Ravnica: City of Guilds [Under Construction!] [Base Classes; D&D 3.5]

[Ziegander]

I decided to go with Gruul Wildspeaker, it's a primal leader that combines bloodthirsty attacks with marshal auras and druid spells.

EDIT: Now Azorius (needs a better name too), Boros, Dimir, Golgari, Gruul, Izzet, Orzhov, and Rakdos are up! Take a look and offer some criticism ladies and gentlemen! The Golgari and the Izzet aren't quite finished and especially could use some critics' love.

EDIT: Only Selesnya and Simic left to go!

EDIT: Only Simic left to go! Whoo-hoo!

[Big Fau]

I decided to go with Gruul Wildspeaker, it's a primal leader that combines bloodthirsty attacks with marshal auras and druid spells.

Don't suppose he had something to do with that, did he?

[boomwolf]

Also, you're doing them in the wrong order. The correct order is:
Simic -> Izzet -> Dimir -> Golgari -> Boros -> Selsenya -> Azorius -> Orzhov -> Rakdos -> Gruul. This is the scientifically established correct priority order for the guilds, and has nothing whatsoever to do with my personal preferences - in fact, you doing it the categorically wrong way is nothing less than a mortal sin and an insult to every thinking, logical person in the world.

Blasphemy! the great church of the Orzhov is the greatest of all guilds!

And speaking of the Orzhov, while their class IS pretty nice, I think you missed the flavor of the Orzhov there...

While they DO have an "life, death, and the spiritual world" flavor, they are NOT skirmishers, they do not zoom across the city to take down their opponent swifts, they are the slow-and-steady guys, slowly devouring the enemy's resources while bolstering their own. I think you need to make a crowd-control class for them, not a roamer...

[Ziegander]

Don't suppose he had something to do with that, did he?

Actually, I didn't think of him at all. It was an odd road getting to the final design of the Gruul Wildspeaker, but I'm happy with the results.

And speaking of the Orzhov, while their class IS pretty nice, I think you missed the flavor of the Orzhov there...

While they DO have an "life, death, and the spiritual world" flavor, they are NOT skirmishers, they do not zoom across the city to take down their opponent swifts, they are the slow-and-steady guys, slowly devouring the enemy's resources while bolstering their own. I think you need to make a crowd-control class for them, not a roamer...

I'm not so sure I missed the flavor. Orzhov is a crime syndicate, pretty thoroughly. They have fake priests and money-changers, sure, and they do use politics to their advantage whenever possible, but they are a mafia organization through and through. While the organization itself has a more slow-and-steady ultimate goal, the syndicate has tons of thieves and assassins on its payroll.

[Bhu]

Possible thought for abilities for the Gravestone class at level 17 or the capstone:

Maybe give them the rest of the immunities for the plat and undead types?

[jiriku]

General Overview:

The classes are all very compellingly designed and flavorful. I was immediately interested in playing several of them, such as the Legionnaire, Secretkeeper, and Graveborne. Even the ones that don't appeal to me personally would be very enticing to other players I know who prefer different archetypes. Well done.

The power range is pretty broad. The Graveborne and Hellraiser, for example, are basic Tier 4 classes, while the Mathmagician and Convoker are strong Tier 2 representatives. I personally would balance my classes a little more tightly together if I was going to build a whole new universe of classes as you're doing here.

The classes do a great job of exploiting existing material and power systems. I'd expect no less from you, given your earlier work, but it's nice to see homebrew that demonstrates mastery, comfort, and affection with/for the rules.

The classes are VERY feature-heavy, to the point of being intimidating to novice and casual gamers. The biggest offenders are the Tier-3-type classes that blend the signature features of 3 or more source classes. While the resultant classes are well-balanced, I'm concerned that you're setting the bar quite high with the minimum level of savvy and time required to play the classes.

The complexity of the classes could also make life hard the DM. Any DM who uses your material must coach/mentor 4+ players on playing classes that none of them are familiar with, while also managing groups of NPCs with levels in these same classes. That's a very demanding job for the DM, in addition to the task of creating and running adventures.

Specific Looks:

Azorius Arbiter

• The exact effect of arbitration (command) is nebulous. I'm not certain how I'm supposed to adjudicate requirements to "obey the law" as a DM.
• Does Delay violence offer a save? If so, how is it calculated?

Boros Legionnaire

• The decision to use the paladin/ranger spell table, rather than a more generous table like bard or duskblade, leaves the Legionnaire hurting for spell slots and save DCs. The extra Charisma doesn't really help.
• I'd suggest changing the perfection bonuses gained at 20th level to inherent bonuses, to minimize the potential for stacking of permanent bonuses.

Dimir Secretkeeper

• This one is considerably weaker than most of the others, and almost completely ineffective against mindless undead. I'd recommend replacing sneak attack with a source of bonus damage that isn't so easily negated.
• This needs, IMO, a full sneak attack progression and some form of buffed skill usage at higher levels - perhaps a scaling competence bonus to the athletic skills or a pool of spin points or free rerolls.
• Transmute Self is a can of worms. But I suppose you knew that.

Golgari Graveborne

• Channel Life and Death scales very poorly with level. I'd recommend scaling the damage dice more quickly.
• Putrefy is a little rocky in execution. Ignoring a type-based immunity feels like a foul ball; if you want a debuff that affects undead, I'd prefer you just use a debuff that affects undead. This hits you again with the advancements to the ability, most of which are irrelevant to undead. Auto-dispelling all magical effects with a touch attack is a highly breakable ability that begs for team-based exploits. Auto-animating the slain is also very breakable (technically, the graveborne can maintain an animated creature such as, say, an efreet, indefinitely by repeatedly killing it and reanimating it), and is poorly supported mechanically (what are the stats of the animated creature?).
• Accelerated Healing, Life from the Loam, and Regenerative Healing are throwaway features, too minor to have significant impact on the game. They should be either improved or discarded.
• Overall, this class is too linear, with too many of its features devotes to simple incremental improvements to its ability to inflict and resist damage. It needs more versatile options. I'd suggest one or more of the following:

1. Woodland stride or flawless stride
2. Camouflage
3. 4 or 6 skill points per level with the addition of Balance, Hide, Knowledge (geography), Move Silently and Swim, the subtraction of Handle Animal.
4. Extension of the husk to include enchantable claws.
5. A bogun or homunculus pet(s).
6. Access to a limited selection of druid spells involving plant manipulation and acceleration of decay.
7. Access to a limited selection of sorcerer/wizard spells involving emulating or influencing the undead.

[Dracon.AO]

I love the ravinica block, but isn't this Boris legionnaire a slighty overpowered duskblade?

[Ziegander]

General Overview:The classes are all very compellingly designed and flavorful. I was immediately interested in playing several of them, such as the Legionnaire, Secretkeeper, and Graveborne. Even the ones that don't appeal to me personally would be very enticing to other players I know who prefer different archetypes. Well done.

Well, if nothing else I still know how to make a class look pretty.

The power range is pretty broad. The Graveborne and Hellraiser, for example, are basic Tier 4 classes, while the Mathmagician and Convoker are strong Tier 2 representatives. I personally would balance my classes a little more tightly together if I was going to build a whole new universe of classes as you're doing here.

Yeah, I think for the first drafts I was more concerned with capturing the flavor of the various guilds and distilling that into D&D mechanics, so it doesn't surprise me that some of the classes are stronger than others. I think I want to keep things at around a low Tier 3 level, but that's hard to do while not only maintaining the flavor of the guilds and also making sure PCs have the proper tools to survive playing D&D.

The classes are VERY feature-heavy, to the point of being intimidating to novice and casual gamers. The biggest offenders are the Tier-3-type classes that blend the signature features of 3 or more source classes. While the resultant classes are well-balanced, I'm concerned that you're setting the bar quite high with the minimum level of savvy and time required to play the classes.

It's true, I tend to throw together multiple sub-systems at once with a devil-may-care attitude. I still try to keep the classes themselves simple, if you're familiar with the subsystems anyway, but I see what you mean.

Azorius Arbiter

• The exact effect of arbitration (command) is nebulous. I'm not certain how I'm supposed to adjudicate requirements to "obey the law" as a DM.
• Does Delay violence offer a save? If so, how is it calculated?

Arbitration (Command) works just like the Command spell and says so in the text. Maybe if I link to the Command spell it will become clearer. Delay Violence is the same way, working just like the Sanctuary spell. I'll make sure to add into the text that they both allow a Will save to negate.

Boros Legionnaire

• The decision to use the paladin/ranger spell table, rather than a more generous table like bard or duskblade, leaves the Legionnaire hurting for spell slots and save DCs. The extra Charisma doesn't really help.
• I'd suggest changing the perfection bonuses gained at 20th level to inherent bonuses, to minimize the potential for stacking of permanent bonuses.

I wasn't sure whether or not I wanted to go to 5th level spells or not, as I felt that they already had enough spells per day to be honest. If I did go to 5th level spells I'd need to reconfigure his spell list, switching some spells around in level, etc, etc, but it's still a possibility. Do note that the save DCs are not based on spell level, but rather are all 10 + 1/2 Legionnaire level + Cha modifier.

Dimir Secretkeeper

• This one is considerably weaker than most of the others, and almost completely ineffective against mindless undead. I'd recommend replacing sneak attack with a source of bonus damage that isn't so easily negated.
• This needs, IMO, a full sneak attack progression and some form of buffed skill usage at higher levels - perhaps a scaling competence bonus to the athletic skills or a pool of spin points or free rerolls.
• Transmute Self is a can of worms. But I suppose you knew that.

I am very surprised you think this is the weakest class. I was concerned that this was one of the more powerful ones. It's just as ineffective against mindless Undead as a Rogue is, actually probably less so, and yet it has LOTS of other options against other foes. Rogue is usually posterized as one of the better balanced classes in the game, and so while I knew I wanted this class to finish slightly stronger than a Rogue I didn't want to go much higher than that.

Golgari Graveborne

Now, we come to the one that I'm the least satisfied with.

[LIST][*]Channel Life and Death scales very poorly with level. I'd recommend scaling the damage dice more quickly.

And yet, as a self-heal mechanic it's pretty incredible. I wanted a way to channel death through his melee attacks, but I figured a feat could be used for that.

[*]Putrefy is a little rocky in execution. Ignoring a type-based immunity feels like a foul ball; if you want a debuff that affects undead, I'd prefer you just use a debuff that affects undead.

It was supposed to be following the Golgari flavor that it debuffs Undead with debuffs that don't normally affect Undead. Specifically, by injecting Undead with the power of life and debuffing them with effects that work normally on living creatures. Sort of a stretch, but that's my explanation.

Auto-dispelling all magical effects with a touch attack is a highly breakable ability that begs for team-based exploits.

In what ways?

A) Auto-animating the slain is also very breakable (technically, the graveborne can maintain an animated creature such as, say, an efreet, indefinitely by repeatedly killing it and reanimating it), and B) is poorly supported mechanically (what are the stats of the animated creature?).

A) Good point. I'll have to edit for that.

B) The stats of the animated creature are exactly the same as the stats it had in life.

[*]Accelerated Healing, Life from the Loam, and Regenerative Healing are throwaway features, too minor to have significant impact on the game. They should be either improved or discarded.

Okay, I see what you mean. At first I disagreed, but I ran some numbers and took a second look at them, and, yeah, there are more flavor-features than anything else. Which I think is okay for Life from the Loam (which originally was slated for 5th level but I'm not sure, it's a potentially very powerful effect and I don't know if 5th level is right for it), but if I put in too many flavor-features the Graveborne needs a special sub-system to call its own.

[*]Overall, this class is too linear, with too many of its features devotes to simple incremental improvements to its ability to inflict and resist damage. It needs more versatile options. I'd suggest one or more of the following:

Trust me, I agree with you. I was concerned that the class was too linear immediately after I designed. Too simple. Before I began working on it I wanted it to have a unique sub-system, like Azorius uses Incarnum, Izzet uses Weird Science, and Rakdos uses Invocations. But, once I had the other classes mapped out there didn't seem to be anything left to give to poor Golgari, so I was sure what to do.

[LIST=1][*]Woodland stride or flawless stride[*]Camouflage[*]4 or 6 skill points per level with the addition of Balance, Hide, Knowledge (geography), Move Silently and Swim, the subtraction of Handle Animal.

Unfortunately, aside from, perhaps, Hide and Move Silently, none of this seems to fit the Golgari, in my opinion. I'm not an expert authority on Ravnica, though, so maybe some other posters will have something to say.

[*]Extension of the husk to include enchantable claws.

I could see this.

[*]A bogun or homunculus pet(s).

This might also be interesting, but I'm not sure how to implement it or if it really fits the Golgari.

[*]Access to a limited selection of druid spells involving plant manipulation and acceleration of decay.[*]Access to a limited selection of sorcerer/wizard spells involving emulating or influencing the undead.

Again, I'd like to avoid simply making this a spellcaster, but access to plant manipulation/acceleration/decay as well as controlling undead would be marvelous (more than Turn Plants/Undead).

Finally, thank you for giving me a thorough critique, my friend. If you ever need a critique of a class or classes, you let me know!

[Ziegander]

I love the ravinica block, but isn't this Boris legionnaire a slighty overpowered duskblade?

I don't think so. Why do you say that?

EDIT: If you just mean that it's slightly more powerful than a Duskblade, then, eh, that's really a toss up. A Duskblade is almost guaranteed to deal a LOT more damage than the Boros Legionnaire, but the legionnaire can do more things for the party than simply deal damage.

[TravelLog]

You might try a twist on shadow casting for the Golgari.

Perhaps?

[jiriku]

It's true, I tend to throw together multiple sub-systems at once with a devil-may-care attitude. I still try to keep the classes themselves simple, if you're familiar with the subsystems anyway, but I see what you mean.

I actually rather like what you've done. Some of it is quite innovative. The wildspeaker, for example, blends rage, a skirmish-variant, marshall auras, minor ranger/druidic spellcasting, and spell-channeling on a martial platform in a way that really isn't possible with the existing rules, and the result is an intriguing leader/battler/wilderness combo that looks very fun to play.

Do note that the save DCs are not based on spell level, but rather are all 10 + 1/2 Legionnaire level + Cha modifier.

Nice. I hadn't noticed that, but now that I see it I think it's a good move.

I am very surprised you think this is the weakest class. I was concerned that this was one of the more powerful ones. It's just as ineffective against mindless Undead as a Rogue is, actually probably less so, and yet it has LOTS of other options against other foes. Rogue is usually posterized as one of the better balanced classes in the game, and so while I knew I wanted this class to finish slightly stronger than a Rogue I didn't want to go much higher than that.

Its chief weaknesses are two: (1) it loses a tremendous degree of effectiveness against straightforward, unsubtle opponents who are mindless and/or immune to precision damage, and (2) its high-level abilities are mostly situational and modest in scope.

It was supposed to be following the Golgari flavor that it debuffs Undead with debuffs that don't normally affect Undead. Specifically, by injecting Undead with the power of life and debuffing them with effects that work normally on living creatures. Sort of a stretch, but that's my explanation.

What if it Channel Life and Death had a decaying form that dealt negative energy damage and blinded as the body decayed, and a growth form that invoked positive energy and and entangled as the body erupted with vinelike growths?

B) The stats of the animated creature are exactly the same as the stats it had in life.

Con score? Biological attack modes like poison? Organic processes like fast healing and regeneration? Those things can work for a plant/undead hybrid, but not being familiar with the background material, I didn't assume them.

[Ziegander]

What if it Channel Life and Death had a decaying form that dealt negative energy damage and blinded as the body decayed, and a growth form that invoked positive energy and and entangled as the body erupted with vinelike growths?

These are good ideas.

Con score? Biological attack modes like poison? Organic processes like fast healing and regeneration? Those things can work for a plant/undead hybrid, but not being familiar with the background material, I didn't assume them.

Aside from having a Con score, yes, it keeps all of that sort of stuff. Fast Healing and Regeneration aren't necessarily organic processes. There are published Undead with Fast Healing/Regeneration.

I'm scrapping the Simic draft I've got so far, because it's just not at all what I wanted. I have to go back to the drawing board on it completely. Anyone have any ideas to share for what they'd like to see the Simic class do?

I may even go back to the drawing board with the Golgari class too. I'm just not happy with what I've got. I think the only thing I want to keep is the Biomantic Husk. Ideas for it would be good too.

[Nero24200]

*Favourited*

This thread is relevent to my interests.

[Person_Man]

RE: General

Do you have a general design concept and/or Tier that you're aiming for? I could offer up a bunch of critiques, but it's not very helpful for me to say "this is too strong" or "this is too weak" or "this doesn't make much sense" unless I know what you're going for?


RE: Azorius Arbiter

• Duel attribute requirements is generally a poor design choice. It's generally considered a bad thing that the Incarnate is Wis/Con based (and not just Con, like the Totemist), and I think it's even worse that the Arbiter is Wis/Cha based.
• I think it's a poor idea to rename things as Statutes, Æther, and Æther Binds in the crunch of the class. Incarnum is already one of the most confusing rule sets out there, and this class just muddles it further. For example, how does a Totemist 2/Azorius Arbiter 2 work? How do Incarnum spells (which specifically target essentia or create chakra binds) effect the Azorius Arbiter? Can he benefit from the Extra Essentia feat? I suggest you write up some fluff sections, and include the renaming conventions there.
• Skill based Save DC's are very difficult to balance, because Skills are so easy to buff. So I would drop that bit of crunch.
• His soulmeld and chakra bind selection is fairly limited, and you cut out many of the Incarnate's strongest options. And many of his class abilities seem to have no interaction with his Meldshaping abilities. So you may wish to make some of his class abilities into custom soulmelds and chakra binds which only he has access to.
• I do not understand how Demand Compliance functions. Perhaps you could reword it to be less confusing.
• The lack of a Expanded Essentia Capacity is a big nerf for a Meldshaping class.

RE: The Orzhov Ghostwayman

• Again, MAD issues.
• I'm confused by the design choice of having Skirmish + Sudden Strike + soulmelds. What is your intended play style for this class (ie, what do you intend for him to do each round, and how?)
• Again, the lack of a Expanded Essentia Capacity is a big nerf for a Meldshaping class.

[Jodah]

Firstly, I want to thank you for working on this. It looks like you have put a lot of time and energy into this. Me and another group of guys were working on making a Ravnica campaign a few years back, but were met with disappointing results. You have gone quite the other way with stupendous results.

Secondly, I already want to play a mathmagician, a legionnaire, a wildspeaker, a hellraiser, and a ghostwayman. (And I just realized, I listed all the red guilds...) I usually bookmark homebrew stuff as a resource that I want to pull a little from. This time I am doing so because I want to adopt this full-scale.

Thirdly, and I am hoping the answer is yes, are you planning on making races, magic items, or anything else related to this? Ravnica has so much to offer on these fronts, I would love to see what you can do with it.

Oh, and one tiny critique: what reasoning put lifelink as a 1st level ability for the Convoker? At that level it doesn't do a lot of good (not enough hitpoints to go around for any character). I would think more mid level on it, maybe 5-8. But that is just my thoughts.

[Zarthrax]

Seeing as how I've become a bit of a Golgari fan due to running a black/green elf Commander deck and discovering the awesomeness therein, I'd like to suggest abilities to fill the blank spots on the Golgari Graveborne.


17- Necromantic Infusion- Any undead creature you reanimate via your Dredge ability keeps all of its previous abilities, as well as falling under your permanent control. The undead's hit dice are removed from your control pool. It is permanently affected with a Dominate Monster effect. If dispelled, it automatically renews the next round. You may only have a number of undead affected by this ability equal to 1 + your Constitution modfier. Any creatures in excess of this are freewilled as normal, but friendly towards you.


20- Web of Life and Death- While the Simic have the edge on adapting new and exciting abilities, the Golgari can recycle like noone's business. What others view as a thing to avoid, a Graveborne covets as a thing to acquire. Every 'undead' affected by Necromantic Infusion shares its Extraordinary and Supernatural abilities with you. You are treated as also having all of said abilities. Any spell like ability that creature possesses can be used at either the creature's use per day or 3/day, whichever is less.

For Example, if you Dredge a lich and apply Necromantic Infusion to it, you gain its fear aura, paralysis touch, and extra immunities. You do not gain access to its spells.

[Just to Browse]

You've done it again, Ziegander. I don't think I have yet to see a single class of yours that isn't absolutely fascinating.

[Tingel]

Destabilize - With a DC 15 Heal check made as a standard action you can cause a stable creature below 0 hit points to begin Dying again.

How can this possibly require a skill check from anyone? Destabilizing a below-0 target should be a no-brainer, not requiring any special technique, finesse or knowledge. A monkey could do it. An ill-meaning monkey, that is.

[boomwolf]

Forget why it requires a skill check, would we anyone BOTHER with using this ability even if it didn't? just stab the damn guy...

[Tulya]

Haha, that's actually funny. I didn't even notice that, or where it came from. Looking at the 'edited on' dates, I assume it was on the Rakdos Hellraiser.

As I recall, Rakdos guild members love suffering. Instead of having an ability just to make them resume dying (because stabbing is good for that, as the above poster noted), why not one to drink in the suffering? Maybe something like Agony Bond. Unstoppable HP loss to you and touched target equal to any amount up to your class level. Kill an opponent that way, replenish a rage use or something.

Edit: Also, if you don't mind, what card is the Izzet picture from? Seems familiar, but I can't place it.

[Tingel]

Haha, that's actually funny. I didn't even notice that, or where it came from. Looking at the 'edited on' dates, I assume it was on the Rakdos Hellraiser.

It is part of the [Under Construction] Simic Visionary, under the new uses for the Heal skill.

Some alternative ideas for Simic science (as alternative uses for the Heal skill):


Biopreservation
The Simic can preserve organic tissue, for example a heart or a severed hand, protecting it from natural putrefaction. This requires a jar of vinegar, a few drops of amphibian blood and a successful DC 15 Heal check.

Biostasis
The Simic's mastery over occult surgery can keep an organism alive that should normally die due its current situation, for example a dog whose heart has been removed or a party member who has been ripped in half by a rampaging Gruul monstrosity. The Simic cannot leave the patient or it dies. Biostasis requires a successful DC 15 Heal check per hour, and cannot keep anything alive for longer than [Simic Visionary levels] hours.
If the patient ends up being restored to normal life (for example through powerful divine magic), there is a 5% chance per hour in Biostasis that it will retain a permanent psychological impairment.

Extremity Recombination
With a successful DC 20 Heal check the Simic is able to recombine severed extremities with their original bodies, for example fingers, hands, or even whole legs, arms, tails, wings etc. The amputation may not have happened more than an hour ago, unless the appendage has been biopreserved (see above). If the extremity does not originally belong to the body (if for example the Simic is attaching a chicken wing to a human patient), the DC is increasing to 30.
Alien extremities attached this way have no functionality the recipient did not possess before - a dwarf with wings cannot fly for example.

Abortion
The Simic is killing unborn life. This requires a mixture of toad poison, vinegar and a few drops of the Simic's blood which the pregnant creature is offered (or forced) to drink. The abortion is automatically successful, but if the Simic fails a DC 15 Heal check the patient will remain permanently barren.

Brain Transplant
The Simic transplants a brain from one living creature with a developed brain into another, for example one human's brain into the head of another, or an elven brain into a cow's body. Only one brain will be transplanted, along with memories, int and wis scores, personality etc., and the other patient dies. If the Simic fails a DC 30 Heal check, both patients die.

Reanimation
The Simic sticks his hand as far down a patient's throat as he manages and tries (through a DC 15 Heal check) to restart the patient's heart beat and breathing, also healing small injuries of heart and lungs in the process.

Edit: Also, if you don't mind, what card is the Izzet picture from? Seems familiar, but I can't place it.

That is no card. It is the Izzet planeswalker Ral Zarek.

[Tulya]

Thanks. That would explain why it's simultaneously familiar as magic-related, and I can't place it as any card.

I really like the Legionnaire. Feels about tier 3, with the right amount of tricks and power for the average adventuring party. Also, despite lacking the absolute power of tier 1 classes... it feels inherently heroic. Superhero heroic. Like you could pair a Legionnaire with the woman on the Boros Guildmage card and have a crimefighting duo.

[Ziegander]

Oh, alright, alright, I guess I'll have to get back to this soon. Since there is so much new interest, I'll get right on to revising the existing material and designing Races of Ravnica, some feats, hell, I might even make prestige classes (okay, I hate doing that, so don't hold your breath, but, still, I've done it before and by god I just might do it again).

[TravelLog]

By the Nine Hells, do the PrCs! They would be amazing.

[TravelLog]

Hey Ziegander, any progress?