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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Deepbluediver's Avatar

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    Default Clerics, Now in Three Flavors!

    8/26/15 Update:I've gone back to school, so the rebalance project is largely on pause. I'm working on stuff behind the scenes, but new contet probably won't be posted very often.
    Also, I tweaked a few class-features.

    6/12/13 Update: I'm altering the spells per day and changing how clerics learn spells. Also switching up some of the special abilities, mainly domain powers with some tweaks to Channel Energy.


    Introduction
    This is part of an ongoing project of mine to rebalance the 11 core classes so they are closer together in power. I don't imagine that I can bring everything right down to the same level, but if I can get everything to be around tier 3-ish I figure I'll be doing pretty good.
    Everything here is intended to work best with my other homebrew, but it should be possible to slot into most 3.5 and Pathfinder games with minimal changes. If you see a term that confuses you please message me about it.

    A note before we begin: One thing that bugged me about clerics for the longest time was that in terms of game mechanics, they where virtually identical despite serving vastly different deities. You could have a cleric of Pelor, a cleric of Vecna, and a cleric of Hextor and the only readily notable difference would be the color of their armor. I've set out to change that, and in doing so I'm stretching the definition of what a class is, a bit. And also because I'm fantastic at making tables and I love it SOOOO much!
    /sarcasm
    As usual, notes about why I'm doing something in particular are in the spoilered text.



    Cleric
    Alignment
    A cleric’s alignment must be the same as his deity’s unless otherwise noted.
    Spoiler
    Show
    [Some classes have exceedingly restrictive aligment or roleplaying requirements (druid, monk, paladin, etc) and then we get to clerics and the PHB is like, "just make up your own religion!" I decided that it won't work that way any more. No more making CN clerics with horribly conflicting domains; pick a diety that suits your character. There are so many of them by now that you should be able to find at least one who you can live with. There's a chart in the next post of the most common ones. Feel free to PM me with a request for any other dieties.]

    Hit Points per level
    4+1d4

    Class Skills
    The cleric’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).

    Domains and Class Skills
    A cleric who chooses the Animal domain adds the Handle animale skill to the cleric class skills listed above. A cleric who chooses the Plant domain adds Knowledge (nature) (Int). A cleric who chooses the Knowledge domain adds any 3 Knowledge (Int) skills of his choice to the list. A cleric who chooses the Travel domain adds Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (local) and Survival (Wis). A cleric who chooses the Trickery domain adds Bluff (Cha), Disguise (Cha), and Sleight of Hand (Dex) to the list.

    Skill Points at 1st Level
    (2 + Int modifier) Χ4

    Skill Points at Each Additional Level
    2 + Int modifier

    Cleric- Guardian
    Spoiler
    Show
    Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th
    1st
    +1
    +2
    +0
    +2
    Channel Energy 1d6 1 — — — —
    2nd
    +2
    +3
    +0
    +3
    Fighter Bonus Feat, First Domain 2 — — — —
    3rd
    +3
    +3
    +1
    +3
    Channel Energy 2d6 3 — — — —
    4th
    +4
    +4
    +1
    +4
    Prayers of the Faithful 2/day 4 — — — —
    5th
    +5
    +4
    +1
    +4
    Channel Energy 3d6 4 1 — — —
    6th
    +6/+1
    +5
    +2
    +5
    Fighter Bonus Feat 5 2 — — —
    7th
    +7/+2
    +5
    +2
    +5
    Channel Energy 4d6 5 3 — — —
    8th
    +8/+3
    +6
    +2
    +6
    Prayers of the Faithful 3/day 6 4 — — —
    9th
    +9/+4
    +6
    +3
    +6
    Channel Energy 5d6 6 4 1 — —
    10th
    +10/+5
    +7
    +3
    +7
    Fighter Bonus Feat, Second Domain 7 5 2 — —
    11th
    +11/+6/+6
    +7
    +3
    +7
    Channel Energy 6d6 7 5 3 — —
    12th
    +12/+7/+7
    +8
    +4
    +8
    Prayers of the Faithful 4/day 7 6 4 — —
    13th
    +13/+8/+8
    +8
    +4
    +8
    Channel Energy 7d6 8 6 4 1 —
    14th
    +14/+9/+9
    +9
    +4
    +9
    Fighter Bonus Feat 8 7 5 2 —
    15th
    +15/+10/+10
    +9
    +5
    +9
    Channel Energy 8d6 8 7 5 3 —
    16th
    +16/+11/+11/+11
    +10
    +5
    +10
    Prayers of the Faithful 6/day 9 7 6 4 —
    17th
    +17/+12/+12/+12
    +10
    +5
    +10
    Channel Energy 9d6 9 8 6 4 1
    18th
    +18/+13/+13/+13
    +11
    +6
    +1
    Fighter Bonus Feat, Third Domain 9 8 7 5 2
    19th
    +19/+14/+14/+14
    +11
    +6
    +11
    Channel Energy 10d6 10 8 7 5 3
    20th
    +20/+15/+15/+15
    +12
    +6
    +12
    Divine Combat, Prayers of the Faithful 8/day 10 9 7 6 4

    Cleric- Sentinel
    Spoiler
    Show
    Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th
    1st
    +0
    +2
    +0
    +2
    Channel Energy 1d6 3 — — — — — —
    2nd
    +1
    +3
    +0
    +3
    Fighter Bonus Feat, First Domain 3 1 — — — — —
    3rd
    +2
    +3
    +1
    +3
    Channel Energy 2d6 4 2 — — — — —
    4th
    +3
    +4
    +1
    +4
    Prayers of the Faithful 2/day 4 3 — — — — —
    5th
    +3
    +4
    +1
    +4
    Channel Energy 3d6 5 3 1 — — — —
    6th
    +4
    +5
    +2
    +5
    Bonus Metamagic Feat 5 4 2 — — — —
    7th
    +5
    +5
    +2
    +5
    Channel Energy 4d6 5 4 3 — — — —
    8th
    +6/+1
    +6
    +2
    +6
    Prayers of the Faithful 3/day 6 5 3 1 — — —
    9th
    +6/+1
    +6
    +3
    +6
    Channel Energy 5d6 6 5 4 2 — — —
    10th
    +7/+2
    +7
    +3
    +7
    Fighter Bonus Feat, Second Domain 6 5 4 3 — — —
    11th
    +8/+3
    +7
    +3
    +7
    Channel Energy 6d6 7 6 5 3 1 — —
    12th
    +9/+4
    +8
    +4
    +8
    Prayers of the Faithful 4/day 7 6 5 4 2 — —
    13th
    +9/+4
    +8
    +4
    +8
    Channel Energy 7d6 7 6 5 4 3 — —
    14th
    +10/+5
    +9
    +4
    +9
    Bonus Metamagic Feat 7 7 6 5 3 1 —
    15th
    +11/+6/+6
    +9
    +5
    +9
    Channel Energy 8d6 8 7 6 5 4 2 —
    16th
    +12/+7/+7
    +10
    +5
    +10
    Prayers of the Faithful 6/day 8 7 6 5 4 3 —
    17th
    +12/+7/+7
    +10
    +5
    +10
    Channel Energy 9d6 8 7 7 6 5 3 1
    18th
    +13/+8/+8
    +11
    +6
    +1
    Fighter Bonus Feat, Third Domain 8 8 7 6 5 4 2
    19th
    +14/+9/+9
    +11
    +6
    +11
    Channel Energy 10d6 9 8 7 6 5 4 3
    20th
    +15/+10/+10
    +12
    +6
    +12
    Divine Success, Prayers of the Faithful 8/day 9 8 7 6 5 5 3

    Cleric- Spiritualist
    Spoiler
    Show
    Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th
    1st
    +0
    +2
    +0
    +2
    Channel Energy 1d6 2 1 — — — — — — — —
    2nd
    +1
    +3
    +0
    +3
    Bonus Metamagic Feat, First Domain 3 2 — — — — — — — —
    3rd
    +1
    +3
    +1
    +3
    Channel Energy 2d6 3 2 1 — — — — — — —
    4th
    +2
    +4
    +1
    +4
    Prayers of the Faithful 2/day 3 3 2 — — — — — — —
    5th
    +2
    +4
    +1
    +4
    Channel Energy 3d6 4 3 2 1 — — — — — —
    6th
    +3
    +5
    +2
    +5
    Bonus Metamagic Feat 4 4 3 2 — — — — — —
    7th
    +3
    +5
    +2
    +5
    Channel Energy 4d6 4 4 3 2 1 — — — — —
    8th
    +4
    +6
    +2
    +6
    Prayers of the Faithful 3/day 4 4 3 3 2 — — — — —
    9th
    +4
    +6
    +3
    +6
    Channel Energy 5d6 5 4 4 3 2 1 — — — —
    10th
    +5
    +7
    +3
    +7
    Bonus Metamagic Feat, Second Domain 5 4 4 3 3 2 — — — —
    11th
    +5
    +7
    +3
    +7
    Channel Energy 6d6 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 — — —
    12th
    +6/+1
    +8
    +4
    +8
    Prayers of the Faithful 4/day 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 — — —
    13th
    +6/+1
    +8
    +4
    +8
    Channel Energy 7d6 5 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 — —
    14th
    +7/+2
    +9
    +4
    +9
    Bonus Metamagic Feat 6 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 — —
    15th
    +7/+2
    +9
    +5
    +9
    Channel Energy 8d6 6 5 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 —
    16th
    +8/+3
    +10
    +5
    +10
    Prayers of the Faithful 6/day 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 —
    17th
    +8/+3
    +10
    +5
    +10
    Channel Energy 9d6 6 6 5 5 5 4 4 3 2 1
    18th
    +9/+4
    +11
    +6
    +1
    Bonus Metamagic Feat, Third Domain 6 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 3 2
    19th
    +9/+4
    +11
    +6
    +11
    Channel Energy 10d6 6 6 6 5 5 4 4 4 3 2
    20th
    +10/+5
    +12
    +6
    +12
    Divine Spellcraft, Prayers of the Faithful 8/day 7 6 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 3

    Class Features
    All of the following are class features of the cleric.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency
    Clerics generally follow one of three training regimes based on their own abilities, temperament, and their deity’s preference. All clerics are proficient with the favored weapon of their diety.

    Clerics who favor direct combat or have war-like deities take the martial path, and gain bonuses to their melee abilities; in exchange they can cast far fewer spells than other clerics. These clerics are often called “Champions” and are proficient with Simple Weapons and 1 category of Martial Weapons (Slashing, Piercing, Bludgeoning, or Ranged). They are also proficient with light and medium armor, including bucklers and infantry shields.

    Clerics who try to balance combat and spell-casting are called “Sentinels” and have less specialization in either area, but tend to be more suited to filling different roles as the situation calls for it. They are proficient with all simple weapons and with light armor, including bucklers.

    Clerics who favor meditation, support roles, and spellcasting are called “Spiritualists”; they are less suited to direct combat but can cast far more spells and have access to more powerful magic than other clerics. These clerics are not proficient with any weapons, nor are they proficient with any type of armor.

    Aura (Ex)
    A cleric has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to his deity’s alignment (see the detect evil spell for details). The aura always matches that of the deity, even if the cleric’s alignment is slightly different.

    Spells
    A cleric casts divine spells, which are drawn from the cleric spell list. A cleric must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time.

    Like other spellcasters, a cleric can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day; in addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intellect score.

    At first level a cleric chooses 3 domains available to his deity; he knows all spells of those domains for which he has spell levels available.
    Guardians and Sentinels also learn one spell from the Cleric spell-list every odd level that they can cast at (3rd and 1st, respectively). Spiritualists learn one spell from the Cleric spell-list every level.
    Spoiler
    Show
    This is a change that was not in the original post. It was inspired by Grod The Giant and I think it's a good way to simplify the spells per day and limit a cleric's versatility somewhat. It's also partially based on my "Standardizing spells/day" idea, so that you don't need to reference quite so many charts for each class.

    Channel Energy (Su)
    A cleric can release a wave of energy by channeling the power of her faith through her holy (or unholy) symbol to heal and cause damage, depending on the type of energy channeled.
    A cleric may channel energy a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier; the cleric may always choose to not include herself in the effect.

    A good cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a good deity) channels positive energy, and an evil cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships an evil deity) channels negative energy.
    A lawful cleric of a Lawful-neutral deity channels axiomatic energy which deals damage to elementals and chaotic creatures while healing constructs and lawful creatures. A chaotic cleric of a chaotic-neutral deity channels anarchic energy which does the opposite (deals damage to constructs and lawful creatures and heals elementals and chaotic creatures).
    True-neutral clerics of true-neutral deities channel sublime energy, which heals TN creatures as well as Animal and Plant creatures and damages LG, CG, LE, and CE creatures as well as all Outsiders.

    Channeling energy causes a burst that affects all creatures in a 30-foot radius centered on the cleric. The amount of damage dealt or healed is equal to 1d6 points of damage plus 1d6 points of damage for every two cleric levels beyond 1st (2d6 at 3rd, 3d6 at 5th, and so on). Creatures that take damage from channeled energy receive a Will save to halve the damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10+1/2 the cleric's level+ the cleric's Wisdom modifier. Creatures healed by channel energy cannot exceed their maximum hit point total—all excess healing is lost.
    A cleric may also channel energy into a single creature as a Full-round action. When used in this manner, the damage dealt or healed is calculated with d10's instead of d6's. The range for this ability is 25 ft.+5 ft/2 levels (the same as a short-range spell). Targets may make a Reflex save for half-damage.

    Any class that uses divine spellcasting stacks to determine the power of the Cleric's channel energy ability, however your uses per day are determined only from 1 class using the higher value.
    Spoiler
    Show
    The burst effect has been converted to a Standard action, since it's a little harder to use. I think the positive energy version is still pretty good against undead, since you can wipe out a horde of weak creatures at the same time as healing your party. The negative energy/damaging version is a little tougher unless your entire party builds to plan for it, which is part of the reason I added the option to single-target the ability instead.

    Fighter Bonus Feats
    Clerics often involve themselves in direct conflicts over their faith, or to defend the deities worshipers. Some clerics have access to fighter bonus feats, just as a fighter would. They may select any fighter bonus feat for which they meet the prerequisites.

    Bonus Metamagic Feats
    Clerics are spellcasters, some more than others, and metamagic can aid them in displaying the awesome power of their diety. A cleric may select any metamagic feat for which they meet the prerequisites.

    Domains
    At second level, the cleric gains the granted powers from one domain to which he has access. He gains a second set of domain powers and 10th level, and a third at 18th.
    Spoiler
    Show
    This is another change that wasn't in the original post; it is intended to limit the benefit of the always-active domain powers. Like everything else in 3.5, the domains varied in strength and usefullness. I think that most people agree Pathfinder did it better, so I would recommend using those.

    Prayers of the Faithful (Su)
    As a swift action, the cleric offers up a prayer to his diety for the protection and safety of his allies. Each ally within range (25 ft.+5 ft/2 levels) who is the same alignment as on at least 1 axis (good/evil or chaos/law) may join the cleric in prayer as an immediate action.
    Each person who prays grants a +1 enhancement bonus that increases AC and SR to each other player who shares an alignment with the cleric.
    This effect lasts for 1 minute per use.

    Example: A party of 4 consists of a neutral good cleric, a lawful good paladin, a chaotic good warrior, and a chaotic Nuetral rogue. The cleric offers up a prayer to his diety, granting a +1 bonus to the paladin and the warrior, but not the rogue. The paladin and warrior both join him, granting a +1 bonus to each other and to the cleric. Each one of the three gets a +2 enhancement bonus. The rogue gets nothing because he does not share any alignments with the cleric.
    Alternatively, suppose the warrior, for whatever reason, cannot join them in prayer. The warrior would get a +2 bonus (+1 each from the paladin and the cleric) but the cleric and paladin would get only +1 each (from each other). The rogue still gets nothing.

    Capstone Abilities
    Divine Combat
    3 times per day the cleric may choose for 1 round to have his attack rolls automatically succeed (as if he had rolled a natural 20) or have his opponent's attack roll automatically miss (as if they had rolled a 1). The cleric must declare he is using this ability before the rolls are made and it consumes his immediate action for that round. The cleric always threatens a critical hit with this ability but must still roll to see if he confirms the critical hit.

    Divine Success
    3 times per day at will the cleric may choose to take 20 on any skill or ability check, even if rushed or threatened and taking no extra time. The cleric must declare he is using this ability before making any roll. The cleric may expend 1 use of this ability to place a blessing on any friendly party member within 50 ft. as a swift action that grants them Divine Success on the next ability or skill check they make. If unused, the blessing lasts a maximum of 1 minute before dispersing.

    Divine Spellcasting
    3 times per day the cleric may choose to have his spellcraft roll automatically succeed (as if he had rolled a 20) as an immediate action. The cleric must declare he is using this ability before the rolls are made. The cleric does not achieve a critical success when using this ability.

    Bonus Languages
    A cleric’s bonus language options include Celestial, Abyssal, and Infernal (the languages of good, chaotic evil, and lawful evil outsiders, respectively). These choices are in addition to the bonus languages available to the character because of his race.



    Summary
    Between all the various versions of this class, it's undergone some major changes. Many of them have been nerfs, admittedly, because cleric was very powerful and VERY versatile to begin with. You can drop and AMF on a wizard, but the cleric will still bash your head in with his mace. I have also tried to emphasize versions of the cleric that are not the box-o-bandaids model that WotC seemed to think everyone would play.
    As always, I welcome any feedback or criticism.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2018-03-10 at 02:54 PM. Reason: updating stuff
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's not called common because the sense is common, it's called common because it's about common things.
    Homebrew Extended Signature!

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Deepbluediver's Avatar

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    Default Re: Clerics, Now in Three Flavors!

    6/12/13 Update: I'm going to leave this up since it was part of the original post, and in case anyone wants to use it. However, with the other revsisions I've had a change of heart, and I would allow any diety to have clerics of any type in a game.
    Again, I would also recommend using the PF domains in place of 3.5.


    Dieties & Domains

    Cleric Types
    {table=head]Diety|Alignment|Cleric Alignments|Domains|Special Requirements|Guardian|Sentinel|Spiritualist

    Pelor|Neutral Good|any Good|Good, Healing, Strength, Sun, Travel||X|X|X

    Corellon Larethian|Chaotic Good|any Good or CN|Chaos, Good, Protection, War|must be an elf or half-elf||X|X

    Carl Glittergold|Neutral Good|NG or CG|Community, Craft, Creation, Gnome, Good, Protection, Trickery|||X|X

    Moradin|Lawful Good|any Good or LN|Creation, Earth, Good, Law Protection|cannot be an orc, goblin, or elf|X|X|

    Yondalla|Lawful Good|any Good, LN, or TN|Family, Good, Halfling, Law, Protection|||X|X

    Gruumsh|Chaotic Evil|CE, CN, or NE|Cavern, Chaos, Evil, Hatred, Orc, Strength, War|must be an orc, half orc, or other monstrous humanoid|X|X|

    Boccob|Neutral|TN, NG, NE, LN, or CN|Magic, Knowledge, Mind, Oracle, Trickery||||X

    Wee Jas|Lawful Neutral|LE, LN, or NE|Death, Domination, Inquisition, Law, Magic, Mind, Repose|||X|X

    Nerull|Neutral Evil|any Evil|Death, Evil, Pestilence, Trickery|||X|

    {colsp=8}

    Ehlonna|Neutral good|any Good|Animals, Celerity, Good, Plant, Purification, Sun|||X|X

    Eythnul|Chaotic Evil|NE or CE|Chaos, Destruction, Evil, Trickery, War||X|X|

    Fharlanghn|Neutral|any non-evil|Balance, Celerity, Good, Plant, Purification, Sun|||X|X

    Heironeous|Lawful Good|any Good or LN|Glory, Good, Inquisition, Law, War||X|X|

    Hextor|Lawful Evil|any Evil or LN|Destruction, Domination, Evil, Law, War||X|X|

    Kord|Chaotic Good|CG, Good, or CN|Chaos, Good, Luck, Strength, Competition||X||

    Obad-Hai|Neutral|TN, Good, Evil, LN or CN|Air, Animal, Earth, Fire, Plant, Water|||X|X

    Olidammara|Chaotic Neutral|CG, Good, CN, or TN|Chaos, Luck, Trickery|||X|

    Saint Cuthbert|Lawful Neutral|LG, NG, or TN|Destruction, Domination, Law, Protection, Strength||X|X|

    Vecna|Neutral Evil|NE or LE|Evil, Knowledge, Magic|||X|X

    {colsp=8}

    Bahamut|Lawful Good|any non-Evil|Air, Cold, Dragon, Good, Law, Luck, Nobility, Protection, Storm|must be a dragon, part dragon, or of a dragon-related race (like kobolds)|X|X|X

    Tiamat|Lawful Evil|any non-good|Destruction, Dragon, Evil, Greed, Hatred, Law, Scalykind, Trickery, Tyranny|must be a dragon, part dragon, or of a dragon-related race (like kobolds)|X|X|X
    [/table]
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2013-06-12 at 12:14 PM. Reason: update
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's not called common because the sense is common, it's called common because it's about common things.
    Homebrew Extended Signature!

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    Default Re: Clerics, Now in Three Flavors!

    Very nice! Subscribing now

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    Default Re: Clerics, Now in Three Flavors!

    Nerull should have spiritual clerics as well, seeing as how he's worshiped by necromancers and his clerics take levels in necromancer. His most infamous pupil was Kyuss, a necromancer-priest, as well.

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    Default Re: Clerics, Now in Three Flavors!

    Shouldn't it be Guardian, Sentinel and Consular?

    Reading it over more fully some time today, but I like it at a glance.
    Quote Originally Posted by KKL
    D&D is its own momentum and does its own fantasy. It emulates itself in an incestuous mess.

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    Default Re: Clerics, Now in Three Flavors!

    Quote Originally Posted by LordofBones View Post
    Nerull should have spiritual clerics as well, seeing as how he's worshiped by necromancers and his clerics take levels in necromancer. His most infamous pupil was Kyuss, a necromancer-priest, as well.
    I think my original line of reasoning went something like this: Wee Jas and Nerull are both death gods, but Wee Jas has access to the mind and magic domains, making her a better fit for primary spellcaster clerics. The description of Nerull makes a point to focus on death via murder, but doesn't really emphasize if he cares wether it's by blade or spell.
    That being said, everything I write is basically a suggestion anyway, and if you or your DM want to run a campaign with a Nerull-spiritualist, be my guest. Maybe you could even make it a plot point that this character is an exception to the rule.


    Quote Originally Posted by gkathellar View Post
    Shouldn't it be Guardian, Sentinel and Consular?

    Reading it over more fully some time today, but I like it at a glance.
    Thanks!

    I'm assuming those are Jedi ranks, right? I haven't read a lot of the Star Wars EU stuff, so it's mostly coincedence that 2 of the 3 match up. I was really just looking for something to differentiate the three varieites that had more flavor to it than "martial-cleric", "spellcaster-cleric", and "hybrid-cleric". The titles are entirely fluff anyhow. For example I really doubt clerics of Nerull or Hextor would call themselves "guardians".

    Feel free to refluff as much as you like so you can play Thromor Skullkrush, Bonesplitter-cleric of Gruumsh.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2012-07-13 at 09:46 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's not called common because the sense is common, it's called common because it's about common things.
    Homebrew Extended Signature!

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    Default Re: Clerics, Now in Three Flavors!

    I like these clerics, I certainly like how they get more than simply spells and turning, this could be very fun to play, I just -know- it...

    my favorite of this is the prayers of the faithful ability, it encourages making a compatible party with similar beliefs and/or suitable alignments.

    I'd like to see it when you go through the other classes.
    Thoughts:
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    Default Re: Clerics, Now in Three Flavors!

    If the goal is to nerf all classes to between high tier 3 and low tier 2, I find it hard to call this a success until we can see just how much you nerfed spells. I mean each one of these still has 9th level spells drawn from the full cleric spell list, plus a load of class features.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Zahn View Post
    my favorite of this is the prayers of the faithful ability, it encourages making a compatible party with similar beliefs and/or suitable alignments.
    Thanks; I've tried to come up with something interesting and unique for each class; I was particularly proud of this inspiration.


    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    If the goal is to nerf all classes to between high tier 3 and low tier 2, I find it hard to call this a success until we can see just how much you nerfed spells. I mean each one of these still has 9th level spells drawn from the full cleric spell list, plus a load of class features.
    I think you may be confused/I wasn't clear about something. The only cleric with 9th level cleric spells is the Spiritualist. The Guardian and the Sentinel stop at 5th and 7th level, respectively, and after that they are limited to domain spells. In my tables up above, "--" means "no cleric spells". So "--+2" means no cleric spells (not even bonus spells) and 2 domain spells. If I can make this more obvious, please suggest something.

    Yes, there are quite a variety of domains, but you are limited to a choice of only 2 in certain combinations. I originally stopped domain spells at lower levels as well, but spells are fun, and with the restriction on certain dieties and the types of clerics they could sponsor, you'd probably almost never see a 9th level war domain spell.


    I definitely agree that the full impact won't be seen until I finish my spell-nerf; most of the downgrade for tiers 1 and 2 will come from there. However, I seem to have this crippling addiction to class abilities; their fun, and flavorful, and ffffff-powerful, and so I tend to glob on alot of them. My goal is to make it so that a class is not entirely dependent upon spells, because they are getting a pretty major overall.

    You can follow the link in my extended sig to see how the entire rule set is layed out, but there's a few major things I can summarize easily.
    1. Spells are no longer guaranteed succesful. Every spell, EVERY SINGLE TIME IT'S CAST, requires a spellcraft check. And it is possible to automatically fail a spell if you roll a 1, and there ARE penalties for failure.
    2. Every single creature gets some level of spell resistance that scales with it's level. The spellcraft check system is set up so that the DC to overcome basic SR and the DC to cast non-targeting spells is approximately the same.
    3. Whole categories of mechanics will be tweaked. For example, summoning spells draw on the caster's power, making casting OTHER spells while you have summoned creatures in play more difficult.
    4. Individual spells are being modified on a case-by-case basis: material can no longer be removed from the miniplanes created by genesis; it's more difficult to target creatures other than yourself while timestopped (and it consumes XP); bestow curse is not permenant all by itself; permanency actually sucks up spell slots to keep it running; etc, etc, etc.


    If you're interested, go read the full thing; with some exceptions most of the rewritten spells so far are lower level, but I think it will give you a pretty good idea of what to expect.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2012-01-26 at 07:46 PM.
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    Default Re: Clerics, Now in Three Flavors!

    I understood it was just domain spells. It's still 9th level domain spells. 2 spells known for top level spells is only a little less than a sorcerer gets anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    I understood it was just domain spells. It's still 9th level domain spells. 2 spells known for top level spells is only a little less than a sorcerer gets anyway.
    Ok then. I agree with you that this, alone, probably doesn't change very much. But if you want, pick any 2 top level domain spells, and I'll make them the next spells I modify for my magic fix. Then you can see and rate the sort of nerfs things are getting.

    Also, like I said way back at the beggining, my main goal is to bring the core classes closer together. I don't have a specific tier in mind for anything, it's all just "about here". And of course, I might miss sometimes; I certainly appreciate the feedback.



    Edit: I just did implosion anyhow, cause I was thinking about it, feel free to pick anything else.

    Implosion
    Evocation
    Level: Clr 9, Destruction 9
    Components: V, S
    Casting Time: 1 full round action
    Range: Short
    Target: One corporeal creature
    Duration: Instantaneous
    Spellcraft: Target Resistance
    You create a destructive resonance in a corporeal creature’s body. This deals 10d10 unresistable damage, and has a chance to break the creature's bones.
    A fortitude save (DC=10+your ECL) negates the bone-breaking effect of the spell.

    Creatures with 10 or more hit dice more than you or without bones (plants, oozes, etc) are immune to the bone breaking effect.
    For creatures with 5-9 HD more than you, you choose to break either an arm or a leg when you cast the spell.
    For creatures with 0-4 HD more than you, choose any 2 limbs.
    For creatures with 1-4 HD less than you, choose any 2 limbs or 1 limb and their torso.
    For creatures with 5-9 HD less than you, choose any 3 limbs, or 1 limb and torso or skull.
    Creatures with 10 or more HD less than you break all four limbs, and either their torso, spine, or skull.

    Broken bones have the following effect:
    • Broken arm- cannot hold any object weighing more than 5 lbs. in that hand, and cannot use a weapon or shield with that hand. Get a -5 penalty on any skill check that requires 2 hands. If both arms are broken, take a -15 penalty on skill checks requiring both arms.
    • Broken leg- cannot run or charge, and cannot move faster than 15 ft. per round. Get a -5 penalty on any skill check that requires you to be standing or use your legs. If both legs are broken, you cannot stand upright though you may crawl at 5 ft./ round; take a -15 penalty on skill checks requiring you to use your legs.
    • Torso (ribs, collarbone, and/or shoulders)- cannot run, charge, or move faster than 20 ft. per round. You take a -5 penalty on attack rolls, spellcraft checks, and any skill check that requires you to move your limbs. You take an additional -5 penalty on any skill check that would be subject to an armor check penalty.
    • Skull (severe concussion & broken jaw)- You get a -5 penalty to any skill check that uses the Intellect or Wisdom modifiers, and the diplomacy check. You take a -10 penalty on spellcraft checks. A pounding headache deals you 1 nonlethal damage every 5 minutes.
    • Spine- you cannot fight, stand, cast spells (except for a spell that is both stilled and silenced) or make any skill checks except for Appraise, Knowledge, Listen, Sense Motive, and Spot. You cannot walk, though you can crawl at 5 ft./round; doing so deals you 1 damage for every foot you crawl.


    Incorporeal or gaseous creatures and any creature with a body composed of material of hardness 20 or more are completely immune to implosion.

    Critical Success
    The spell deals and extra 2d10 damage, and your target gets a limb broken, even if they make the fortitude save.

    Critical Failure
    You are dealt 2d10 unresistable damage, and the fingers of one hand get broken giving you a -10 penalty on spellcraft checks and any skill check requiring both hands.

    *healing broken bones*
    Regenerate heals broken bones completely.
    Otherwise, you need to set the bones, then heal them. Setting a broken limb (or fingers) requires a heal check of 20; your torso or skull require a heal check or 25, and your spine requires a check of 30. Incorrectly setting a bone can leave your character permenantly crippled.
    1 out of every 4 points of healing you recieve from resting, a potion, or a spell goes towards mending your bones rather than restoring HP. It requires 20 points to heal your fingers, 25 points to heal a limb, 30 points to heal your skull, and 50 points to heal either your torso or your spine.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2012-01-26 at 11:19 PM.
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    Default Re: Clerics, Now in Three Flavors!

    Y'know, you could simplify Bahamut's special entry by making it "must be of the dragonblood subtype". This also lets the standard races in if they burn the feat to get the subtype (the feat is in Dragon Magic, I think). I'm just pointing it out because Bahamut is a popular choice at my table.

    But then, so are the deities from BoED. Maybe my table is just strange.

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    Default Re: Clerics, Now in Three Flavors!

    It's a long post, so if I don't comment on something, I think it's fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    Hit Points per level
    4+1d4
    This is ... unusual. I remember this methodology from Iron Heroes, and it's not a bad idea. I assume it's universal to your homebrew fixes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    Domains and Class Skills
    A cleric who chooses the Animal or Plant domain adds Knowledge (nature) (Int) to the cleric class skills listed above. A cleric who chooses the Knowledge domain adds all Knowledge (Int) skills to the list. A cleric who chooses the Travel domain adds Survival (Wis) to the list. A cleric who chooses the Trickery domain adds Bluff (Cha), Disguise (Cha), and Hide (Dex) to the list.
    Animal Domain should grant Handle Animal. Travel should probably add Knowledge (geography) and Knowledge (local). Trickery really should get you Move Silently to go with Hide, it's a travesty that it didn't with the original.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    Aura (Ex)
    A cleric has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to his deity’s alignment (see the detect evil spell for details). The aura always matches that of the diety, even if the cleric’s alignment is slightly different.
    Text should be changed to match the fact that you expect all clerics to be the same alignment as their deity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    Like other spellcasters, a cleric can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intellect score.
    Emphasis mine. Should read Intelligence.

    Also, the spells section never says which ability score is used to determine spellcasting DC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    A lawful cleric of a Lawful-neutral deity channels axiomatic energy and can choose to deal damage to elementals and chaotic creatures or to heal constructs and lawful creatures. A chaotic cleric of a chaotic-neutral deity channels anarchic energy and can choose to deal damage to constructs and lawful creatures or to heal elementals and chaotic creatures. When channeling energy in this manner, lawful or chaotic creatures that are not elementals or constructs are healed or dealt damage for only half of the normal amount.
    I don't like this. It's party-unfriendly (at least with negative energy it also clearly damages most enemies, in this case you have to pray for the right alignment), and the positive energy/negative energy dichotomy is fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    True-neutral clerics of true-neutral deities channel sublime energy, which heals TN creatures for the full amount and NG, LN, CN, and NE creatures for half, or damages LG, CG, LE, and CE creatures and damages NG, LN, CN, and NE creatures for half the amount.
    I like this even less. The idea that True Neutrals are opposed to extreme alignments has always struck me as silly, since the whole point is that they're neutral. Why would a cleric of Boccob's channeled energy damage to a paladin? How does that add up?

    Plus, again, it's party-unfriendly and the positive/negative energy dichotomy is fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    Prayers of the Faithful (Su)
    As a swift action, you may offer up a prayer to your diety. Each ally within range (25 ft.+5 ft/2 levels) who is the same alignment as you on at least 1 axis (good/evil or chaos/law) may join you in prayer as an immediate action.
    Each person praying grants a +1 enhancement bonus that increases AC and SR to each other player who shares an alignment with the cleric.
    This effect lasts for 1 minute per use.

    Example: A party of 4 consists of a neutral good cleric, a lawful good paladin, a chaotic good warrior, and a chaotic Nuetral rogue. The cleric offers up a prayer to his diety, granting a +1 bonus to the paladin and the warrior, but not the rogue. The paladin and warrior both join him, granting a +1 bonus to each other and to the cleric. Each one of the three gets a +2 enhancement bonus. The rogue gets nothing because he does not share any alignments with the cleric.
    Alternatively, suppose the warrior, for whatever reason, cannot join them in prayer. The warrior would get a +2 bonus (+1 each from the paladin and the cleric) but the cleric and paladin would get only +1 each (from each other). The rogue still gets nothing.
    This is an interesting mechanic. I'd say that your language needs cleaning up, and I'm not entirely clear what the bonuses apply to (I think just AC and SR?).

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    Fighter Bonus Feats
    Clerics often involve themselves in direct conflicts over their faith, or to defend the deities worshippers. Some clerics have access to fighter bonus feats, just as a fighter would. They may select any fighter bonus feat for which they meat the prerequisites.

    Bonus Metamagic Feats
    Clerics are spellcasters, some more than others, and metamagic can aid them in displaying the awesome power of their diety. A cleric may select any metamagic feat, including the Divine Metamagic feat.
    I'd drop the special allowance for Divine Metamagic. Let people spend a real feat on it, they're getting plenty of bonuses already.

    If you really want players to take it as a bonus feat, just allow them to take Divine feats with either of the two bonus feat lists (which would actually make perfect sense).

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    Bonus Domains
    Some clerics eventually earn mastery over a wider variety of their deities powers. He chooses one additional domain that their deity posses, and immediately gains that domains granted power. You may also prepare spells from that domain for your domain spell slots.
    Just to be clear, this is significantly more powerful than getting bonus feats. Also: inconsistent pronoun use. Best to clean that up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    Divine Combat
    Once per day per 6 cleric levels (3 at 20th level) you may choose to have your attack rolls automatically succeed (as if you had rolled a 20) or your opponents attack roll will automatically miss (as if they had rolled a 1). You must declare you are using this ability before the rolls are made. You do not threaten a critical when using this ability.
    Unless you're actually trying to accommodate for Epic (which you shouldn't be doing outside of the Epic Progression), just say it's 3/day. And you need to specify the action type involved, if any.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    Divine Success
    Once per day per 4 cleric levels (5 at 20th level) you may choose to take 20 on any skill or ability check, even if rushed or threatened. You must declare you are using this ability before making any roll. You may place a blessing on any friendly party member within 50 ft. that grants them 1 use of your Divine Success ability, which applies to the next ability or skill check they make. It lasts a maximum of 1 minute before dispersing.
    Again, just say 5/day, specify action type if any. You should specifically note taking 20 in this circumstance does not increase the time of the skill check. And you need to specify what type of action placing a blessing on your ally is for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    Divine Spellcasting
    Once per day per 8 cleric levels (2 at 20th level) you may choose to have your spellcraft roll automatically succeed (as if you had rolled a 20). You must declare you are using this ability before the rolls are made. You do not achieve a critical success when using this ability.
    2/day. Action type. Definitely not worth taking all 20 levels for.

    So, in the final analysis: the concept is good and done fairly well, but the implementation needs some cleanup. You've done a good job of depowering the cleric while not robbing it of interesting play for the Guardian and Sentinel, which are probably Tier 2-3. The Spiritualist is still Tier 1, maybe high Tier 2. Between bonus domains and better spellcasting, it's got a notable leg up on its counterparts and has actually gained in versatility.

    As to the classes themselves being worth taking for all 20 levels: maybe. The Guardian's capstone isn't amazing, but it's not bad either, and it has the best chassis. I can't see myself taking more than 14 levels of Sentinel, or 16 levels of Spiritualist (although probably not less than 14 in that case — extra domains are awesome).

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    I'm assuming those are Jedi ranks, right?
    They're classes from the SWRPG and the KotoR games. I remain amused by the parallel.
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    Default Re: Clerics, Now in Three Flavors!

    Quote Originally Posted by gkathellar View Post
    This is ... unusual. I remember this methodology from Iron Heroes, and it's not a bad idea. I assume it's universal to your homebrew fixes?
    Yes; I had a whole 'nother thread where I complained how bad HP rolls hurt melee players but not casters. We discussed rerolling options, minimum scores, and even flat HP increases, but this was the one I liked best.

    Animal Domain should grant Handle Animal. Travel should probably add Knowledge (geography) and Knowledge (local). Trickery really should get you Move Silently to go with Hide, it's a travesty that it didn't with the original.
    I had copied those verbatim from the standard text. Yours do work better. Unless theres a shadow/stealth type domain I'm unaware of yet, in which case Hide and Move Silently might swap to that.
    Edit: I changed my mind; Trickery gets Sleight of Hand instead. If you're playing with pathfinder rules, feel free to add Hide and Move Silently to the thievery sub-domain.

    Text should be changed to match the fact that you expect all clerics to be the same alignment as their deity.
    They're not really, though; every diety has exceptions to the rule. I put that in place so I could pick what variants certain dieties allowed. The "one step" rule would let you end up with things like a horrificly chaotic-evil diety able to have chaotic neutral clerics, which just didn't feel right to me.


    Emphasis mine. Should read Intelligence.

    Also, the spells section never says which ability score is used to determine spellcasting DC.
    My intent was that this be used with my magic fix, which pretty much does away with casting-class specific ability scores. Basically, all casters get a bonus to their spellcraft check (the new attack/skill check roll for spells) from their wisdom score; so if you're not using my magic fix, just assume it's wisdom.


    I don't like this. It's party-unfriendly (at least with negative energy it also clearly damages most enemies, in this case you have to pray for the right alignment), and the positive energy/negative energy dichotomy is fine.

    I like this even less. The idea that True Neutrals are opposed to extreme alignments has always struck me as silly, since the whole point is that they're neutral. Why would a cleric of Boccob's channeled energy damage to a paladin? How does that add up?

    Plus, again, it's party-unfriendly and the positive/negative energy dichotomy is fine.
    I wanted something different for non-good/evil clerics that allowed them to emphasize their lawful/chaotic aspect; this is what I came up with. The vast majority of clerics will still just use positive/negative energy but if you go through all the trouble of doubling up on law or chaos (both your dieties alignment and your own) then you get something special out of it. You just need to be careful how you use it if you've gotten yourself mixed up with a whole pile opposing teamates. You might also say this encourages people to not play horribly conflicting parties; your mileage may vary on wether or not that's a good thing, but again, you have plenty of options for just playing a positive/negative energy cleric.

    With regards to True Neutral, whole forums have been lost to the alignment debate so let's not rehash that here, but my thoughts on TN are this: it's about balance, and actively persuing balance, if it comes to that. Hence the reason they oppose going to extremes.
    For people who are more apathetic to alignment, I would introduce the "unalligned" alignment from 4E. TN becomes the extrovert version of neutral (cares about other people) and unalligned is the introvert version (self-centered or not interested in what others do).

    This is an interesting mechanic. I'd say that your language needs cleaning up, and I'm not entirely clear what the bonuses apply to (I think just AC and SR?).
    Yes; I figured that because there are so many offensive bonuses available, it wouldn't hurt to make one that relied on teamwork to be defensive.
    If the language is wonky, it's because I knew of no other similar mechanic to base my write-up on. I'll take another look at it.

    I'd drop the special allowance for Divine Metamagic. Let people spend a real feat on it, they're getting plenty of bonuses already.
    If you really want players to take it as a bonus feat, just allow them to take Divine feats with either of the two bonus feat lists (which would actually make perfect sense).
    Is there a good list of all the divine feats somewhere? I'm tempted to go with your suggestion, but I just want to check them out first. I'm not nearly as familiar with splatbooks as I am with core.

    Just to be clear, this is significantly more powerful than getting bonus feats. Also: inconsistent pronoun use. Best to clean that up.
    To powerful? I could cut it down to just one bonus domain; but then I'll have a dead level that needs filling in.
    Alternatively, I can write it so you don't get the domain power.

    Unless you're actually trying to accommodate for Epic (which you shouldn't be doing outside of the Epic Progression), just say it's 3/day. And you need to specify the action type involved, if any.

    Again, just say 5/day, specify action type if any. You should specifically note taking 20 in this circumstance does not increase the time of the skill check. And you need to specify what type of action placing a blessing on your ally is for.

    2/day. Action type. Definitely not worth taking all 20 levels for.
    I was trying to allow for progression past 20; I can alter it for the sake of simplicity. If they're not powerful enough, I can increase the number of uses, but I still want clerics to make the occasional roll while keeping in mind some players preference for the "15-minute adventuring day".
    Most of these where intended to be immediate or at will since I want the player to declare using them before making the appropriate check; I may make the blessing another person for the skill check a swift action.

    So, in the final analysis: the concept is good and done fairly well, but the implementation needs some cleanup. You've done a good job of depowering the cleric while not robbing it of interesting play for the Guardian and Sentinel, which are probably Tier 2-3. The Spiritualist is still Tier 1, maybe high Tier 2. Between bonus domains and better spellcasting, it's got a notable leg up on its counterparts and has actually gained in versatility.

    As to the classes themselves being worth taking for all 20 levels: maybe. The Guardian's capstone isn't amazing, but it's not bad either, and it has the best chassis. I can't see myself taking more than 14 levels of Sentinel, or 16 levels of Spiritualist (although probably not less than 14 in that case — extra domains are awesome).
    Thank you for all your time and assistance; I'm very grateful.
    I figured the guardian and sentinel have access to both melee abilities AND magic, but the spiritualist is pretty much rubbish at combat; drop an anti-magic field on him and he's done.
    For the overall balance, I'm aiming at 20 levels in any class being viable but not overpowering; I'm not really thinking optimization here. For a class that gets plenty of power and versatility from all it's levels, I don't think the capstone needs to be as awe-inspiring. Frankly I enjoy multi-classing and I wish there was a way to do it better for casters (not that they really need the help, but still).
    My magic fix should reduce the desparity somewhat between primary casters and everyone else. That's the goal at least, I admit it's possible that I could ultimately miss the mark.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2013-06-12 at 02:57 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
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