Dealing with a certain player

[Laura Eternata]

Hello, Playgrounders. As evidenced by the title, my group has run into a little problem, and I'm open to any advice at this point. My apologies if this is a bit long winded.

My current group started playing D&D about a year ago. It was comprised of four people, myself included. I was the only one familiar with the game, having played it my brother a few times, so I taught the rest of them how it went. Unfortunately, we decided to play it for the first time on a whim, and I had no game prepared, so I tried improvising. It didn't go so well, and what little plot I had was quickly derailed by one of the players (we'll call him Frank). The rest of us didn't have a very good time; I was a very inexperienced DM at the time, so in my fear of railroading the party, I let Frank get away with a lot more than I should have, and when other two players (George and Sara) approached him about it, he decide that roleplaying wasn't really his thing after all, and left.

The three of us played for a while before finally deciding that we needed more people. We invited two friends of ours, who we'll call Joan and Lilly. Joan's a longtime friend of Sara's and mine, and Lilly was at least a friendly acquaintance. Lilly and George had also just become romantically involved at this point. That game went horribly, with Joan staying silent almost all night and Lilly showing no interest in the rules at all. So we booted them, too.

Recently, we've gotten to talking about our lack of players again, and we decided to invite Joan and Frank back. Sara claims to have enjoyed the game she took part in, despite her silence, and Frank (who's just become romantically involved with her) decided to give it another shot. Sara was strongly against it, as she doesn't like Frank very much, but George and I overruled her. (Please note that if she had her way, it would be just her and George playing. The two of us haven't been on the best of terms lately.)

The game was last night. George and I thought it went very well; Joan was still quiet, but still claims to enjoy it, and Frank was clearly having a blast even while cooperating with the DM. I thought that would be the end of the arguing, but after George and Joan left, Sara told George and me that she hated the entire thing and refuses to let Frank come back.

Right now, George and I are trying to talk her into having us run two separate games, one with Frank and Joan and one without, but she doesn't seem to be giving way. My question is... what the hell should I do?

Again, sorry for the length. I just really needed to get this off my chest.

[Headless Baron]

I suppose it depends on how much say Sara has in the decision making process, since she's the only one not having fun. If she's the host, then I'd recommend finding another place to run the game, and let her know that she's welcome to join you if she feels inclined to.
In the end the only thing you can do is get a group of people together who are all interested in playing /this/ game with /these/ people. And as to those who don't, let them go do their own thing while you're gaming. You don't have to game with all of your friends in any given campaign.

[Laura Eternata]

(Damn 503 errors… I had a veritable essay written out. Here’s the slimmed down version :)

Thing is, Sara isn't the most... reasonable person I know, and she might consider even the suggestion of the rest of us playing without her a betrayal. Besides, she and Joan are close friends, and I think Joan wouldn't be comfortable being the indirect cause of Sara getting kicked out.

Here's how things stand, for clarification:
-Sara really doesn't like Frank. A quote from her, lifted from a facebook post: "He just makes me crazy. Just everything about him sends me over the edge. I'm not crazy about him generally, as I believe we've covered already. D&D is a nice break from him. I don't wanna do it again."
-Sara and Joan are close friends.
-George is everyone's friend, but he admits that Sara has been getting worse lately.
-Joan and Frank are romantically involved, so they're a box set.
-Sara doesn't like me very much, nor do I care for her.

As to how much say Sara has... she THINKS she has a great deal. She feels that her seniority should allow her to veto Frank from playing, and a straight out, "It doesn't work that way" is likely to send her over the edge.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Oh boy, not sure what to make of this, but this is what I'd do. First of all don't worry about the quiet one, if she says she's having fun take her word for it for now, some people take a while to come out and actually roleplay. As for this Sara... if Frank isn't causing trouble for anyone else and everyone except her enjoys playing with him tell her she really just needs to accept his presence there. She doesn't have to like it, just tolerate it and not cause a fuss (if you have to point out that you're currently showing her the same courtesy, you don't like it but you're not causing drama over having her there.). And if it really causes her that much distress it is her responsibility to get herself out of that situation unless she can coherently and logically explain why Frank shouldn't be allowed to play. (And "I don't like him." is not a good enough reason.)

Really it is on her to deal with it and if she doesn't like the current group she is more than welcome to start her own group where she can invite anyone she likes.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Gather all the players except Sara. Talk to them about it, and decide as a group whether to kick her out or not. If they vote no, continue for another few sessions, and if it doesn't get any better, or gets worse, meet with them again. If they vote yes, you have everyone on your side, except possibly Joan. If Joan doesn't want to kick in fear of ending the friendship, the problem is too deep and you should continue playing with Sara unless it gets worse.

[RoboHobo]

Sounds like Sara is trying to up the stakes, playing brinkmanship to get her way. You need to downplay it and react calmly and without hostility.

"Hi Sara, it's me Laura. The last game with everyone worked well, they seemed to have fun. I'd like to keep going with the whole group and see how it works out. I'd love for you to keep playing as well, let me know how you feel about it. We can just take it a game at a time and see how it goes."

If she "goes over the edge" at that, then it wasn't you pushing her, she just jumped. She might need a tactful reminder that the world doesn't revolve around her. Just don't react to any craziness that ensues, be the bigger person, and try to downplay the drama.

[Belril Duskwalk]

I think Jade has a reasonable answer. Another option could be to delicately point out to Sara that she is the only one with a problem with Frank and Frank has no problem with her. In fact the only player-group problem seems to be that Sara dislikes Frank. Considering that, Sara seems to have a choice, she can tolerate Frank and try to enjoy herself with him around, or she can leave. Starting a secondary game without him isn't a bad option and if someone else feels comfortable DMing it could even be a nice break for you from DMing.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I think Jade has a reasonable answer. Another option could be to delicately point out to Sara that she is the only one with a problem with Frank and Frank has no problem with her. In fact the only player-group problem seems to be that Sara dislikes Frank. Considering that, Sara seems to have a choice, she can tolerate Frank and try to enjoy herself with him around, or she can leave. Starting a secondary game without him isn't a bad option and if someone else feels comfortable DMing it could even be a nice break for you from DMing.

Laura said Sara doesn't really like her either, and that if Sara had her way, it would be just her and George. So I don't know how well that would work.

[tensai_oni]

Let me start by saying that half the names of people involved remind me of a game I played. It is a surreal experience.

It is obvious Sara is the problem player. If she doesn't want to play with Frank, someone that no one else has issues with, then she doesn't have to - she is free to leave. And if there is a risk she will flip out, explode or otherwise act unreasonably, then you have even less of a reason to keep her in the group.

I think it's a good time to mention the Social Fallacies of Geekdom. Because I think they apply here.

[Belril Duskwalk]

Laura said Sara doesn't really like her either, and that if Sara had her way, it would be just her and George. So I don't know how well that would work.

Somehow I skimmed over that part. New plan: Either use Jade's plan, or just skip the discussion and go straight to the 'Good bye Sara' that seems more or less inevitable.

[Dr. Yes]

Honestly, it seems like the situation is going to work itself out without you having to do anything. If Frank and Joan keep coming, Sara will either ragequit or step back in line. You win either way.

[Laura Eternata]

I think it's a good time to mention the Social Fallacies of Geekdom. Because I think they apply here.

It is downright scary how accurate those are.

I really do wish we could just kick Sara out. The person she's turned into over the past six months or so is a far cry from the girl I met in grade school, but the rest of our friends (George and Joan, at least) are loath to give up on repairing the friendship, and are firmly against that particular course of action. (We talked about it not 20 minutes ago, as per Jade's recommendation. At least we all acknowledge that there's a problem now and can try to work together to fix this mess.)

Sara won't willingly leave. She's going to (and has been for the past 24 hours) fighting with everything she's got to get Frank banned. Belril's idea of a second game entirely might work, though; I doubt even Sara would begrudge us playing without her sometimes as long as we still have our biweekly games, just the three of us. I'll suggest that tomorrow after class.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Honestly, it seems like the situation is going to work itself out without you having to do anything. If Frank and Joan keep coming, Sara will either ragequit or step back in line. You win either way.

I think that Sara will eventually issue an ultimatum. Either she goes or Frank goes. If she does, you will have the perfect opportunity.

[Grelna the Blue]

I don't have much to add, except to ask if you have asked whether there is anything beyond clashing personalities at work here. If they don't get along IRL, there is no requirement that they have to roleplay their PCs as good friends. A few in character snippy remarks per session could conceivably take the edge off the tension. They might even be fun, if kept in character. However, if Frank and Sara have a history of serious clashes outside the game and/or if Sara feels she has legitimate reason to feel emnity (not just annoyance) toward him, then it's going to have to be one or the other of them.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Sounds like there might be a whole lot more going on with Sara and in her life than her just not liking Frank. I'm not sure how or if it would help the game, but it is possible she's using it as an outlet for whatever else is going on in her life right now. Try to find out whats up with her and what's going on...

[big teej]

(Damn 503 errors… I had a veritable essay written out. Here’s the slimmed down version :)

Thing is, Sara isn't the most... reasonable person I know, and she might consider even the suggestion of the rest of us playing without her a betrayal. Besides, she and Joan are close friends, and I think Joan wouldn't be comfortable being the indirect cause of Sara getting kicked out.

Here's how things stand, for clarification:
-Sara really doesn't like Frank. A quote from her, lifted from a facebook post: "He just makes me crazy. Just everything about him sends me over the edge. I'm not crazy about him generally, as I believe we've covered already. D&D is a nice break from him. I don't wanna do it again."
-Sara and Joan are close friends.
-George is everyone's friend, but he admits that Sara has been getting worse lately.
-Joan and Frank are romantically involved, so they're a box set.
-Sara doesn't like me very much, nor do I care for her.

As to how much say Sara has... she THINKS she has a great deal. She feels that her seniority should allow her to veto Frank from playing, and a straight out, "It doesn't work that way" is likely to send her over the edge.

this looks fairly clear cut to me, but I could be mis-interpreting this (I'm distracted, in class)

but it sounds like Sara is the only problem.



if nothing else, look at it this way "who is causing the most trouble"

lose said individual

[NinjaStylerobot]

Try the "Thank you for being so kind" argument.

As sarcasticaly show the person how difficult they are being. They might get angry at that at first, but they will except it later.

[Jornophelanthas]

Sara won't willingly leave. She's going to (and has been for the past 24 hours) fighting with everything she's got to get Frank banned. Belril's idea of a second game entirely might work, though; I doubt even Sara would begrudge us playing without her sometimes as long as we still have our biweekly games, just the three of us. I'll suggest that tomorrow after class.

If you propose the second game, perhaps the following arguments could help you sell the idea to Sara:

1. You, George and Joan all have no problem at all with Frank's presence, and Frank has no problem with Sara's presence. Banning Frank on a single person's veto would be unfair to Frank, regardless of any friendships.

2. The second game is a way to give everyone what they want: Frank gets to play, and Sara gets to play without Frank. If not playing with Frank is really important to Sara, she should also be willing to sacrifice some (but not all) of her game time for it. Tell her that you and George would be happy to accommodate a biweekly game with just the three of you.

3. If Sara seems actively spiteful towards Frank, point out that Frank gets to play only half the time under the two-game solution. Perhaps the argument that Frank doesn't get everything he wants (i.e. to play every week) will mollify her. You know Sara well enough to judge whether this argument will work on her.

4. Sara is always welcome to join the game that also includes Frank, if she wants to. Frank will never be allowed to join the second non-Frank game, unless all players (including Sara) grant permission for that. (Use this argument to point out that Sara gets more out of the deal than Frank does, if she demands that her seniority should count for something.)

Some of these arguments are rather petty, but if Sara is a petty person, they might work. (She sounds that way to me from the description, but I am not qualified to make any real judgment about her anyway.)

---edited to add:
Finally, I second the opinion that something more is going on with Sara, as evidenced by the Facebook quote. It sounds like she is under significant stress and is likely using the roleplaying game as an outlet for that stress.
It could well be that her unwinding is affecting the enjoyment of the others, but until that happens, it should not be a big deal for you, the DM.

One thing you could do, though, is to ask Joan or George (or another closer friend of Sara's) if everything is alright with Sara, since you noticed a significant change in her behaviour lately. That way, if there really is a stress factor in Sara's life, you'll know about it and be able to treat her accordingly during the game.

[kyoryu]

Meh, I'd approach things from a slightly different angle.

Focus on behavior. The fact that Sara doesn't "like" Frank is irrelevant. Ask her what behaviors of his she cannot tolerate.

Similarly, explain what behaviors of hers will, and will not be tolerated.

She is free to come to the game, or not. If she cannot abide by the "rules," she will be asked to leave. Similarly, if Frank cannot abide by the "rules," he will be asked to leave (based on your descriptions, the latter is unlikely, but it helps to reinforce the idea that behavior is being targetted, not individuals).

Stand your ground, and stand firm. "We are inviting Frank. The group, as a whole, wants him here. You do not have a veto. Whatever problems exist between the two of you, please do not bring them to the game. We will be telling him the same thing." Not open for debate or discussion. Not attacking or insulting Sara, either.

Again, focus on *behavior* rather than *opinions* of the people involved. If Sara continues to be a problem, make sure you let her know that *Sara* is more than welcome to the game - however, certain *behaviors* are not.

[tahu88810]

Threads like this make me wonder, sometimes, why there has yet to be a tabletop RPG called "Armchair Psychology d20" or "OGL Guidance Counselor" or something similar

[RandomNPC]

The way I see it, there's one answer. I'm odd like that though.

Sara is asking you to pick between friends. What kind of friend asks you to do that? Bye Sara.

After trying to work things out and getting nowhere I'd pull it on her outa the blue with no takebacks on the grounds that you tried to work things out first.

Now if your friends are going to give you a big OMGWTFBBQ! over it, you may have to make a judgement call on that.

You've also mentioned a few relationships, maybe Sara is uncomfortable in front of Frank but wants to start something with you or George?

[Laura Eternata]

Guys... I wish it was a simple as telling her to deal with it or get out, I really do, but Joan and George are too close to her to let a this dispute get in the way of their friendship with her (which it would. Petty, as Jorn put it, is a perfect way to describe Sara as of late, and her case of GSF 2 would cause her to look at it as a stab in the back.)

Sounds like there might be a whole lot more going on with Sara and in her life than her just not liking Frank. I'm not sure how or if it would help the game, but it is possible she's using it as an outlet for whatever else is going on in her life right now. Try to find out whats up with her and what's going on...

That not a bad idea. I haven't seen much of her this year outside of D&D sessions for a few months, so I honestly haven't a clue what's going on in her own life. If I can, I'll talk to Joan one on one when I see her tomorrow about it. If anyone knows about what's going on with Sara, she will.

I talked to Sara today (though I didn't ask her about her personal life, as the idea hadn't occurred to me.) She was just as adamant about her position as she was yesterday, but was at least willing to hear me out about running two separate games. She's not happy - I hardly expected her to be - but, in her words, she "can't do **** to stop us". I have a feeling the next few sessions won't be the most pleasant experiences of our lives, but at least she's willing to play along for now. And if she does try to stop us from doing the separate sessions at any point, I doubt even George and Joan will be willing to put up with her any more.

EDIT: Swordsaged a couple times.

Sara is asking you to pick between friends. What kind of friend asks you to do that? Bye Sara.

After trying to work things out and getting nowhere I'd pull it on her outa the blue with no takebacks on the grounds that you tried to work things out first.

Now if your friends are going to give you a big OMGWTFBBQ! over it, you may have to make a judgement call on that.

You've also mentioned a few relationships, maybe Sara is uncomfortable in front of Frank but wants to start something with you or George?

I sort of agree with you, but as you said, George and Joan don't. They're more sentimental than I am, and want to do all within their power to keep all friendships intact through this affair. As for relationships, George is still with Lilly, and as far as I know Sara's straight, so I'm pretty sure she's not interested in me.

Threads like this make me wonder, sometimes, why there has yet to be a tabletop RPG called "Armchair Psychology d20" or "OGL Guidance Counselor" or something similar

I know, this is the second one this week... Weren't things were supposed to get simpler after high school?

[kyoryu]

Guys... I wish it was a simple as telling her to deal with it or get out, I really do, but Joan and George are too close to her to let a this dispute get in the way of their friendship with her (which it would. Petty, as Jorn put it, is a perfect way to describe Sara as of late, and her case of GSF 2 would cause her to look at it as a stab in the back.)

Then maybe you need to sit down with Joan and George and ask them what they want. Let it be a group decision.

[graymagiker]

Then maybe you need to sit down with Joan and George and ask them what they want. Let it be a group decision.

This is the only clear path forward. I recommend incorporating this advice with kyoryu's other advice:

Stand your ground, and stand firm. "We are inviting Frank. The group, as a whole, wants him here. You do not have a veto. Whatever problems exist between the two of you, please do not bring them to the game. We will be telling him the same thing."

focus on *behavior* rather than *opinions* of the people involved.

I would also make clear to Joan and George that having this conversation with Sara about specific behaviors in no way expresses that Sara is not your friend, or not their friend. In fact, it is because Sara is, and will remain, your friend that you must have this conversation. It goes without saying that this should be made clear to Sara as well, in as tactful a way as possible.

I wish it was a simple as telling her to deal with it or get out

I am afraid it is that simple, and that hard. It needs to be made clear that one person does not get veto power in the group, except over themselves.

It may be that this ends the game, if Joan and George will not show up if Sara quits because you won't ban Frank. IMO this is preferable to allowing one player to unilaterally banning another player because: I just don't like anything about him. If an amiable solution cannot be worked out eg: Sara won't play with Frank, Joan won't play without Frank, Joan won't play without Sara, ect; you're only solution may be to cancel the game. It sucks, but as you say it might be preferable to ending friendships.

Also note that at this point, there may be nothing you to can do to keep all your friendships intact. If you ban Frank he might be pissed, or if you split the game then he might rightly be pissed as well because he didn't do anything and has no problem with Sara. If you don't ban frank, it sounds like Sara will be upset regardless. This sucks, but if you realize that you have no real control on how people may react it will get easier.

---

1
Here is what I consider a reasonable approach:

1. Have everyone agree to come to the next gaming session, and promise they will get a chance to air their issues. This avoids the possibility of being accused of talking behind peoples backs, and allows everyone input. It also shows, rather than stating, that everyone is on equal footing. Be clear that the GM does not get extra authority beyond a member of the group in this discussion.
2. Have a discussion with the goal of setting acceptable, and unacceptable, behavior while at game. The goal is to get a group, as large as possible, to agree to a common ground to come together and have a game. Like kyoryu said, be clear that only behaviors maybe discussed as acceptable or unacceptable. Specify if one incident will be enough to get someone banned, or if it takes three strikes or some other number of infractions. This could be different for different rules.
3. Based on this discussion: either have a short gaming session within the established ground rules; or everyone agrees to disagree about a game and leaves. Make it clear that anyone violating the ground rules will be kicked out. Also make it clear that this doesn't make them not a friend. People can choose to believe or not believe that last statement, but make it as clear and sincere as possible; the rest is their choice.
4. Agree to have all other game sessions under the agreed to rules. Be sure to re-evaluate the rules periodically. Make it clear that only a consensus can change them.
5. Hope for the best.

I think this may be your best shot, to talk to the group as a whole and try and work it out. This is likely to upset Sara, because she may object to you telling Frank in front of everyone that she wants to ban him. This is also likely to upset Frank, as he might be upset that someone objects to his mere presence at game. It may also upset Joan and George because they feel like they are being forced to choose friends.

For Sara: She said what she said. She has to be responsible for that. She may not like it. She may wish to forget it and allow Frank to come to game. She may wish to apologize. All are fine. The fact is she could have no objection to you breaking her confidence, because you would have to do that to ban Frank anyway.

For Frank: Assure him that as long as he has fun, and can follow rules of specific behavior that all agree on, he is welcome in your game. Not much else, but just be a good friend regardless of what happens regarding game.

For all others: Let them know that this is a group of friends, and that by coming to a consensus as equals everyone is respected. Again, vow to remain friends no mater what happens; possibly hanging out in smaller groups that all get along.

---

1

Sorry for the long-winded armchair psychology. Feel free to ignore it if you think it is bogus; it's ok I am not a real psychologist and I won't take it personally.

[TriForce]

Guys... I wish it was a simple as telling her to deal with it or get out, I really do, but Joan and George are too close to her to let a this dispute get in the way of their friendship with her (which it would. Petty, as Jorn put it, is a perfect way to describe Sara as of late, and her case of GSF 2 would cause her to look at it as a stab in the back.)

i am going to have to respectfully disagree with you here.

it really is as simple as telling her : "frank has done nothing wrong, and thus there is no reason not to invite him"

becouse, lets be honest here. what IS she going to do about it?

not come anymore? problem solved, and no friendships ruined since it was her own decision.

be disruptive in the game? fine, it will be annoying, but she will just be digging a deeper and deeper hole for herself until the rest tells her to get out. even the most sympatethic people have a point at wich they have enough, and i suspect it wont take more then a session or 3 before the problem solves itself

sulk but still keep playing? fine, problem solved too, she might not like it, but if it doesnt hinder the rest, thats not your problem.

[kyoryu]

i am going to have to respectfully disagree with you here.

it really is as simple as telling her : "frank has done nothing wrong, and thus there is no reason not to invite him"

becouse, lets be honest here. what IS she going to do about it?

not come anymore? problem solved, and no friendships ruined since it was her own decision.

be disruptive in the game? fine, it will be annoying, but she will just be digging a deeper and deeper hole for herself until the rest tells her to get out. even the most sympatethic people have a point at wich they have enough, and i suspect it wont take more then a session or 3 before the problem solves itself

sulk but still keep playing? fine, problem solved too, she might not like it, but if it doesnt hinder the rest, thats not your problem.

To add on to this, let me just say one thing:

Sara is a bully. I realize that this probably doesn't jibe with your opinion of her. But - she is using threates to get her way, trying to force people into behavior patterns that they don't want to engage in for fear of retaliation.

That's what bullies do. It just so happens that her methods of doing this are social rather than physical.

Her not wanting Frank at the game she's playing at? Understandable, to an extent. Saying "if he plays, I won't" is reasonable, and her choice. However, threatening retaliation if you, Frank, and others play without her? Flat-out bullying, controlling behavior.

Note the differences here.

"Frank can't come back." : Not her choice. Asserting control over your entire group, which isn't cool.
"If Frank plays, I won't come back." : Her choice, and your choice on how to respond. She does get her choice in this matter. While you may think it's silly, she's simply outlining what she will do, and what her reaction will be, without making threats.
"If you and Frank and others play together at some other time, I'm going to make your lives miserable." : WTF?

Another thing to do might be to ask WHY she doesn't want Frank at the game. There may be some reason. If it's just "I don't like him," again, try to steer towards understanding what of Frank's BEHAVIORS she doesn't like. If it's "he always pushes his way into the center of the spotlight, and I feel like I'm not playing any more," then there's ways to deal with that. There's a root of this conflict somewhere, and understanding it may help you to deal with it.

I would also make clear to Joan and George that having this conversation with Sara about specific behaviors in no way expresses that Sara is not your friend, or not their friend. In fact, it is because Sara is, and will remain, your friend that you must have this conversation.

Should have been more clear on this. This is the entire point of separating the behaviors from the person - to make it clear that any statement of unacceptable behavior is not a rejection of the person, both to them and to any of their friends.

Other things to do with the "behavior" speech:
1) Make sure that they have a way to explain what behaviors they don't like in others (which meshes nicely with "what's her problem with Frank", above).
2) Make sure that with the behavior, you explain you're looking for an improvement, not 100%, and so long as the improvement is there, that's all anyone can ask. Everyone slips up, you're not looking for perfection. You are looking for an effort.
3) Offer to help her improve the behavior. Make it a team thing.

[Laura Eternata]

i am going to have to respectfully disagree with you here.

it really is as simple as telling her : "frank has done nothing wrong, and thus there is no reason not to invite him"

becouse, lets be honest here. what IS she going to do about it?

George and I tried saying that on Sunday. She... wasn't receptive. That's when she said that her seniority should allow her to ban whoever she likes. George wanted to avoid conflict as much as possible, so he pretty much backed off at that point.

Sara is a bully. I realize that this probably doesn't jibe with your opinion of her. But - she is using threates to get her way, trying to force people into behavior patterns that they don't want to engage in for fear of retaliation.

Yeah, I can agree with that. Even Joan - who I just showed this thread, for better or for worse - agrees. But she's still not really willing to do anything that could compromise her friendships with both Sara and Frank.

Speaking of my conversation with Joan, she... told me a few things. Some of them she made me promise not to share, but this much I'm allowed to say: Sara is currently seeing a therapist at least twice a week, and is exhibiting signs of chronic depression (as defined here.) She probably is using roleplaying as an outlet for this, and likely considers Frank's induction - someone who she didn't like that much to begin with - to be a threat to the security she feels while playing. This is further supported by another Facebook post: among other things, it said "if the rest of our sessions are gonna be like that I'm not gonna get anything out of them." (This is purely conjecture based on a quarter of a semester of Psych 101 and what Joan told me. I have no idea if that's an accurate diagnosis.)

I would also make clear to Joan and George that having this conversation with Sara about specific behaviors in no way expresses that Sara is not your friend, or not their friend. In fact, it is because Sara is, and will remain, your friend that you must have this conversation.

This would be fantastic if they would agree to it. Joan's reluctant, but this thread and our research have opened her eyes to the possible gravity of the situation, and she realizes that letting Sara get her way won't necessarily help her any.

Other things to do with the "behavior" speech:
1) Make sure that they have a way to explain what behaviors they don't like in others (which meshes nicely with "what's her problem with Frank", above).
2) Make sure that with the behavior, you explain you're looking for an improvement, not 100%, and so long as the improvement is there, that's all anyone can ask. Everyone slips up, you're not looking for perfection. You are looking for an effort.
3) Offer to help her improve the behavior. Make it a team thing.

1) We did ask her what her problem is with Frank (I thought I said that, but looking back it seems I forgot to put that into my second second post.) She said she doesn't even know; he just makes her "head explode".
2) Good idea.
3) That one I'm not so sure about. As I said, she isn't really a close friend of Frank and mine anymore, so I honestly doubt she'd be willing to accept help. She's always been the type to bottle things up, too, so I don't even know if she'd be open to Joan and George's help.

[kyoryu]

3) That one I'm not so sure about. As I said, she isn't really a close friend of Frank and mine anymore, so I honestly doubt she'd be willing to accept help. She's always been the type to bottle things up, too, so I don't even know if she'd be open to Joan and George's help.

It can be as minor as "if we see you starting to slip towards the undesirable behavior, we'll give you a small signal, before it gets out of control." The real point is to position yourself as an ally rather than an opponent.

[TriForce]

George and I tried saying that on Sunday. She... wasn't receptive. That's when she said that her seniority should allow her to ban whoever she likes. George wanted to avoid conflict as much as possible, so he pretty much backed off at that point.

again, thats no problem. just keep inviting frank and ignore her protests. the issue WILL solve itself

Yeah, I can agree with that. Even Joan - who I just showed this thread, for better or for worse - agrees. But she's still not really willing to do anything that could compromise her friendships with both Sara and Frank.

Speaking of my conversation with Joan, she... told me a few things. Some of them she made me promise not to share, but this much I'm allowed to say: Sara is currently seeing a therapist at least twice a week, and is exhibiting signs of chronic depression (as defined here.) She probably is using roleplaying as an outlet for this, and likely considers Frank's induction - someone who she didn't like that much to begin with - to be a threat to the security she feels while playing. This is further supported by another Facebook post: among other things, it said "if the rest of our sessions are gonna be like that I'm not gonna get anything out of them." (This is purely conjecture based on a quarter of a semester of Psych 101 and what Joan told me. I have no idea if that's an accurate diagnosis.)

while your intentions are good, you must realize you are not her therapist, and have no responcibility towards her, no matter how bad it is with her, and joan isnt either. dont put up with her bullying simply becouse she uses it as a outlet. this might sound harsh, but whatever reason she needs therapy for isnt your problem and you shouldnt chance the way you act towards her becouse of it. if you cant tolerate something from a "normal" person, dont tolerate it from her either (note: im not saying she is mentally ill, im just using the word "normal" to accentuate the difference in situation)

adjusting yourself and others becouse of her problems wont help her. in the worste case it will even harm her becouse it will show her that with that kind of behaviour, she will get what she wants. i still think that not listening to her "demands" will be the best option for everyone, including her

[Beowulf DW]

adjusting yourself and others becouse of her problems wont help her. in the worste case it will even harm her becouse it will show her that with that kind of behaviour, she will get what she wants. i still think that not listening to her "demands" will be the best option for everyone, including her

I've almost recovered from a bout with depression myself, and I agree that the faster someone realizes that being that way doesn't do any good at all, the faster that someone recovers.

Make sure you're not being mean about it, though. Take a "tough love" stance on it.