Legend Thread 2: This Game Is Not Left Handed

[Hiro Protagonest]

But a lot of them seem like they get magical abilities, that's not what this archetype's about. It's about being an ordinary, plain, nothing-special-about-them-whatsoever mortal.

Since when does barbarian get magical abilities?

Also, you're not rank-and-file past level 1, maybe level 2.

[Answerer]

But a lot of them seem like they get magical abilities, that's not what this archetype's about. It's about being an ordinary, plain, nothing-special-about-them-whatsoever mortal.

Like 3.5, "plain, nothing-special-about-them-whatsoever mortal" isn't really a PC past level, say, 5. Legend is just honest about this, while 3.5 lies and pretends that it works when it doesn't.

Furthermore, as mentioned, at absolutely no point is it correct to feel in any way constrained by the names of abilities, tracks, or classes in Legend.

[Madcrafter]

But a lot of them seem like they get magical abilities, that's not what this archetype's about. It's about being an ordinary, plain, nothing-special-about-them-whatsoever mortal.

The suggested combination doesn't have any magical abilities, it just hits stuff with a weapon. And as was mentioned, playing at a very low level will also help with a less magic feel.

[Lord_Gareth]

Echoing the above, with this addition: in addition to being a hero, you're a player character. You're special even if you don't know it yet. Certainly he was nothing special in his backstory, but one must ask this question: if there really is nothing special about the character, why are they Marcus Samuellson and not 'Mangled Corpse 53 - Decapitated'?

[Chambers]

I'll chime in and agree that there needs to be a Fighter class. The Knight could be one of its Tracks. The Professional Soldier track focuses too much on traps to be a generic soldier, and the Iron Magi is too esoteric for a regular fighter. Those tracks are fine, but even with refluffing they don't say fighter to me.

The Fighter could have a track that focuses on improved DC's for combat maneuvers and special weapon tactics, something related to pure skill at arms. The weapon style feats in D&D would be a good source of inspiration for that.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Echoing the above, with this addition: in addition to being a hero, you're a player character. You're special even if you don't know it yet. Certainly he was nothing special in his backstory, but one must ask this question: if there really is nothing special about the character, why are they Marcus Samuellson and not 'Mangled Corpse 53 - Decapitated'

Maybe he was just lucky?

Since when does barbarian get magical abilities?

Well, from what I saw when I skimmed it, it reminded me a lot of the fluff for 4e's Barbarian: "My rage is spiritual in nature and I can call upon my ancestors and the power of the land to enhance it."

[Lord_Gareth]

Maybe he was just lucky?

Luck can be an exceptional attribute, and as he continues to survive conflicts stressful to his body, his mind, and his soul (read: adventuring) his personal power grows. He learns more advanced abilities through practice and willpower. If some of these abilities seem magical, it's because his intense training, his personal fate gravity, is telling physics precisely where to stick it. That he started from humble beginnings with no friends but Lady Fortune's crooked smile only makes the tale of his eventual transcendence more awe-inspiring to those that will never achieve such heights.

[Answerer]

Like Wizard, Fighter doesn't say enough, IMO. It's a bad thing to have something that generic. Even though Legend's classes can be used to support a staggering variety of archetypes, the relatively narrow focus of the default names (relative to the full spectrum of things that you could do with that class) indicates how specific your character is supposed to be.

If there's nothing special about you, why are you a PC?

[Chambers]

If there's nothing special about you, why are you a PC?

I dunno, maybe ask Roy that question. He's a single classed Fighter in an edition of the game when the core Fighter is well regarded as a very bad class. But he's a great character, and that's because your character isn't just your class.

[Lord_Gareth]

I dunno, maybe ask Roy that question. He's a single classed Fighter in an edition of the game when the core Fighter is well regarded as a very bad class. But he's a great character, and that's because your character isn't just your class.

It's also because Roy has the class feature "Utilize Plot-Enabling House Rules". Any game that doesn't allow tons of ad-hoc tactics of the variety he uses would see Roy dead as a doornail inside of seventy strips.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

If there's nothing special about you, why are you a PC?

What about Bilbo Baggins?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, for your average rank-and-filers, there's Mook rules that would do well for you...

[Spamotron]

So I’m trying my hand at a basic build. A dedicated sharpshooter

Spoiler

Show

Race: Human Class: Paladin Tracks: Judgment/Path of Rage/Smiting
Human Racial Bonuses: Racial Skill Bonus to Stealth, Racial Bonus to AC
Starting Stats: STR 14 CON 12 DEX 18 INT 10 WIS 10 CHA 14
Final Stats: STR 20 CON 24 DEX 26 INT 10 WIS 10 CHA 22
Feat Order: Racial: Musketeer 1st Elven War Dance 3rd Sniper 6th Arcantric Accuracy 9th Blacksmith 12th Runic Gunknight 15th The Bitter Dregs 18th Optimistic Viscera
Trained Skills: Acrobatics, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Ride, Stealth (At some point grab Prayer Beads for Bluff and Larceny)

Basic Optimization Concept: Find as many pluses to Attack Bonus as possible to sacrifice to Deadly Aim then supplement with a bunch of damage bonuses. To take advantage of being able to engage at [Extreme] range also emphasize initiative to get off as many shots as possible before opponents can close to retaliate.

Exceptional Snipers can enter a trance like state where they control their breathing and heartbeat to an amazing degree and squeeze the trigger between their own pulse for exceptional accuracy. The hyper concentration explanation of the Rage track fits perfectly. Snipers are also damn sneaky and strike without warning. Giving the Human Skill bonus to stealth fits and Elven War dance makes Dex the KOM enhancing initiative and boosting the stealth skill even further. Smiting is a damage boosting track that works with Rage’s Fury Bonuses. The charge booster from Smiting's 5th Circle Anhilation ability is a bayonet charge BTW. Whether or not to go Barbarian and multiclass into Smiting or go Paladin and multiclass into Rage (as I have) is a good question. Ultimately I decided that I liked the flavor from Judgment better for my utility track rather than Path of the Ancestors. Justifying it as a form of amazing observational prowess and hyper-awareness that just seemed to fit the Sniper theme. Also from a mechanical standpoint as a mostly ranged backline character I felt the boost to my Will Save from having Cha as my KDM was more valuable than the boost to hit points from Con as my KDM (And I get my Con pretty dang high anyway.)

So any comments?

[Lord_Gareth]

What about Bilbo Baggins?

Hobbit talents at silence and stealth, unusual cunning, a Tookish sense of adventure (exceptional for a hobbit) and a solid, uncomplicated sense of right and wrong (a good asset in a world full of black-on-black villainy).

Completely ordinary people become corpses when faced with the kinds of enemies adventurers face. Legend is not the game for that kind of thing - you want E6 if you want to be a faceless soldier that happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Only at the very lowest levels are the heroes of Legend anything close to ordinary; after that, like the demigods of Greek myth, apotheosis begins.

[Doc Roc]

Huh, I hadn't realized anyone besides Doc Roc was actually a fan of this project!

Well, I think this means I need some more people contributing to the project. Particularly all the random MM monsters ... I just don't have the energy to do all those. Other people should feel free to come up with them and post them on the thread! (Fortunately, Doc Roc counsels that it would be appropriate to stat most of the MM monsters simply as Elite Mooks.)

I pretty much have the unique "boss" monsters done except for formatting, which actually takes quite a while. The exception is Varanthian; I'm really not sure at all how to run him without Grapple rules.

EDIT: In case it wasn't clear, I'm agreeing with Ciyerin here: there is enough converted that you can start playing, and even help me figure things out along the way.

Prototype grappling rules are available on request. They've only had three review passes though.

[Lagren]

Hmm.

I think that there may be something to Zousha's comments. Certain people have been looking for a weapon master class as well.

It's a question of there being a class that is based around the concept of martial technique. Someone who, at high levels, has such economy of movement that their skill is unmatched, while still having to do business with the laws of physics.

There's a trope for this sort of thing. Being equal to people with powers without having them yourself has its own draw.

[Chambers]

I'm a little surprised and put off at the general response to the idea of a Fighter class. I think there's a place in any fantasy RPG for a warrior that fights by skill of arms, without recourse to magic or other styles of fighting (Rage, Smite, etc). I don't think that place is in the Mook section; it should be a fully playable class.

[Doc Roc]

Knight is the first step towards this. Showfighter will be the next step towards this. We'll probably do one more track after that riffing on the concept. I want to make something abundantly clear:

I do not believe in the idea that there should be a class defined by can't.

Fighter, weapons-master, warrior... When it exists, in whatever form it exists, will still have access to many of the overtly magical or wuxia elements elsewhere in the system. He or she can still get the feats that offer spell-like abilities, the skills that let you climb snow-flakes, or the items that let you punch holes in the universe.

We may eventually offer a variant game that more closely models the sword and sorcery genre people are looking to relive here. It will have to wait until after Comfortably Grim.

[Lord_Gareth]

I'm a little surprised and put off at the general response to the idea of a Fighter class. I think there's a place in any fantasy RPG for a warrior that fights by skill of arms, without recourse to magic or other styles of fighting (Rage, Smite, etc). I don't think that place is in the Mook section; it should be a fully playable class.

No, it shouldn't. And I will say it again for emphasis - no, it shouldn't. In settings with powerful, available magic, having to do truck with the laws of physics is a death sentence unless you have magical backup or an ability to ignore them yourself. Look at what happened to Sokka in Avatar: the Last Airbender; from the very start it was evident that he was less versatile than his companions, and in the end even he acknowledged that his own cunning, skills, and training were always going to be inferior to Bending (magic). In adventuring as presented in 3.5 and Legend, this is even more true, because most of the enemies are going to be magical in nature.

Having a martial focus? Yeah! Cool! Being married to the physical laws from Earth? No, not so much. If you're going to be fighting demons and dragons, you either need magic (note how in Season of the Witch a magical book was used to slay the demon) or super-human capabilities. These abilities could come from training so intense that they fall by the wayside, sure. The character can easily be said to succeed on their very own merits - but at the end of the day they're still shattering the normal expectations of banal, ordinary people. Martial characters should look like they've got Epic Attributes (Scion gameline, White Wolf), not like rank-and-file mooks.

[Doc Roc]

I'm a little surprised and put off at the general response to the idea of a Fighter class. I think there's a place in any fantasy RPG for a warrior that fights by skill of arms, without recourse to magic or other styles of fighting (Rage, Smite, etc). I don't think that place is in the Mook section; it should be a fully playable class.

I do agree. I've just never figured out the hows of that.

[Flickerdart]

I'm a little surprised and put off at the general response to the idea of a Fighter class. I think there's a place in any fantasy RPG for a warrior that fights by skill of arms, without recourse to magic or other styles of fighting (Rage, Smite, etc). I don't think that place is in the Mook section; it should be a fully playable class.

You can build a satisfactory mundane character up to maybe circle 3. After that, the scale to which Legend progresses means that you are trying to swing a sword at the physical incarnation of hating you personally - and unless you have a technique that can match this tier of foe (hint - this is not going to be a technique that obeys real world concepts) then you're dead and shouldn't worry about having to build the mundane fighter beyond that point.

[Doc Roc]

You can build a satisfactory mundane character up to maybe circle 3. After that, the scale to which Legend progresses means that you are trying to swing a sword at the physical incarnation of hating you personally - and unless you have a technique that can match this tier of foe (hint - this is not going to be a technique that obeys real world concepts) then you're dead and shouldn't worry about having to build the mundane fighter beyond that point.

Well.... I dunno. A lot of stuff gets more supernatural, but I've begun to believe that maybe there's a grey area between the natural and the supernatural that's wide enough for a "fighter" to live in.

[Draz74]

Yeah, "just a regular guy with no fantastic abilities" isn't something Legend is a good system for; not after Level 3 or so.

That said ...

Maybe he was just lucky?

So ... Rogue, who multiclasses out his default Offensive Track in favor of Path of Destruction or Heroica? (Fortune's Friend as the Defensive Track.) Sounds pretty close to a "really lucky regular man-at-arms" to me.

[Lord_Gareth]

Well.... I dunno. A lot of stuff gets more supernatural, but I've begun to believe that maybe there's a grey area between the natural and the supernatural that's wide enough for a "fighter" to live in.

Yeah, but every player draws that line in a different place. I'm willing to call swinging your sword so fast that the friction heat deals bonus fire damage 'natural'. Whenever I propose this on fighter threads people say it's 'too magical'. At what point do you lose any ability to fight real enemies?

[Chambers]

Doc Roc

Appreciate the reply. I understand you're trying to do something different with your game, and I respect that. However, I think that the number of people that ask "Where's the Fighter?" speak to wanting that kind of class in the game. That's how I felt about it. Also, thanks for making this game.

Lord_Gareth

We disagree. That's okay. It's the manner of your response that puts me off. I don't need things repeated and bolded to understand your point. It comes across as insulting and disrespectful.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

No, it shouldn't. And I will say it again for emphasis - no, it shouldn't. In settings with powerful, available magic, having to do truck with the laws of physics is a death sentence unless you have magical backup or an ability to ignore them yourself. Look at what happened to Sokka in Avatar: the Last Airbender; from the very start it was evident that he was less versatile than his companions, and in the end even he acknowledged that his own cunning, skills, and training were always going to be inferior to Bending (magic). In adventuring as presented in 3.5 and Legend, this is even more true, because most of the enemies are going to be magical in nature.

Having a martial focus? Yeah! Cool! Being married to the physical laws from Earth? No, not so much. If you're going to be fighting demons and dragons, you either need magic (note how in Season of the Witch a magical book was used to slay the demon) or super-human capabilities. These abilities could come from training so intense that they fall by the wayside, sure. The character can easily be said to succeed on their very own merits - but at the end of the day they're still shattering the normal expectations of banal, ordinary people. Martial characters should look like they've got Epic Attributes (Scion gameline, White Wolf), not like rank-and-file mooks.

Then the character stops being a common soldier and thus his whole zeitgeist is lost.

[Doc Roc]

Doc Roc

Appreciate the reply. I understand you're trying to do something different with your game, and I respect that. However, I think that the number of people that ask "Where's the Fighter?" speak to wanting that kind of class in the game. That's how I felt about it. Also, thanks for making this game.

Well I'm willing to give designing a fighter a sixth or seventh shot. When's good for us to talk in depth about what you had in your mind's eye?

[Mystify]

Refluff rage bonuses into "I'm an amazing swordsman" bonuses, powerful rage into "My footwork is so fancy I get extra reach", intimidating rage into "I am such an amazing fighter that people fear me", momentum charge into "I charge really well and get to push my foes back", stubborn rage into " My mental discipline is honed to the point of being unassailable", and heart of fury into "I am so awesome at fighting I can keep this up all day"

Cleave and whirlwing are both martial manuevers. Disrupting present is you attacking those who try to use magic, terrifying presence is exhibitng so much martial skill that your opponents are afreaid, path of blades is an expert charge where you take a pot-shot at a guy on the way by, and deadly presence is you being so awesome at fighting that they can't even be near you without you hurting them.

Its quite easy to refluff barbarian into a completely mundane character. They are mundane. All of their abilities are extraordinary. Nothing is spell-like. Nothing is supernatural.

[Lagren]

No, it shouldn't. And I will say it again for emphasis - no, it shouldn't. In settings with powerful, available magic, having to do truck with the laws of physics is a death sentence unless you have magical backup or an ability to ignore them yourself. Look at what happened to Sokka in Avatar: the Last Airbender; from the very start it was evident that he was less versatile than his companions, and in the end even he acknowledged that his own cunning, skills, and training were always going to be inferior to Bending (magic). In adventuring as presented in 3.5 and Legend, this is even more true, because most of the enemies are going to be magical in nature.

Having a martial focus? Yeah! Cool! Being married to the physical laws from Earth? No, not so much. If you're going to be fighting demons and dragons, you either need magic (note how in Season of the Witch a magical book was used to slay the demon) or super-human capabilities. These abilities could come from training so intense that they fall by the wayside, sure. The character can easily be said to succeed on their very own merits - but at the end of the day they're still shattering the normal expectations of banal, ordinary people. Martial characters should look like they've got Epic Attributes (Scion gameline, White Wolf), not like rank-and-file mooks.

Being married to the physical laws from earth? Not particularly cool. Being under that handicap and still being jaw-droppingly awesome? Much more cool. Essentially, the idea of "I trained really, really hard and now I can cut mountains in half" is absent, currently.

This sort of balance is why some systems build firearms to be equal to swords. Because while we all know that in the real world, a trained sharpshooter will kill a trained swordsman 99 times out of 100, it's much more awesome if the swordsman has a good shot at killing the sniper.

Knight is the first step towards this. Showfighter will be the next step towards this. We'll probably do one more track after that riffing on the concept. I want to make something abundantly clear:

I do not believe in the idea that there should be a class defined by can't.

Fighter, weapons-master, warrior... When it exists, in whatever form it exists, will still have access to many of the overtly magical or wuxia elements elsewhere in the system. He or she can still get the feats that offer spell-like abilities, the skills that let you climb snow-flakes, or the items that let you punch holes in the universe.

We may eventually offer a variant game that more closely models the sword and sorcery genre people are looking to relive here. It will have to wait until after Comfortably Grim.

I agree completely. But those magical options should be, well, optional. Knight and Show Fighter are very good steps towards the end of creating purely martial characters; but some people are still going to be looking for a ready-built chassis for that fightan guy who got where he is now through bitter experience, hellish training, and absolutely no magic.

[Mystify]

Then the character stops being a common soldier and thus his whole zeitgeist is lost.

So... you want an underpowered character?