Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 82
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Knifie_Sp00nie
    Guest in the Playground

    Default Does the fighter need fixing?

    I've seen a lot about the fighter being underpowered. Is it true? I haven't seen a straight figter in a 3.0/3.5 game yet, so I have no first-hand experience, but I might play one next game.

    I've seen reasoning that they are fine, just the power curve favors the fighter in the early levels and then tapers off. Some say that they can max out a feat tree and are then stuck with little effective selection. Is this just an issue for people that play with the core books only? I tend to play with core and the complete books. Like the sorcerer thread, I'm looking at the class as a level 1-20 progression instead of jumping to a PrC.

    Is it just a matter of giving more feats? Maybe a bonus feat every level except those divisible by three? That would yeild 14 instead of 11 at level 20 (not including the regular feat at every 3rd level). Would that make it too juicy for dippers and munchkins, or is it neccessary at all?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Dhavaer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2005

    Default Re: Does the fighter need fixing?

    Fighter's don't need more feat slots, they need more powerful feats. The issue with fighters is that the ability they gain at level 20 (a feat) isn't much more powerful than what they gain at level 1 (a feat) whereas everyother class, particularly spellcasters, become powerful exponentially.
    Basically, a level 20 Fighter as about 20 times more powerful than a level 1 fighter (20 times the BAB, HP, etc) whereas a level 20 wizard is more like 400 times more powerful (cause fear vs power word: kill).
    Thanks to Veera for the avatar.

    I keep my stories in a blog. You should read them.

    5E Sorcerous Origin: Arcanist

    5E Class: Spellsword

    5E Spells: Alternate Damage Cantrips

    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by ClericofPhwarrr View Post
    Dhavaer, your ideas are like candy from the sky, sprinkled lightly with cinnamon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll View Post
    Wow. Badass without being flashy and showy, attractive while remaining classy. Bravo Dhavaer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    ...Why do I imagine you licking your lips and rubbing your hands together?

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Does the fighter need fixing?

    the class itself don't need anything, just some flexibility to make something new and diferent. you know, the fighter are not just a walking weapon. try to see some movies and adapt some cool moves and traits of the fighters.

    Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location

    Default Re: Does the fighter need fixing?

    My feeling is that with only the core books, the fighter is in need of some better feats to take at higher levels, but I haven't played one myself in some time. I have the compete warrior/adventurer and I think these two books do a great job of expanding the feat selection for them.

    Fighters, however, are excellent vehicles for PrCs, so perhaps it's just a question of making sure there are enough PrCs to interest your fighter-types, since PrCs tend to ramp up the power curve.
    It is very rude to use facts and logic against people\'s opinions. -- Valiena

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    uk

    Default Re: Does the fighter need fixing?

    extra feat tree's or extended tree's are what is needed. have to agree a really high level fighter needs no fighter feats by level 12, then you've had w-focus, w-specialization and greater focus/specialization so there is no further need for fighter levels. just throw the rest into barbarian and away you go!
    but most classes have no reason to stick to the base class to be fair. wizard/sorcerer/cleric get virtually nothing. even paladin has less need than you'd expect. most of the core classes can go Prc and get better bonuses than remaining the one class.
    i think mainly druid/ranger/monk need to stay with main class. bard/rogue is debatable depending on your personal taste.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
    if this thread is a 4e thread then play 3.5
    if this thread is a 3.5 thread then play 4e

    devils advocacy by signature

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Does the fighter need fixing?

    Sounds like Dhaevar's got it about right. All the other classes get different things as they go up in level, that seem to be more powerful than your average Fighter. Even the other martial classes.

    Barbarian: increased rage, movemenr, DR, etc
    Monks: Cease aging, beome outsiders, slow fall
    Paladins: immunity to all disease, immunity to fear, enhanced mount abilities
    Rangers: Enhancements to favored enemy, combat styles, spells, animal companion progression.
    Fighter: Feats.

    Now, the fact of the matter is that the pure fighter is one of the most terrifying melee combatants in the DnD universe due to the sheer specialization or versitility of which he is capable.

    The fighter also does have a number of "Fighter only feats" which add further flair to the class. Some people feel that the fact that the fighter's fundamental construction doesn't change implies that he is comparetively weaker than members of other classes, but in my opinion the fighter class performs exactly as it was designed and is a blast to play. If they added a few features toward the middle and end of the class, like maybe one free weapon focus, and one free improved crit, I'd bet most of those complaints would die down.

    I think I start rambling in there, since I'm trying to type in between working.
    I'm gonna torture you so long you'll think it's a career.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Does the fighter need fixing?

    too much potencial wasted in lack of cool moves... sniff :'(

    Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Shhalahr Windrider's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    By a Park
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Does the fighter need fixing?

    I'd have to say "more powerful feats" would be good. The only feats that are absolutely unobtainable by 10th level are Greater Weapon Specialization, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, and Improved Precise Shot. And all three of those can be picked up by 14th level. Come 16th level, the sorcerer gets 8th level spellsósomething that would be unbalanced before 10th level. Meanwhile, the fighter's remaining options will be feats that are balanced for 10th level.

    So c'mon. Give 'em something worth taking at 16th level! And sure, make it fighter only. That'll make it special as well as worthwhile.
    The Future just ainít what it used to be.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Somerville, MA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Does the fighter need fixing?

    By the time you've hit 20, or for that matter even 10, levels of fighter, you probably have more feats than you know what to do with. By that token, the feats you get later on are actually weaker than the first few.

    The only thing I can think of is to make some ginormous feat trees that are only accessible to high level fighters.
    If you like what I have to say, please check out my GMing Blog where I discuss writing and roleplaying in greater depth.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Mike_G's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Laughing with the sinners
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Does the fighter need fixing?

    I think that the fighter is very powerful at low level and less so at high, in the same way the wizard is weak at low level and insanely powerful at high level.

    I don't think fighters need any more class features, or number of feats, but they do benefit from new feats in the expanded books.

    Even if they have already taken the basic combat feats, there's always a benefit to a feat. I've never beleive there is such a thing as too many, or even enough, feats. You can always take Focus in an additional weapon, or start a new tree fro ranged combat once you've maxed out your melee tree. And Iron Will, Lightneing reflexes, Toughness are always good. Skill focus can do a lot for a class with so few skill points, as can feats like Alertness, Athletic, etc.

    In short, I don't think fighters are underpowered, I just think that they are very customizable, and if you only think as far as WF/WS Big Smashy Weapon, Power Attack, Cleave, and then run out of imagination, you're selling the fighter short.
    Out of wine comes truth, out of truth the vision clears, and with vision soon appears a grand design. From the grand design we can understand the world. And when you understand the world, you need a lot more wine.


  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Amotis's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Heima
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Does the fighter need fixing?

    Short Answer: No
    Long Answer: No, it doesn't.

    Kidding ;) Anyway, I have full trust in Wizards of the Coast when dealing with the PHB base classes. I may not fully understand that balance they have created, but I certainly accept it. Fighter's are balanced because Wizard's made it that way. They have strengths and weaknesses, like all the base classes. And plus, it's an easy class for newbie players to learn on(contary to the dwarven cleric every group slaps on the new guy).
    avatar by kuja.girl
    sign by egobuttz


  12. - Top - End - #12
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location

    Default Re: Does the fighter need fixing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhavaer
    Fighter's don't need more feat slots, they need more powerful feats. The issue with fighters is that the ability they gain at level 20 (a feat) isn't much more powerful than what they gain at level 1 (a feat) whereas everyother class, particularly spellcasters, become powerful exponentially.
    Basically, a level 20 Fighter as about 20 times more powerful than a level 1 fighter (20 times the BAB, HP, etc) whereas a level 20 wizard is more like 400 times more powerful (cause fear vs power word: kill).
    Is there anything wrong with that, though? A level 1 Fighter is significantly (some might say vastly) more powerful than a level 1 Wizard, so the gap at level 20 is offset by an opposing gap at level 1.

    This isn't new. Wizards have always started out weaker than Fighters and surpassed them in the mid-levels.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    North Carolina, USA

    Default Re: Does the fighter need fixing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhavaer
    Fighter's don't need more feat slots, they need more powerful feats. The issue with fighters is that the ability they gain at level 20 (a feat) isn't much more powerful than what they gain at level 1 (a feat) whereas everyother class, particularly spellcasters, become powerful exponentially.
    Basically, a level 20 Fighter as about 20 times more powerful than a level 1 fighter (20 times the BAB, HP, etc) whereas a level 20 wizard is more like 400 times more powerful (cause fear vs power word: kill).
    This analysis is flawed. For starters what measure for power are you using to make this claim? To claim that the fighter goes up linearly but the wizard exponentially is not a reaslitic assessment. Wizards do improve as they gain levels and go from being one of the weakest classes at first level to the most powerfull at high levels, but the differential is not that great as to claim linear vs. exponential. However, one could argue that is more of a problem with how wizards and magic are handled at high levels than with the fighter class.

    In regard to a 20th level wizard being "only" twenty times more powerfull that a first level fighter consider the following matchup : One 20th level fighter vs. 20 1st level fighters. The 20th level fighter will slaughter the 20 1st level fighters. Each one of the 4 attacks per round has such a huge bonus that it will strike, and the damage will kill a first level fighter. Add the cleave and great cleave feats and the fighter will kill all 1st level characters in adjacent squares each round. Assuming the first level fighters don't run away in terror after the first round, they will die very quickly.

    Fighters have one of the more balanced power progressions as they level because the relevant abilities scale linearly (This does not imply that "power" scales linearly). The only thing I've seen for measuring power is the CR rating and that is most definitely a non-linear function in terms of the number of creatures and their level (One lvl 22 character has a CR of 20, but 2 level 11 characters do NOT have a CR of 20).

    A specialist fighter type is important in any party. A pure fighter is not underpowered, in many ways it is the standard for a balanced progression vs. which the power of most other builds is measured. High level wizards are insanely buff, so saying that something is underpowered compared to them is not really saying that much.
    The Sistine Chappel, Michelangelo's David, Beethoven's Fifth, Pun-Pun - artistic wonders for the ages.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Shhalahr Windrider's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    By a Park
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Does the fighter need fixing?

    Something that just came to mind in comparing the power level of different classes: What about tracking where their wealth goes?

    Would it be fair to say that a wizard or sorcerer would need to spend his or her wealth on wands + staffs + scrolls + miscellaneous defense-related items to boost defense and so on while a fighter only really needs to focus on boosting one weapon and one set of armor? In other words, a fighter probably gets quality class-related equipment versus a magic-user's quantity. And if this is true, does it help balance them out?

    I haven't done a thorough analysis on this, but I think it's be worth considering.
    The Future just ainít what it used to be.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Dhavaer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2005

    Default Re: Does the fighter need fixing?

    A fighter with only a weapon and armour will die fairly easily due to a lack of adaptability. Also, the Wealth by level system assumes a certain amount of expenditure for consumables. The fighter buys healing potions, the wizard buys (or more likely makes) scrolls.
    Thanks to Veera for the avatar.

    I keep my stories in a blog. You should read them.

    5E Sorcerous Origin: Arcanist

    5E Class: Spellsword

    5E Spells: Alternate Damage Cantrips

    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by ClericofPhwarrr View Post
    Dhavaer, your ideas are like candy from the sky, sprinkled lightly with cinnamon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll View Post
    Wow. Badass without being flashy and showy, attractive while remaining classy. Bravo Dhavaer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    ...Why do I imagine you licking your lips and rubbing your hands together?

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Anchorage AK

    Default Re: Does the fighter need fixing?

    Fighters can go for as long as they have healing potions. Once that level 14 wizard runs out of upper level spells, he's useless.

    And when the party cleric or bard starts buffing the fighter, watch out.


    If any of the melee classes needs 'fixing,' it's the barbarian.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Dhavaer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2005

    Default Re: Does the fighter need fixing?

    Why the barbarian?
    Thanks to Veera for the avatar.

    I keep my stories in a blog. You should read them.

    5E Sorcerous Origin: Arcanist

    5E Class: Spellsword

    5E Spells: Alternate Damage Cantrips

    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by ClericofPhwarrr View Post
    Dhavaer, your ideas are like candy from the sky, sprinkled lightly with cinnamon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll View Post
    Wow. Badass without being flashy and showy, attractive while remaining classy. Bravo Dhavaer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    ...Why do I imagine you licking your lips and rubbing your hands together?

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location

    Default Re: Does the fighter need fixing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spuddly
    Fighters can go for as long as they have healing potions. Once that level 14 wizard runs out of upper level spells, he's useless.
    That's a pointless comparison. Why not say:

    Wizards can go for as long as they have level-appropriate spells. Once that Fighter runs out of healing potions, he's dead.

    Furthermore, there's hardly a need for upper-level spells in every encounter. Many encounters can be passed with judicious use of low-level spells like Grease or Obscuring Mist.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Anchorage AK

    Default Re: Does the fighter need fixing?

    Barbarians have little versatility and like 2 PrC, neither of which are very party friendly (the Forsaker[I think] and the Frenzied Berzerker).

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Dhavaer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2005

    Default Re: Does the fighter need fixing?

    Rage Mage, and Bear Warrior as well. Also combines well with Sorcerer to make a Dragon Disciple.
    Lack of versatility isn't a weakness either. Paladins and monks aren't terribly versatile. D&D tends to reward specialisation, and that's what Barbarians do. Specialise in running up an hitting thing with large axes, swords or hammers.
    Thanks to Veera for the avatar.

    I keep my stories in a blog. You should read them.

    5E Sorcerous Origin: Arcanist

    5E Class: Spellsword

    5E Spells: Alternate Damage Cantrips

    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by ClericofPhwarrr View Post
    Dhavaer, your ideas are like candy from the sky, sprinkled lightly with cinnamon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll View Post
    Wow. Badass without being flashy and showy, attractive while remaining classy. Bravo Dhavaer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    ...Why do I imagine you licking your lips and rubbing your hands together?

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    The Frozen North

    Default Re: Does the fighter need fixing?

    Wouldn't that be more of a problem with their PrCs than the barbarians themselves? Besides, the barbarian isn't really intended to be versitile and customisable; that's a fighter's job. If it wasn't for the niftiness of their d12 HD at first level I'd sugest turning them into a PrC.

    The fighter on the other hand can be turned into just about anything you want him to be. His only limitations are the feats available to your campain, and there is at least one that has broad apeal in every splatbook.

    Though I agree that the core feat trees are too short and don't branch enough. They're more like feat pillars, but shorter. Like a feat fencepost.

    Do your fighters a favor and get yourself a big book full of feats. Feats make everyone cooler.
    \"crazy\" is just a word--a relative term, even.&&Can you really say that anyone is \"crazy\"?&&*WELL? CAN YOU!?*

    This sig had italics in it way back when, but it appears this new(newer anyway I've been gone for a couple years.) software uses different tags.

    I'd fix it, but it actually looks better that way.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Caelestion's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Baator (aka Britain)
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Does the fighter need fixing?

    Two CR 11s is one EL 13 encounter, but I was under the impression that a 20th-level fighter was CR 20.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    UK

    Default Re: Does the fighter need fixing?

    A pure fighter is still one of the strongest classes in the game as long as you can get the feats to complement one another. So in that respect the class does not need fixing. You have to remember a fighter will keep his abilities to deal large amounts of damage pretty much all the time and when they are in anti magic zones. And you should never be underestimated how useful that is.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Shhalahr Windrider's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    By a Park
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Does the fighter need fixing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhavaer
    A fighter with only a weapon and armour will die fairly easily due to a lack of adaptability. Also, the Wealth by level system assumes a certain amount of expenditure for consumables. The fighter buys healing potions, the wizard buys (or more likely makes) scrolls.
    Okay, what I probably should have said is that the equipment I mentioned is the primary need of the class.

    A wizard needs spell trigger and spell completion items to increase versatility and class-ability endurance, two things the fighter already has (once again, unlimited sword swings vs. 40+bonus spell slots only). Then, the wizard needs protective wondrous items to ensure survival. Only after purchasing a boatload of wands, staves, scrolls, and protective items does the wizard get to take a chance on some of the more interesting and unique items.

    Meanwhile, the fighter only needs one weapon and one suit of armor. Then he or she can buy the icing items.

    And after the pair sees to their respective primary needs, the fighter might have more money left over to spend on those other miscellaneous items. So the fighter can perhaps afford better quality miscellaneous magic.

    Anyway, that's still just an unsubstantiated theory that hasn't even gotten so much as a thorough thought experiment to test it out. I probably need to play more super-high level adventurers to see how that really turns out.
    The Future just ainít what it used to be.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Dhavaer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2005

    Default Re: Does the fighter need fixing?

    Considering how expensive a magic weapon of any decent quality is, I'd be surprised if the fighter had much to spend at all. Wands and scrolls are comparitively cheap. They run out, sure, but they're more easily replaceable.
    Thanks to Veera for the avatar.

    I keep my stories in a blog. You should read them.

    5E Sorcerous Origin: Arcanist

    5E Class: Spellsword

    5E Spells: Alternate Damage Cantrips

    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by ClericofPhwarrr View Post
    Dhavaer, your ideas are like candy from the sky, sprinkled lightly with cinnamon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll View Post
    Wow. Badass without being flashy and showy, attractive while remaining classy. Bravo Dhavaer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    ...Why do I imagine you licking your lips and rubbing your hands together?

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    WhiteMonkey's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    San Diego, CA

    Default Re: Does the fighter need fixing?

    I play the Fighter. I like it. I've never felt useless in a fight.
    It doesn't strike me as broken.
    Thus if it's not broke, don't fix it.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2005

    Default Re: Does the fighter need fixing?

    "Underpowered only in comparison to insanely powerful high-level casters" is still underpowered in comparison. There does need to be some non-PrC goodie for high-level straight-ahead fighters.

    Maybe something along the lines of "Death Strike" (give up all attacks in a round to get a big-damage, increased-critical "lower the boom") or "Fearsome Combatant" (like a big brother to Power Attack, except each attack with the feat adds to a morale subtraction for opponents who can see the fighter - maybe make Great Cleave a prereq and call it "Amazing Cleave," where an opponent struck for enough damage is literally cloven in two).

    Possibly a "Hulk SMASH!" thing called "Destroy" (opponent who fails a Reflex save gets quite literally splattered on the floor and walls).

    "Kick A$$" (on a successful critical, you can choose to give usual critical damage or to do normal damage AND send opponent flying 10 ft/5 fighter levels, adding bludgeoning damage from getting smacked around by ground and/or wall).

    "War Machine" (every consecutive hit adds a bonus to atk and dmg for the next attack).

    I know! Make one called "Giant in the Playground" and have it be the offensive version of the Defensive Stance - you become a phenomenal weapon for destruction but become winded at the end of a certain time.
    Shecky

    True Neutral: "... does what seems to be a good idea at the time..."

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Does the fighter need fixing?

    Although I personally would probably switch to a prestige class above lv 10 I donít think the fighter significantly underpowered,
    The only thing to be careful of is that because of the limited feats a lv20 fighter using only the PhB is going to be a lot weaker than one using feats from some other handbooks and a fighter splat book

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    UK

    Default Re: Does the fighter need fixing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhavaer
    Considering how expensive a magic weapon of any decent quality is, I'd be surprised if the fighter had much to spend at all. Wands and scrolls are comparitively cheap. They run out, sure, but they're more easily replaceable.
    How many high level fighter buy there magic weapons and armour most just acquire through the various adventures they go on.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    North Carolina, USA

    Default Re: Does the fighter need fixing?

    The fighter needs protective and random woundrous items as much as the wizard.

    The wizard does not need tons of staves or wands, though some backup scrolls are always nice. Given the expense of these items the wizard will only use them on rare ocassions, and if a battle is still undecided after using up most of the spell slots, odds are that retreat is not such a bad idea. Once my wizard has skewed the odds in a battle enough he will literally do nothing and let the tanks finish up their job. Why waste spells or charges when the fighters have it under control?

    More spells known implies more power. A wizard will judiciously spend GP to acquire spells from scrolls and use the rest on items. Sticking to WBL the caster and fighter will have similar amounts of magical items, because what the caster has sunken into scrolls and focuses the fighter will have spent on his armor and main weapon.
    The Sistine Chappel, Michelangelo's David, Beethoven's Fifth, Pun-Pun - artistic wonders for the ages.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •