E6 Discussion Thread

[NeoSeraphi]

So I vaguely know about E6. It's a game where the levels stop going up after 6, but you keep getting feats which you can use to spend on other class features. The idea is, from what I've heard, that most Tier 3s and above start all their gamebreaking at higher levels, so ending it at 6 will help everyone enjoy it more (the warriors get their second attack, so they're still better than the 3/4s the 3/4s get their class feature and skill points, and the casters still have toys)

But what I wonder is, does it really feel like a game after you get to level 6? With no class features or levels, how do you advance? With your hit points capped, you never get more endurant, so you can't fight progressively tougher monsters, can you?

This is all coming from a guy who has no understanding or experience, so if what I'm saying is off-base, please don't be offended. I'm not trying to attack your system, I'm just curious.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

In most fantasy stories, powerful opponents like dragons and giants are often viewed as beyond the capability of even the bravest heroes to consistently defeat. Trolls and ogres even are no small task even for the most experienced champion. This is what E6 is all about, any given foe is still a threat in great enough numbers, and you never get strong enough to just wade through enormous opponents with ease.

Think of the Lord of the Rings, when they're besieged in Moria; any powerful wizard would have brushed aside countless goblins as though they were gnats, and a high level ranger and dwarf fighter could have cut down that cave troll in a few rounds (12-18 seconds), but it was a long and difficult fight. Epic battles like that can happen all the time, and do, when you play E6.

After you hit 6th level, you still gain feats, you still gain wealth and better magic items, and you can still gain in-character prestige and status. There's much to gain in feats alone for nearly any character, everyone likes shinier trinkets, and there's a big difference between having meaningful interaction with a setting because of your deeds, and having meaningful interaction with a setting because you could conquer it single-handed.

[SpaceBadger]

This may be the blind leading the blind, as I haven't actually =played= any E6 yet but am gearing up to play next campaign as E6.

For me, the attraction is that all of the "numbers" stuff (BAB, HP, saves, etc) don't go up above 6th level. My favorite sweet spot has always been levels 3 to 6, before the characters start getting so powerful that they don't have to be concerned with any normal dangers anymore. I like a gritty sword & sorcery game better than chock-fulla-magic-yawn-its-another-dragon-to-kill-today. Not to say that one is any better than the other, just a matter of taste. It is my hope that E6 can stretch out that sweet spot to keep the game interesting longer before the characters get too powerful.

[NeoSeraphi]

Your points are all very good, but like I said, if you're only gaining feats and gear, there's still a ceiling that you hit, where you can't really fight against creatures and expect to win anymore. After all, after a certain CR, spell resistance would become insurmountable for a CL 6 caster, and Damage Reduction becomes a bigger problem for a character with only +6 BAB.

I guess what I'm asking is, how long do you guys usually keep playing a game after you hit 6th level?

[Lonely Tylenol]

I think if I tried to convince my party to switch to E6, they'd gang up and kill me in an act of cooperation and coordination unlike any I'd expect to see occur at the table at any time.

Where can I find the rule set?

[Manateee]

Disregarding for a second the advancement built into E6 -

Why would you need character progression to have a game?

[NeoSeraphi]

Disregarding for a second the advancement built into E6 -

Why would you need character progression to have a game?

I just feel like if you can't progress, you wouldn't be able to face tougher enemies, and then there's not as much to look forward to. It's not an end-all problem, but it certainly seems like it wouldn't be as fun (to me).

[Wookie-ranger]

Why would you need character progression to have a game?

+1

Its a role playing game after all. at least that,s what it is officially. its not about who is the first to throw a fireball that can blast a continent or who is the first to become a god.
Its supposed to be fun, and for many the fun starts to subside after around level 8 or so.


Edit:

I just feel like if you can't progress, you wouldn't be able to face tougher enemies, and then there's not as much to look forward to. It's not an end-all problem, but it certainly seems like it wouldn't be as fun (to me).

not really. you still progress, just not as exponentially as you have. you still gain feats, some of which are special (and more powerful then normal)for E6. you also still adventure, gain money, get better items, obtain real estate.
the way you progress is more 'real' more natural. it is more like you would see in a movie or a read in a book. who wants to read about a hero that gets paid to kill the mighty red dragon in the caves of doom, on to of mount Armageddon; only to do so in less then a day, with barely breaking a sweat.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Your points are all very good, but like I said, if you're only gaining feats and gear, there's still a ceiling that you hit, where you can't really fight against creatures and expect to win anymore. After all, after a certain CR, spell resistance would become insurmountable for a CL 6 caster, and Damage Reduction becomes a bigger problem for a character with only +6 BAB.

I guess what I'm asking is, how long do you guys usually keep playing a game after you hit 6th level?

More powerful creatures than an E6 character can defeat only exist so that powerful PCs can kill them. If nobody in the setting is capable of defeating a given creature, then maybe that creature just shouldn't be present in the game setting.

There can always be more challenges, more adventures, more happening in the setting without monsters getting progressively stronger. The only reason monsters do get progressively stronger is because the PCs get progressively stronger. There's enough variety of monsters and possible villains in the CR 3-9 range that an E6 game can go on for years without the adventures repeating themselves. The PCs can still see progress, the story can still move forward, and everyone can keep having fun without party balance becoming progressively more skewed in favor of the spellcasters.

[NeoSeraphi]

+1

Its a role playing game after all. at least that,s what it is officially. its not about who is the first to throw a fireball that can blast a continent or who is the first to become a god.
Its supposed to be fun, and for many the fun starts to subside after around level 8 or so.

Alright, well I certainly don't want people to get the wrong idea here. I agree with and understand all this.

I was more looking for a possible explanation on that "advancement built into E6" that Manateee mentioned. So, your character advancement has other things to look forward to after 6th than just more feats?

[NeoSeraphi]

More powerful creatures than an E6 character can defeat only exist so that powerful PCs can kill them. If nobody in the setting is capable of defeating a given creature, then maybe that creature just shouldn't be present in the game setting.

There can always be more challenges, more adventures, more happening in the setting without monsters getting progressively stronger. The only reason monsters do get progressively stronger is because the PCs get progressively stronger. There's enough variety of monsters and possible villains in the CR 3-9 range that an E6 game can go on for years without the adventures repeating themselves. The PCs can still see progress, the story can still move forward, and everyone can keep having fun without party balance becoming progressively more skewed in favor of the spellcasters.

I see. So the key for an E6 DM is variety, rather than a logical progression of a themed enemy type or simply stacking class levels onto a lower CR monster. That certainly does sound like fun. Testing my skills against the entire Monster Manual does seem like it would never get old, even if my options remained the same throughout.

[Curious]

I see. So the key for an E6 DM is variety, rather than a logical progression of a themed enemy type or simply stacking class levels onto a lower CR monster. That certainly does sound like fun. Testing my skills against the entire Monster Manual does seem like it would never get old, even if my options remained the same throughout.

Well, enemies do progress, just at a much slower rate. A group of E6 heroes with an extra 20 feats can take on much more powerful foes than a group of E6 heroes who just reached epic levels. There was actually a contest a while ago about defeating a Balor in E6. Several groups managed it.

[Wookie-ranger]

More powerful creatures than an E6 character can defeat only exist so that powerful PCs can kill them. If nobody in the setting is capable of defeating a given creature, then maybe that creature just shouldn't be present in the game setting.

There can always be more challenges, more adventures, more happening in the setting without monsters getting progressively stronger. The only reason monsters do get progressively stronger is because the PCs get progressively stronger. There's enough variety of monsters and possible villains in the CR 3-9 range that an E6 game can go on for years without the adventures repeating themselves. The PCs can still see progress, the story can still move forward, and everyone can keep having fun without party balance becoming progressively more skewed in favor of the spellcasters.

well, you can still fight tougher monsters, but it will be more difficult (that's kind of the point, i know). the players need to be more prepared to to scout out the lair choose a battle field, probably lay an ambush.
they might need to hire a henchmen or two. or even go on a special quest to find a map, that then leads them to a weapon that can kill that mighty enemy.
in normal d20 most heroes just kind of walk into the dungeon and kill what ever is there, spend there typical x% or resources and gain x treasure.

given the extra challenge of E6 i find it as much (if not more) fun as the normal d20.

if you want stronger players you can also go Gestalt. that works incredibly well in E6!

[Urpriest]

While you "only" get feats (well and wealth, but it's not a WBL system AFAIK), there are special feats assigned to pick up a few choice capabilities that you wouldn't otherwise get. And feats really can feel different when you can get giant chains of them. Look up the E6 Iron Chefs (Appetizer Edition?) for some examples.

[Tyndmyr]

More powerful creatures than an E6 character can defeat only exist so that powerful PCs can kill them. If nobody in the setting is capable of defeating a given creature, then maybe that creature just shouldn't be present in the game setting.

There can always be more challenges, more adventures, more happening in the setting without monsters getting progressively stronger. The only reason monsters do get progressively stronger is because the PCs get progressively stronger. There's enough variety of monsters and possible villains in the CR 3-9 range that an E6 game can go on for years without the adventures repeating themselves. The PCs can still see progress, the story can still move forward, and everyone can keep having fun without party balance becoming progressively more skewed in favor of the spellcasters.

I've not actually seen that be the case. It's my experience that feats, while initially less powerful than levels, end up being more so, because the amount of xp you need to go from say, level 19 to level 20 is worth a fair number of feats. More to the point, offensive feats tend to end up being favored, since dropping someone before they act again is always preferable to trying to survive the action.

Also, it's a lot easier to slap power attack, etc on a char than it is to get more hp with feats. Imp Toughness is 1/char, and regular toughness is terrible. The dwarven toughness line is basically only accessible to specific strong fort save builds, in part. There's not a lot else that appreciably boosts hp. There's a LOT of feats that increase damage done.

So, eventually, it becomes rocket tag, same as high level D&D. It was a fun trip getting there to figure this all out, mind you, but when you're only a few feats into level 6, and you've got a warmage eagerly looking for a way to break the CL cap on fireball...you realize that even at medium op levels, offense outstrips defense rapidly. You throw increasingly high CR encounters, and they do more damage. People end up optimizing to nova in a surprise round, or they end up splattered.

TLDR: E6 doesn't scale half as well as people claim it does. I've gone back to regular D&D.

Well, enemies do progress, just at a much slower rate. A group of E6 heroes with an extra 20 feats can take on much more powerful foes than a group of E6 heroes who just reached epic levels. There was actually a contest a while ago about defeating a Balor in E6. Several groups managed it.

Not really that slower, xp wise. My entry in that particular encounter could kill what, two balors a round for an arbitrary length of time? I believe the majority of my feats were "I'm not bothering to specify them, so eh, toughness or whatever".

See, with that kind of pile of feats, you are going to get synergy. It's nigh impossible to avoid. You're a caster? Even a blaster is gonna look for "I want to blast more". That's either CL boosters or metamagic. If you take metamagic and have limited slots....that leads you to metamagic reducers. Either path leads to "holy god, that's a lot of damage".

[Manateee]

I was more looking for a possible explanation on that "advancement built into E6" that Manateee mentioned. So, your character advancement has other things to look forward to after 6th than just more feats?

No, it's pretty much just feats, gear and narrative/fictional rewards.

But feats are totally advancement.
For instance, in d20, they're all the advancement non-casters get.
<_<

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can do something like... a Reserves of Strength (DCS), Lesser Rod of/Sudden Maximized Fireball, for 54 damage, and on the following round Quick Recovery (LoM) to break the stun and cast another spell with Reserves, and just repeat that every round. Any character could do that without any extra feats, though I'm sure there's some way to get that up to a maximized 13d6 in E6.

I was chatting with my gaming group about E6 a while back, we'd just watched the movie Troy. One guy said Achilles was 6th level and Hector was around 4th level. Another told him that they were both 6th level, and that "Hector is a character you built, and Achilles is a character that Nate (me) built."

I'll agree that there is some silly stuff you can do in E6, from the double Ocular Split Ray Twinned Maximized Sanctum Enervation Dread Necromancer to the Spellhoarding Venerable Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Loredrake Martial Wizard 1/ Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4/ Mindbender 1 with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage and Collegiate Wizard. Even reasonable characters who are extremely focused throughout their career, like a (Water) Halfling Sneak Attack Thug Fighter 6 with the Fighter capstone feat, TWF, ITWF, Weapon Focus, Specialization, Greater Focus, Melee Weapon Mastery, Improved Crit, probably EWP: Barbed Daggers and Craven, and Swords/weapons of Subtlety. Then there's the Wild Shape Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order, Natural Spell, and Extra Wild Shape, who spends all day every day in the form of a Fleshraker dinosaur and can cast (Extended) Wraithstrike and Venomous Volley, and Wand of Venomfire....

E6 is not about PCs being limited in what they can defeat. It's about the party being more or less within one tier of each other in power, rather than a few characters feeling useless while the spellcasters steal the show. Casters are still a strong choice, but nonspellcasters are no longer a mistake (except for Monks), and can make just as significant a contribution as the spellcasters in most situations. The point of E6 is not to make the PCs incapable of defeating certain opponents, it's to keep the PCs' power somewhat equal relative to each other, and I think it does a great job of that, apart from the character-building proficiency discrepancies outlined in the Achilles/Hector example above.

[Rossebay]

No, it's pretty much just feats, gear and narrative/fictional rewards.

But feats are totally advancement.
For instance, in d20, they're all the advancement non-casters get.
<_<

Yeah... For characters like Shifters, E6 ends up being really cool.

Basically, E6 continues until players get bored with their characters. It's slower advancement, though. Definitely. Even in my group, we realize that there is a CL cap, only so much PA damage that you can get off, and only so many feats you can take. E6 should cap out at around CR 10, but higher CR creatures can be defeated.

In my experience, E6 tapers off to getting a little boring after 20 feats or so, but that's only because the DM begins to get bored or run out of ideas. If we had a stronger DM, we'd have longer games.

E6 does, though, balance out Melee and Casters. Definitely.

[Kaeso]

Doesn't E6 really gimp casters, especially the wizard?
While clerics and especially druids can handle themselves quite well at lower levels, wizards are quite screwed, as they dont have the end all be all spells and can run out of spell slots pretty quickly. Clerics and druids without any spells left can still make themselves useful as secondary beatsticks.

[HunterOfJello]

E6 is not about PCs being limited in what they can defeat. It's about the party being more or less within one tier of each other in power, rather than a few characters feeling useless while the spellcasters steal the show. Casters are still a strong choice, but nonspellcasters are no longer a mistake (except for Monks), and can make just as significant a contribution as the spellcasters in most situations. The point of E6 is not to make the PCs incapable of defeating certain opponents, it's to keep the PCs' power somewhat equal relative to each other, and I think it does a great job of that, apart from the character-building proficiency discrepancies outlined in the Achilles/Hector example above.

You have just convinced me that playing an E6 game would be even more fun than I imagined. I guess having a group of people who know the game well enough to do basic optimization would also be helpful in general.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I just feel like if you can't progress, you wouldn't be able to face tougher enemies, and then there's not as much to look forward to. It's not an end-all problem, but it certainly seems like it wouldn't be as fun (to me).

I've never played an E6 game, nor am I actually playing a game now (I DM the only game I'm involved in), but I'm of the mind that the world doesn't stop having dragons or legendary creatures just because they're not CR-appropriate. A group of ECL 2 players are just as likely to find a dire bear as they are a wolf in my campaign worlds; if they choose, then, to fight a bear that is much larger and fiercer than any they'd see, that is entirely their problem, and can result in either an epic struggle for survival or a tragic massacre, depending on how foolhardy they are.

That said, a game where players cap at 6th wouldn't necessarily stop me from introducing Vrocks or even Hezrou into the game world (as far as CR are concerned), but such encounters would be the climactic, balls-to-the-wall, high-stakes struggle to the death that Vrocks should represent, instead of an opportunity for the rest of the party to wait patiently for the party wizard to cast Dismissal.

P.S. I keep getting server busy messages, so this message is probably coming way too late to be relevant.

[Rossebay]

Doesn't E6 really gimp casters, especially the wizard?
While clerics and especially druids can handle themselves quite well at lower levels, wizards are quite screwed, as they dont have the end all be all spells and can run out of spell slots pretty quickly. Clerics and druids without any spells left can still make themselves useful as secondary beatsticks.

Uhh, wrong. Druids and Clerics get, what, 1 more BAB? Wizard is just as good with Weapon Finesse or weapon focus out of his extra feats.

Either way, Wizards and Sorcerers get 3rd level spells at this point. 1 fireball against a legion of goblins is infinitely more useful than one sword against the same.

Casters are still just as good.

[HunterOfJello]

After all, after a certain CR, spell resistance would become insurmountable for a CL 6 caster, and Damage Reduction becomes a bigger problem for a character with only +6 BAB.

I guess what I'm asking is, how long do you guys usually keep playing a game after you hit 6th level?

As far as Spell Resistance and Damage Reduction go:

SR Feats
Spell Penetration = +2 to overcome SR
Greater Spell Penetration = +2 to overcome SR
Fortify Spell Metamagic (CArc) = +2 to overcome per increase in spell level
Shadow Weave Magic = +1 to overcome SR for Enchantment, Illusion, & Necromancy schools
Pernicious Magic = +4 to overcome SR on a creature without the Shadow Weave Magic feat

SR Items
Third Eye Penetrate (Face) = +2 to overcome SR
Vest of the Archmagi (Torso)= +2 to overcome SR [Okay, this item costs 200k gp, but it is possible to get!]
Tomebound Eye of Boccob = +4 to +8 on one to three wizard spells when they are being prepared

Using those items and feats it would be easy to +11 to overcome SR from feats and up to a whopping +23 to overcome SR on one spell if the group had a ton of cash and prepared one specific spell to overcome an enemy's SR.

~~~~~~

As for Damage Reduction, that's an easy problem to solve. Matrial Study (Mountain Hammer) can do the trick, going ahead and buying a weapon of every different DR overcoming type would work well, and finally you can go and get a weapon enhanced with the +3 enhancement, Shadow Striking, from Tome of Magic. Shadow Striking attunes to the DR of anything it hits for 1d4 minutes and can overcome it for that period of time.

Doesn't E6 really gimp casters, especially the wizard?
While clerics and especially druids can handle themselves quite well at lower levels, wizards are quite screwed, as they dont have the end all be all spells and can run out of spell slots pretty quickly. Clerics and druids without any spells left can still make themselves useful as secondary beatsticks.

Wizards and Sorcerers are definitely weak at low levels. However, by the time those arcane casters get to level 6, they definitely aren't weak anymore. Either class is fine in a party and will be able to outdo a cleric and druid in many situations.

You're also forgetting about the bonus feats and items that E6 characters gain access to. The Improved Familiar feat will give a wizard or sorcerer access to the Blink Dog, Hell Hound, Air Elemental, and Jaculi. All 4 are awesome familiars. The Hell Hound will be useful in combat for quite some time and the Blink Dog is a huge boon for delivering touch attacks.

If a sorcerer or wizard is unhappy with their lack of spell slots then they can go feat crazy and take Extra Slot multiple times. If a wizard gets enough money they can also go and buy Rings of Wizardry and piss off all of the other spellcasters in the universe. A Wizard 6 can gain two extra 3rd level spells cast per day from a Ring of Wizardry III. If they get a lower level version they'll pay less and get 3 extra spells for the respective level per day. If the player decides on focusing some effort on gaining more spells per day, they can succeed quickly and easily.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Doesn't E6 really gimp casters, especially the wizard?
While clerics and especially druids can handle themselves quite well at lower levels, wizards are quite screwed, as they dont have the end all be all spells and can run out of spell slots pretty quickly. Clerics and druids without any spells left can still make themselves useful as secondary beatsticks.

My experience with wizards at level 6 (and I know wizards very intimately at around this level) is that they are just starting to come out unto their own at this point, but they are not yet capable of having a solution to literally every problem that could ever surface, and having enough slots where they no longer need to choose, but simply have every solution to every common problem at all times. In core, a 6th-level wizard can still fly, be invisible, bend time (but not break it) with Haste and Slow or space with Enlarge and Reduce Person, blow things up (just not with a cursory glance), control some undead, turn away arrows (outside of core, they can Reverse them) and energy spells, create all manner of illusions and glamers, and what-have-you. These are all things that we would regard as epic in our everyday world. They are, meanwhile, still quite squishy, but that is the trade that they are making for the level of power they are getting (namely, the above abilities). Thinking about it in retrospect, I considered myself more powerful (if not more survivable) than most of the people in my adventuring party at level 6, but not so much so that there was no cause for comparison at any level; many of them still had tricks I could not ever hope to emulate, and we were all better off for it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Make your Wizard an Elf, get Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot for rays and for bows. There, you don't need spells to make a noticeable contribution, especially if there's a Bard in the party. Plus, low-level Wands are extremely good in E6.

[NeoSeraphi]

As for Damage Reduction, that's an easy problem to solve. Matrial Study (Mountain Hammer) can do the trick, going ahead and buying a weapon of every different DR overcoming type would work well, and finally you can go and get a weapon enhanced with the +3 enhancement, Shadow Striking, from Tome of Magic. Shadow Striking attunes to the DR of anything it hits for 1d4 minutes and can overcome it for that period of time.

Martial Study only lets you use it once per encounter, holding a weapon that is the opposite alignment as yours gives you two Persistent negative levels (such as a good character holding an unholy weapon) and those would really hurt in a game where your max level was 6!

Shadow Striking sounds like it could work, I don't know the exact details of the feature since I haven't read it, but I suppose chucking money at the problem would help in the long-run.

Edit: You make a point about penetrating spell resistance though, and of course you could always just use spells like major image that don't allow SR.

[Surrealistik]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215986

Probably the best incarnation of E6 going.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

What exists in an E6 setting that even has (or is even capable of summoning something that has) DR X/Alignment?!

You can still Power Attack + Leap Attack + Shock Trooper + Charging Smite + Rhino's Rush + Valorous weapon + Armbands of Might for....
Str 18, +1 Valorous Greatsword: 2d6+7
Power Attack with Armbands: -6 AC, +14 damage; Leap Attack: +28
Charging Smite: +Cha to hit, +15 damage
Rhino's Rush + Valorous: x2 + x2 = x3
6d6+150 damage, or 8d6+200 on a critical hit.

[NeoSeraphi]

What exists in an E6 setting that even has (or is even capable of summoning something that has) DR X/Alignment?!

Off the top of my head? A rakshasa is CR 10. Then again, I don't know anything about the type of monsters you would see in an E6 game, but

You can still Power Attack + Leap Attack + Shock Trooper + Charging Smite + Rhino's Rush + Valorous weapon + Armbands of Might for....
Str 18, +1 Valorous Greatsword: 2d6+7
Power Attack with Armbands: -6 AC, +14 damage; Leap Attack: +28
Charging Smite: +Cha to hit, +15 damage
Rhino's Rush + Valorous: x2 + x2 = x3
6d6+150 damage, or 8d6+200 on a critical hit.

Assuming you were level 10 (so you'd only have...4 extra feats?) and you were using a paladin so you couldn't use GWF or anything like that, you'd only have about 10+Str+Cha to-hit, and a rakshasa with greater magic armor and shield up would have 31 AC...so I dunno, it might be close.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I doubt a Rakshasa would use one of his 3rd level spell slots for +2 AC over using just Mage Armor, so more like 29 AC.

I was keeping that somewhat reasonable. If he was level E6 10, he'd probably have more like Str 24, probably Cha 18, a +2 primary weapon, not even any Bless/Haste/etc. even though it looks like a boss fight.

6 BAB + 7 Str + 2 Charge + 4 Cha + 2 Enhancement + 2 Weapon Focus = +23 to hit, he misses on 1-5 (25%), hits on 6-20 (75%).