a system that's been gaining some popularity lately. It's very much an evolving system with FATE 3.0 currently coagulating, so for looking into it I would suggest the newer games, such as the Dresden Files RPG or simply the free FATE 3.0 SRD or FreeFATE.

There are also some variants that have gained a lot of acclaim; Strands of Fate and Kerberos Club (FATE ed). They make a lot of changes, but the basic principle remains the same and if you know one FATE game you know most of them and can figure out the rest.

[UserClone]

Apocalypse World and Lady Blackbird. They have both been hacked into several differet genres already, and though LB hacks seem to have died out, there are already 2 hacks of AW being published. You'll get a lot of mileage out of learning just those two systems.

[Delwugor]

Just a point about Lady Blackbird, it takes about 5 minutes to become proficient in the system. It is that lite. An great game for one-shot nights but not sure about a long campaign.

If you like lite systems then look at Risus. Interesting and simple concept and there is alot of expansions for it.
MiniSix is a really good system based on the old WEG d6 system. Good cinematic action game that is lite on rule but heavy on flavor.

I'd also recommend a game with more of a narrative approach. Such as one of the many Fate games, DFRPG and Bulldogs! are real good, but Strands of Fate is my favorite.
Burning Wheel, they just came out with a new version. Good stuff! Play it and enjoy it!

[Autolykos]

IMHO every GM worth his salt should know GURPS and/or Wushu, depending on preferred style of play (GURPS is crunchier, Wushu is more drama-based). Sometimes you just have a campaign idea that doesn't fit any more specific system, so it's great to have a generic one to fall back on.

[Kurald Galain]

Once you know several systems, it becomes interesting to play a night of Paranoia that parodies them. Go visit DND sector and bash mutant orcs with your glowing metal bar! Enter WOD sector where all the clones turn hairy and scary when the monthcycle is full! Enjoy - it's the mandatory thing!

[Myou]

You simply must try F.A.T.A.L., it offers unparallelled attention to detail, it's character creation system alone having given my group hours of fun.

[Hiro Protagonest]

You simply must try F.A.T.A.L., it offers unparallelled attention to detail, it's character creation system alone having given my group hours of fun.

...You're being sarcastic, right?

[Myou]

...You're being sarcastic, right?

Oh come on now, don't say you're one of those people who baulks at rolling for genital dimensions. If you don't want to roll then just use the elite array!

[Knaight]

IMHO every GM worth his salt should know GURPS and/or Wushu, depending on preferred style of play (GURPS is crunchier, Wushu is more drama-based). Sometimes you just have a campaign idea that doesn't fit any more specific system, so it's great to have a generic one to fall back on.

Such as FATE, Fudge, Risus, HERO, or even Savage Worlds. There are a lot of options (though I personally detest Savage Worlds).

[JellyPooga]

GURPS is a system to become familiar with on the surface and then let other people run it. Personally, I love to run it, but I'm also a bit of a rules-masochist. However, if you get to know GURPS, it's a good spring board for other "generic" games...it hands the variety of options to you on a plate. If you're used to character restrictive games like D&D, then jumping straight into something like FATE, Risus or PERPS (all good systems) can seem daunting. "What class am I? What abilities can I have? How do I make a strength check?". These are all questions that can't really be easily answered by rule-light generic games. GURPS does, whilst simultaneously opening the door to the world of unlimited gaming.

Warhammer FRP is a bit of a weird system. 1ed has the best setting; very grim, very dirty. The rules also reflect this; they're not fair, they're not balanced and they will get you killed if you do something stupid like follow the thief that just picked your pocket or go into the woods at night. 2ed is a little lighter and more multicultural than 1ed. The rules are also better balanced and a little more forgiving. Personally, I think it loses something because of this. 3ed, though I've not yet played it myslef, looks horrible and I won't be touching without an NBC suit and a long pair of tongs.

Warhammer 40k Roleplaying is a different kettle of fish. It largely follows the 2ed WHFRP rules (with a few fairly minor modifications and cosmetic changes), but is divided into three (AFAIK) very distinct "tiers"; Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader and Deathwatch. DH is grim, it's gritty, it's full of flavour and rich atmosphere...as long as you like playing as a pawn of the Inquisition. RT is grim, it's gritty, you're in charge of a ship crewed by thousands (seriously) and as long as you're ok with being forced to be a Rogue Trader, it's great. In Deathwatch you. get. to. be. a. SPAAAACE MAREEEEEEEN!!!1!1! That's how excited you're supposed to be about it. I wasn't. None of the rules for any of them are bad (as such) and they pretty much do what they say on the tin, but each book has a very specific role in mind for you as a character and a rather specific style of campaign. Unlike WHFRP, which largely lets you be whatever you want to be and do whatever you want to do, DH/RT/DW pigeon-holes you, as a group, into a certain style of game. Sure, you could ignore it and go do what you want to, but the books shove it in your face so much that it's hard to ignore.

[erikun]

I would recommend Fudge, in part because it moves away from numbers for stats and because it is sort of a build-your-own-system system, and part because it is free. Fate is based off the same mechanics.

As an oddball option, Warrior Cats RPG, because it is free, and because it is diceless. Honestly, there are better systems (including better diceless systems) out there, but not so easily accessable. At least see how it works out.

Finally, I will recommend being familiar with the Tri-Stat system. Not because it is particularly good, but just as another way to look at how to do a RPG.

[Aidan305]

Paranoia is one that every gamer (planning to GM a game) should know. After all, it is the best RPG. The computer says so. Do you trust the computer? If not, please report for mandatory mindscrubbing. It can also get disturbingly dark when played straight.

Call of Cthulhu is another classic that can provide nice one-shots as breaks in your campaigns or longer campaigns if you want (Also its modern spin-offs: Delta Green and The Laundry)

Both systems are extremely simple to learn.

[Suddo]

Shadow Run is fun. Its Sci-Fi Cyber-Punk. It has a drastically different system to the d20 system, both parties roll Xd6 and compare the number of 6s. They also have a fun leveling mechanic and balance of physical versus magical stuff. I enjoyed the little I played of it.

[Siegel]

It also has tons of subsystems that you need to learn