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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Akisa View Post
    You know what I don't get. Why are people so against the pc being able to kill a god? There are several stories where the protagonist takes on a god.
    Care to give some examples? I can't think of any from classic mythology, and very few in modern literature.

    Also, I assume it has something to do with most gamers being raised in a monotheistic culture where gods are considered to be more or less all powerful and existing on a higher level of realitythan normal humans rather than being just really big and powerful heroes / wizards.
    Last edited by Talakeal; 2012-02-10 at 09:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Thread #2

    Well first thing that pops into my head is Hercules/Xena (though Hercules various version also have that theme). There are stores where BBEG also achieve godhood at the climax of the stories but still get taken down by Protagonist.
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Akisa View Post
    You know what I don't get. Why are people so against the pc being able to kill a god? There are several stories where the protagonist takes on a god.
    I think the problem isn't with a story where you get to kill a deity, but that (1) if the deity has stats, then killing it isn't particularly different from killing a random monster, which cheapens their value; (2) f you print a deity's stats in the rulebook, certain players will expect to kill that deity even if the DM wasn't planning it, and (3) if the stats are too low, it can be killed either by low-level characters, or by tricks like an army of 100-ish low-level archers (who can hit the god only on a 20, but do substantial damage anyway).
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    I think the problem isn't with a story where you get to kill a deity, but that (1) if the deity has stats, then killing it isn't particularly different from killing a random monster, which cheapens their value; (2) f you print a deity's stats in the rulebook, certain players will expect to kill that deity even if the DM wasn't planning it, and (3) if the stats are too low, it can be killed either by low-level characters, or by tricks like an army of 100-ish low-level archers (who can hit the god only on a 20, but do substantial damage anyway).
    That to. It was a wierd day when I realized that my cleric had a higher wisdom than the god she was praying to for guidance.

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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Akisa View Post
    Well first thing that pops into my head is Hercules/Xena (though Hercules various version also have that theme). There are stores where BBEG also achieve godhood at the climax of the stories but still get taken down by Protagonist.
    Well, Hercules was a demigod (the son of Zeus), and Xena may have been as well (daughter of Ares). I think players want deity to mean something. If PCs can kill gods, then what does divinity even mean? Some of them are hoping to attain it, but if it doesn't mean anything...

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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    I think the problem isn't with a story where you get to kill a deity, but that (1) if the deity has stats, then killing it isn't particularly different from killing a random monster, which cheapens their value; (2) f you print a deity's stats in the rulebook, certain players will expect to kill that deity even if the DM wasn't planning it, and (3) if the stats are too low, it can be killed either by low-level characters, or by tricks like an army of 100-ish low-level archers (who can hit the god only on a 20, but do substantial damage anyway).
    Although this problems can be prevented if damaging a god takes some prerequisites (like "you have to be above level 20") and the stats are higher than what the players could reach without becoming a god or something similar themself.

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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Thread #2

    For that the system makes a huge difference. In 3rd Edition, stats are really not that imporatant. I recently heard of people having a challenge to make a wizard that can with a high chance of success take out a level 300 monk, and supposedly someone came up with a 15th level wizard who could do that. The incredible BAB, hp, AC, and saves of the monk didn't matter much, and that would still be way ahead of any deity that got official stats.
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Thread #2

    As soon as the stat block for something is printed, a player will figure out a mechanical way to kill it either through straight up rule mechanics or via a rule loophole.

    Gods always seemed to me like they should be more than just another entry in a monster manual,
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerrin View Post
    As soon as the stat block for something is printed, a player will figure out a mechanical way to kill it either through straight up rule mechanics or via a rule loophole.

    Gods always seemed to me like they should be more than just another entry in a monster manual,
    That was pretty much the theory behind The Primal Order - Gods (and godlings) had access to "primal" energy which could pretty much trump anything mundane, by definition. A defense laced with a single point of primal energy could trump any mundane (including normal magic) attack sent at it.

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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Thread #2

    Personally I find the idea of Gods who you can't challenge less interesting than Gods who can be challenged. In that sense, I'll vote for statted gods everytime, even if the stats are ridiculous.

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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Personally I find the idea of Gods who you can't challenge less interesting than Gods who can be challenged. In that sense, I'll vote for statted gods everytime, even if the stats are ridiculous.
    I agree. And that's why I liked TPO. Gods were still statted, and minor deities/etc. were vulnerable if they ran out of Primal. Major gods and the like would be very tough, unless you found a way to get some primal energy yourself. But they were still statted.

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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Thread #2

    I think having gods with stats probably isn't really much of a problem. You still need the DM to bring the god to you to fight him. Even in third edition at epic levels, you can't just say that you teleport next to a god and start to fight him. And if the DM runs a game in which you can do that, it's almost guaranteed to be a campaign in which killing gods is perfectly fine.
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    That to. It was a wierd day when I realized that my cleric had a higher wisdom than the god she was praying to for guidance.
    Well, some Greek gods (and gods of other polytheistic pantheons) don't exactly strike me as having a very high Wisdom.


    As for the god-killing, I'd expect any god that shouldn't be easily killable, to be immune to every mundane kind of damage (including magic and the like). You need an epic campaign just to attain the power necessary to hurt the god. And to reach it, probably.

    Personally I think that in the right kind of mythical fantasy setting, it's perfectly reasonable to have statted and killable gods. For that matter, it's also possible to make statted and unkillable gods. But killing a god should certainly not be easy, or the gods themselves would have killed each other several times over.

    Consider that in Greek mythology, after a devastating war between the Olypians and the Titans, the losing Titans were not dead, but locked in Hades and subjected to terrible tortures.

    Edit: On the other hand, Uranus, father of the Titans, was killed by his son Cronus (father of Zeus). Why Uranus was so easily killed and not anyone else, I have no idea.
    Last edited by mcv; 2012-02-12 at 03:59 PM.

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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Thread #2

    First some background. I started playing D&D in the early 80’s when I was in the military. I played every edtion except 3.0 (my group spent so long wraping up our 2e games that 3.5 was already announced). I have been to Gen con over a dozen times, and origins a few times. I helped run a local con a few years, and manged only once to make it to DDX. I played living greyhawk, living forgotten realms, and ashes to ashes. Last year our LFR DM got some playtest stuff from wotc (no big deal), but then in dec we got offered to try something newer… SO we got to be part of the friends and family playtest. As such we have 5 pc pre gens same characters at 3 different levels (2,5,10) and 2 adventures full of monsters. We were told to run the 2 adventures 3 times and then fill out surveys.

    We already sent back our answers, and as such I hope that we can play again come open play test...most of this is already out there, I figure there is no way to track me back to my NDA at this point, but I still would not post this on D&D site.

    The 5 characters: Human Wizard, Elf Wizard, Dwarf Warlord, Half orc Cleric, Halfling thief. The 2 wizards are following very different rules.

    Human Wizard has a spell book with something like X (5 at 2nd, umpteen at 5th and like 30 at 10th) spells in it. He only gets X (2 at 2nd, 5 at 5th, and 7 at 10th)spells per day though. He preps in the morning what spells he wants with no limit (can prep any spell 5 times if he wants). He has a feat (at 5th and 10th) that gives him the ability to make a javelin of fire. It does the same damage as the Dwarf’s javelin, just as fire, and requires an attack roll. He also can once per encounter (from 2nd level on up) use either Burning hands or ray of enfeeblement, prep one and that is his encounter for the day. (he has not used it yet but I think he could prep shield as well).
    His daily powers all have (X save for1/2 or negate) the DCs are all set by spell, and we could not back engineer the DCs and how they were set.
    He has a wand and a dagger, and he sucks if he needs to attack with the dagger

    My elf wizard (who does not have Elvin accuracy) has 5 cantrips at will, 2 of them look like they broke up prestidigitation into 3 and I only have 2 of the 3. I then have mage hand (almost a direct port from 4e), Detect Magic, and Magic missile. MM has the most interesting scale. At second level it auto hits a target in 20ft for 1d4 damage (no mod) at 5th level it auto hits either 1 or 2 targets in 45ft, if 2 targets 1d4 each, if 1 target 1d8 damage. At 10th level can hit 1,2,or 3 targets in 60ft 1d4 each if 3 targets, 1d6 if 2 targets, and 1d10 if 1 target. I can once per encounter at 2nd, and 2times per encounter at 5th and 10th use an evergy bolt (kinda like warlock eldritch blast) that does 2d6+3 (int is plus we think) save for half. I choose when I use it what energy type it deals, fire or acid is a Dex save for half, Electric or Acid is Con Save for half. I have 2/3/4 dailys depending on level, and they are all siloes. The 5th and 10th level versions and have a silo of Fireball/Hast/Dispel Magic, so once per day I can use one of those spells, but no prep. When I cast any spell (except cantrips that just work) I roll a d20 to set the DC, I add what I think is my Int mod to the roll (and the 10th level me gets +1 to the roll more).

    Example: Fight 1 I cast Energy Bolt (Fire), I pick a target (lets say an orc) and he makes a dex save. The DC is 1d20+3, lets say I roll great, I get an 18, the DC is now 21. I roll damage well he rolls his save, and my luck holds, I roll a 6 and a 4 (+3) and he gets a 14 save… so I do 13 fire damage
    Fight 2 I cast energy bold Electric, I pick another Orc as the target, he makes a Con Save. I roll a bad roll and set the DC at 7 (4 on the roll), and he rolls higher then that before con mod, so I roll damage, get a 4 and a 2 (+3) so I do 4 electric damage to the orc (save for half).

    Some monsters have an evasion like ability that if they roll a 20, or double the DC for a save for half they take none.

    I use a wand and sword at level 2, at level 5 and 10 I have an elvin sword that functions as an implement. I am way better with melee then the human wizard, but that only places me at 3rd best at 2nd and 5th and 4th best at 10th (when the thief beats me)

    The warlord and the Cleric can both heal, at 2nd level the warlord can heal only in combat with hit riders, and the cleric can only heal outside of combat using daily prayers. By 5th level they can both do both (and the cleric can prep prayers by then, and as such change daily). The cleric fights with a mace, the warlord with an axe and shield (he also has a 2 handed sword and a bunch of javalins). The warlord is by far the best melee combatant in the group, and has the most hp.

    The hafling thief is interesting. He has 2 daggers, and can fight with both from the start. He makes 2 attacks with a -2 to hit each does 1d4+1 or one attack that does 1d4+3/4 depending on level. If he has advantage (no combat in the phrase) he adds damage. At level 2 he adds 1d6, at level 5 2d8, and at level 10 3d8. He can use this sneak attack with every hit though. He then has a bunch of circumstance powers/modfires. If he is hidden from a target at the start of his turn he can deal an extra d4 damage but he can’t attack with 2 weapons. If he is being flanked and an enemy misses with a melee attack he can deal 3 or 4 damage(depend on level) to the other target flanking him. If he starts his turn not ingaged in melee he can move, attack, move, but again only 1 attack.

    He also has a daily on both 5th and 10th level that seems pretty crazy. It lets him turn invisible, and move if he gives up his attack.

    at 10th he also has the ability to if he is crit “roll with it” he gives up his next attack, but he can move now, and the crit is turned to just a normal hit.
    The two adventures we have we refer to as the Easy undead adventure, and the Deadly Orc Adventure. The undead one is mostly zombies, 2 ghouls, and ends with a vampire. It is pretty strait forward, but with a twist (well the town is being overrun so is the local goblin tribe) The orcs are WAY harder. They are attempting to unlock a mystic sealed gate. They have 2 or 3 hobgoblin mercs with them, and there are traps and killer spiders as well. The orc shaman is pretty badass, but the real kicker is the Orc Chief and his brother, both are half orc half oger.

    We tpked against the Chieftain at 2nd level, and only beat him at 5th because of a good tactic, at 10th we won clean. At 5th level we new what was comeing, and we prepped. The cleric blessed the party (+1 to melee attacks and cha saves), I hasted the party (+1 to weapon attacks, +1 AC, +5ft move, and I can give up my standard action any turn to grant a move or standard to anyone else effected), and then I used Invisibility. I spent the whole fight just giving the hafling more attacks.

    I know dice can’t be factored in, and luck is a strange mistress, but not one charm or sleep spell has worked yet, saves where made everytime. My wizard seems to be a melee monster (at 2nd and 5th I have +1 less to hit then the cleric and +1 more then the thief, at 10th the thief and cleric get the same to hit). The other wizard goes up 2 to hit between 2 and 5, then 1 between 5 and 10. The thief is the reverse 1 between 2 and 5 then 3 more by 10th. I go up 1 per jump so does the cleric and warlord.
    At no point at 2nd level does my wizard need a 20 to hit anything with my sword (although the shaman orc can buff himself up to (for one round), and the chief’s brother has an AC I need a 19 at that level, and the other wiz would need a 20 for)

    The warlord has a cool power thing that when he or an ally has advantage over an adjacent enemy they get +3 instead of +2 to hit. He also has a commander strike like ability, and he has something called wolf pact tactics as a feat or class feature (can’t tell diff) that when he hits with his axe he or an ally adjacent to the target can move up to half there speed.
    Magic items so far: Gauntlets of Ogre power give +2 str and a push effect power. Ring of prot increases AC and saves. Elvin Long sword functions as a wand. Knives have a returning feature (maybe all magic thrown weapons). Pearls of Power exsist too, and the 10th level wizard has 2 of them.

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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Thread #2

    D&D5eplayer I'm trying to process your post. Let me see if I got this right.

    Wizards prepare spells but also have per encounter powers.
    Characters have daily and encounter powers.
    Saving throws are D20s rolled against each other.
    Weapon profficiencies are gained as you level.

    Ok.
    Do healing surges exist?
    How many HP do characters have?
    What is the skill system like?
    When you make a melee attack do you roll your D20 attack VS their D20 defense?
    How quickly do combats run?
    Last edited by MukkTB; 2012-02-12 at 11:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Thread #2

    this sounds interesting, varied, but I'm unsure.

    dislike the per encounter powers.
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by the humanity View Post
    this sounds interesting, varied, but I'm unsure.

    dislike the per encounter powers.
    Same here. The daily / encounter powers were the thing I liked least about 4th ed, atleast for martial abilities, and if they stay then I will likely be giving fifth edition a pass.

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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Thread #2

    *Throws 60% of positive into fire*

    Its beginning to look 4eish. Im also questioning the fire spear thing. Im paying a feat that any schmuck with a spear can already do.

    Maybe its just the writing but the way the powers are spread out it seems confusing.

    Im also a bit disappointed that a new mechanic for melee wasn't introduced instead of powers. I dislike the martail 4e powers.

    Also two rolls at a time are a more accurate representation of saves but thier going to be a pain in the ass for two reasons (Still, might be a good thing):

    1: Theres going to be even more wishy washyness. You might be able to damage somebody REALY high level because they roll low and you roll high.
    2: Its going to take a long time. No more comparing to a number. You can't just roll four dice for a Kobold swarm. Your rolling 8.

    But this still might work out. Hopefully it still has elements that I like.

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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by mcv View Post
    Edit: On the other hand, Uranus, father of the Titans, was killed by his son Cronus (father of Zeus). Why Uranus was so easily killed and not anyone else, I have no idea.
    Because that's 1st Edition mythology, and later editions made the gods harder to kill
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Because that's 1st Edition mythology, and later editions made the gods harder to kill
    Actually Uranus wasn't killed, he was castrated and ran away in shame. During the Victorian era the myth was "cleaned up" and he was killed instead.

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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Thread #2

    One D20 represents a much simpler probability issue than 2 D20s rolled against each other.

    To start you the variance is almost doubled. Its possible to roll 39 higher than your opponent. We now also have a probability curve. Rolling 39 higher is only possible 1 way. Rolling 38 higher is possible 2 ways. I don't feel very comfortable with such huge variance or the strange curve that it creates.

    Of course that assumes the post is accurate and that Wizards don't change things from the beta. IDK. This is weird.
    Last edited by MukkTB; 2012-02-13 at 12:48 PM.

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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by MukkTB View Post
    One D20 represents a much simpler probability issue than 2 D20s rolled against each other.

    To start you the variance is almost doubled. Its possible to roll 39 higher than your opponent. We now also have a probability curve. Rolling 39 higher is only possible 1 way. Rolling 38 higher is possible 2 ways. I don't feel very comfortable with such huge variance or the strange curve that it creates.

    Of course that assumes the post is not a troll and that Wizards don't change things from the beta. IDK. This is weird.
    The variance is doubled, but the chance of beating the save stays the same.

    Old DC: 13 vs. Save: d20 (avg 10.5) +save mod
    New DC: d20 (avg 10.5) +3 vs. Save: d20 (avg 10.5) +save mod

    It may make things more exciting, because your high roll might be trumped by my higher roll, or my mediocre roll might still beat your lousy roll. I'm not saying I'm supporting the change, but it's not the worst they could do.

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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Thread #2

    I was under the impression that a 5e design goal was monsters that can pose a threat at most levels without any special effort going into scaling them, so I'm not convinced that "you can hurt someone high level if you roll high and they roll low" constitutes much of a complaint.

    I was, however, under the impression that they were going to do that by curbing 3rd edition's number inflation and world-blowing advancement rules.

    As far as encounter powers are concerned, I have no major complaints. They aren't the best way to do things, but they're better than a lot of the alternatives.

    Even the realism complaints that usually get levelled against them are completely groundless -- the reasons it's assumed you can't hit with a sword a particular way more than once a fight might be abstracted, but they are there. It is not actually much of a stretch from "the conditions you need to do this particular trick come up, on average, once a fight" to "you can do this once a fight".

    A 'fatigue point' system would be clichéd, no less abstract, and less realistic overall because it attributes everything to a single factor that's only part of the story.

    4e's over-simplified encounter powers were a definite step back from 3e-style encounter powers, but they still aren't terrible.
    Last edited by lesser_minion; 2012-02-13 at 07:40 AM.

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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Thread #2

    Personaly I believe they where.

    Thing is High level monsters begin to leave IMPACT if even lower level creatures pose the same impact.

    Dragons for example. If you could kill a level 10 one at level 5 through rather lucky rolls you loose the impact of the dragon.

    Thing that Im worried about is them creating an edition where everything FEELS like your playing a certain edition.

    As in gives the illusion of being connected but actually not.

    So for example you have a spellbook (Just like before) but its insignificant and only gives the ILLUSION of selection rather then a true system.

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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by lesser_minion View Post
    4e's over-simplified encounter powers were a definite step back from 3e-style encounter powers, but they still aren't terrible.
    I played some 4e, but I'm not sure how the encounter powers changed from ToB. I personally didn't mind the martial adepts in 3.5 but something had certainly changed for 4e. What was it?

    Quote Originally Posted by NinjaStylerobot View Post
    Dragons for example. If you could kill a level 10 one at level 5 through rather lucky rolls you loose the impact of the dragon.
    Disagreement here. When luck allows the party to win out over seemingly insurmountable odds, the party knows it. There is a lot of "Oh man, if the Cathezar hadn't fumbled on her save against that Death Effect, we'd all be screwed right now," and high-fives are offered to the lucky one. Its great for player morale to be able to slip by without having the DM fudge things.

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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Thread #2

    In a very loose manner Im saying your putting EVEN MORE elements on luck.

    If the game is just hope for luck, then its not very good.

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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by NinjaStylerobot View Post
    In a very loose manner Im saying your putting EVEN MORE elements on luck.
    Rolling 2d20 on a saving throw instead of 1d20 is putting less weight on luck, not more.
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Ursus the Grim View Post
    I played some 4e, but I'm not sure how the encounter powers changed from ToB. I personally didn't mind the martial adepts in 3.5 but something had certainly changed for 4e. What was it?
    Basically, it hardened the limit on how often you can use your powers -- most ToB martial adepts ship with an easy way to recover their powers, whereas 4e requires you to either burn a limited resource or be epic level.

    The reason it's a step back is a variant of the 15-minute workday problem -- you have to account for encounter powers in your encounter designs, which naturally means less varied and less ambitious encounters. It also has the problem that while you'd expect someone who specialises in a particular technique to be able to use it more easily (which, under this abstraction, means more often), there's no way to reflect that in 4e.

    Note, however, that "a step backwards" is a long way from the "this means that D&D 4th edition sucks forever" that we had to endure when this was first brought up.
    Last edited by lesser_minion; 2012-02-13 at 10:17 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #329

    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Thread #2

    Im realy not sure how that works.


    1d20: Lets assume I need to get 15. I need to get lucky to hit.

    2D20: Im comparing my luck to my opponents luck.

  30. - Top - End - #330
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Thread #2

    Try rolling 1 dice and guess the result.
    Now try rolling 10 dice and guess the summarized results.

    How far was your guess away from reality?
    Last edited by Leolo; 2012-02-13 at 08:50 AM.

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