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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Dweomerkeeper build help

    So I'm making a character for a Dragonlance (meh) campaign, and want to build a Dweomerkeeper, probably a Human Cloistered Cleric of Gillean, with the Knowledge, Travel, and Magic domains. Unfortunately, I never even looked at Dweomerkeeper until I downloaded the Complete Divine web supplement stuff earlier this week. We start at 3rd level, 32 point buy. DM is amenable to modest amounts of fondue (DMM is cool, but Nightsticks don't stack), so I want something powerful without abusing things (ie: I probably won't do stuff like cast Miracle as a SU ability or whatever, if this campaign even makes it that far). Primary focus will be on divine casting function, with a modest utility capacity (party doesn't seem to be seriously optimized; so far there is a monk and a warlock). I'm flexible on pretty much every aspect of this character, but I want to remain appropriate to my intended flavor. Last issue: we're playing during a period (War of the Lance, about 70ish years before the Age Of Mortals) where the gods have left Krynn. Thus, divine stuff (feats/spells/potions/etc.) won't work for the first few sessions, though the DM has sworn that divine effects will return early on in the game; after all, rediscovering the gods is kind of our whole quest. The DM has yet to get back to me on retraining (I contend that starting as a divine-less cleric would be rough, and it makes narrative sense to retrain once my character "gets religion"), but for no assume no retraining option.

    Can the mighty minds of the GitP/OotS forums employ their charop mojo and assist me in a build?

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dweomerkeeper build help

    If you're able to use a FR-specific prestige class, can you use FR-specific feats as well? If so, get Magical Training (PGtF) to meet the arcane casting prerequisite of Dweomerkeeper, and get Servant of the Fallen (LEoF) to get around the current and any future lack of deities. Also be sure to pick up Initiate of Mystra (PGtF) at some point if possible, though it's typically delayed until around 9th level.

    If you can use flaws, use one of the elf races, and later on you can (Su) Dark Chaos Shuffle your four racial marital weapon proficiency feats into four Extra Turning feats to power DMM: Persist. If you're doing this, you should also spend some starting gold on one or more bonus feats from visiting the special locations detailed in Complete Scoundrel, which can also be Dark Chaos Shuffled to something more useful.

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    Default Re: Dweomerkeeper build help

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    If you're able to use a FR-specific prestige class, can you use FR-specific feats as well? If so, get Magical Training (PGtF) to meet the arcane casting prerequisite of Dweomerkeeper, and get Servant of the Fallen (LEoF) to get around the current and any future lack of deities. Also be sure to pick up Initiate of Mystra (PGtF) at some point if possible, though it's typically delayed until around 9th level.

    If you can use flaws, use one of the elf races, and later on you can (Su) Dark Chaos Shuffle your four racial marital weapon proficiency feats into four Extra Turning feats to power DMM: Persist. If you're doing this, you should also spend some starting gold on one or more bonus feats from visiting the special locations detailed in Complete Scoundrel, which can also be Dark Chaos Shuffled to something more useful.
    Dweomerkeeper isn't FR specific IIRC, it's in the CD bonus web material. As for the feats, I suspect I can use something as innocuous as Magical Training to circumvent the pre-req, and it would be flavor appropriate. Not sure if Initiate of Mystra would be allowed, nor do I know whether or not the CS feat locations are available either. I've never heard of Dark Chaos Shuffle, which book is that from? Which book is LEoF?

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dweomerkeeper build help

    Dweomerkeeper was originally printed in Faiths and Pantheons, a Forgotten Realms book, and was only available to worshipers of Mystra. I guess they did scrub out the setting-specific bits when they put it in the web enhancement.

    LEoF is Lost Empires of Faerun.

    The Dark Chaos Shuffle is the use of two spells from Fiendish Codex I, Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos, both Cleric/Sorcerer/Wizard 8. Embrace the Dark Chaos (Transmutation (Chaotic)) trades any one feat you have for any one Abyssal Heritor feat you qualify for, found in that book. Shun the Dark Chaos (Abjuration) trades any one Abyssal Heritor feat you have for any feat you want that you currently qualify for. Each spell costs 250 XP to cast, so for two 8th level spells and 500 XP (or none if you make them Su) you can trade any feat you've got for any other feat you qualify for. It's extremely cheesy, and your alignment is liable to shift toward Chaotic, but the benefit is rather extreme.

    Plus going with an Elf race will allow you to dip Seeker of the Misty Isle for the Travel domain. You can dip Ruathar in Races of the Wild to get Survival as a class skill and qualify for that without delaying your spellcasting.

    It's pretty standard for a Dweomerkeeper to start with the Rune domain to get Scribe Scroll, so you can meet the item creation feat prerequisite without any additional effort. You should also use a Contemplative dip to get the Spell domain, and put Limited Wish on your Mantle of Spells.

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    Default Re: Dweomerkeeper build help

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    Dweomerkeeper was originally printed in Faiths and Pantheons, a Forgotten Realms book, and was only available to worshipers of Mystra. I guess they did scrub out the setting-specific bits when they put it in the web enhancement.

    LEoF is Lost Empires of Faerun.

    The Dark Chaos Shuffle is the use of two spells from Fiendish Codex I, Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos, both Cleric/Sorcerer/Wizard 8. Embrace the Dark Chaos (Transmutation (Chaotic)) trades any one feat you have for any one Abyssal Heritor feat you qualify for, found in that book. Shun the Dark Chaos (Abjuration) trades any one Abyssal Heritor feat you have for any feat you want that you currently qualify for. Each spell costs 250 XP to cast, so for two 8th level spells and 500 XP (or none if you make them Su) you can trade any feat you've got for any other feat you qualify for. It's extremely cheesy, and your alignment is liable to shift toward Chaotic, but the benefit is rather extreme.

    Plus going with an Elf race will allow you to dip Seeker of the Misty Isle for the Travel domain. You can dip Ruathar in Races of the Wild to get Survival as a class skill and qualify for that without delaying your spellcasting.

    It's pretty standard for a Dweomerkeeper to start with the Rune domain to get Scribe Scroll, so you can meet the item creation feat prerequisite without any additional effort. You should also use a Contemplative dip to get the Spell domain, and put Limited Wish on your Mantle of Spells.
    All cool ideas, though I'm unsure of how far ahead I should be planning. We're only focused on 3rd level, at the moment. Rune domain is a nice idea, and fits in well with my intended flavor. Is Elf really worth it? Every cleric handbook I read seems to shun elves, and the popularity of human bonus feats is huge. I guess I could go ranged combatant early on, but that might modify the intended flavor of the character.

    Speaking of feats, what should I take? I'm thinking Extend as a pre-req for Persist. Rune domain takes care of Scribe scroll. What else? Divine Spell power? Suggestions are welcome.

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    Default Re: Dweomerkeeper build help

    The reason for Elf is that the way the Elf proficiency is worded, they gain something like 4 bonus feats from it, so that is 4 more feats for you to pick from. Also, the various elf-subraces can have some decent stat mods.

    Relevant Quote:
    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Death View Post
    Elf Traits (Ex)
    Elves possess the following racial traits...Weapon Proficiency: Elves are automatically proficient with the longsword, rapier, longbow, composite longbow, shortbow, and composite shortbow.
    Edit: Was right the first time, it 4 feats, not 6.
    Last edited by Demon of Death; 2012-02-14 at 12:55 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Mad_Linguist View Post
    If you PaO it into something else, you couldn't really expect it to still work (after all, a +1 flaming sword PaOed into a horse doesn't get you a +1 Flaming horse).
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunhaven
    I'm bringing this up and hoping that the DM lets me get away with a +1 Flaming Horse. Just putting that out there.

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    Default Re: Dweomerkeeper build help

    Fair enough, but I'm not entirely sure my DM will let me get away with this. I'd prefer not to break the game. I'll already likely outshine the other players, so I'd rather not walk in and go, "I switch my feats at will whilst casting free wish spells in my AMF! Monk go and... use your slow fall class feature so as to not hurt yourself when passing out from my awesomenes."

    Something simple, maybe even akin to what the designers might have intended, but able to crank it up to 11 if the DM decides to throw us a curveball.

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    Default Re: Dweomerkeeper build help

    Quote Originally Posted by Postmodernist View Post
    I'd rather not walk in and go, "I switch my feats at will whilst casting free wish spells in my AMF! Monk go and... use your slow fall class feature so as to not hurt yourself when passing out from my awesomenes."
    Mind if I sig this?

    Ontopic (A bit at least): I do agree and understand about your reservations in regards to 4 feats for being an elf. (Maybe it's the designers way of helping to make up for the Elf )

    I was just answering your question as to why an Elf, at least what I though Biffoniacus_Furiou was meaning.
    Last edited by Demon of Death; 2012-02-14 at 01:13 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Mad_Linguist View Post
    If you PaO it into something else, you couldn't really expect it to still work (after all, a +1 flaming sword PaOed into a horse doesn't get you a +1 Flaming horse).
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunhaven
    I'm bringing this up and hoping that the DM lets me get away with a +1 Flaming Horse. Just putting that out there.

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    Default Re: Dweomerkeeper build help

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Death View Post
    Mind if I sig this?
    Not in the slightest. Your explanation is appreciated and understood, I just want to build something that won't overshadow everyone else and/or break the game.

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    Default Re: Dweomerkeeper build help

    Thoughts on tentative build, all things subject to revision:

    Human
    Cloistered Cleric of Gillean3 (Domains: Rune, Knowledge, Magic) LN
    Str: 14 Dex: 8 Con 14: Int: 12 Wis: 16 Cha: 14
    Feats: Extend Spell (Human bonus), Scribe Scroll (Rune Domain), Magical Training (CC 1, to satisfy Dweomerkeeper pre-reqs), Spare Feat (Persist? CC 3)
    Skills: Take usual stuff, making sure to buff Knowledge: Arcana and Spellcraft to at least 8 ranks.

    Pros: Meets all feat pre-reqs for Dweomerkeeper at 1st level, is set to become a rockin' DMM Persisted badass without breaking the game every 3 seconds. Good skills, a few extra cool spells, bardic lore.

    Cons: Until the DM decides to have the gods return (he insists that it will be early in the game), I'm basically a warrior with useless feats. Crappy weapon and armor proficiencies, low HP, low BAB.

    The rest of the intended build would be to take CC to 5th level (I know about Church Inquisitor early entry cheese. If my DM allows this, I'll take 2 levels of it instead of continuing along in CC), followed by Dweomerkeeper for 10 levels, followed by a Contemplative dip, and finish up with Divine Oracle.

    Suggestions? Critiques? Comments about my concerns?

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dweomerkeeper build help

    Put that Contemplative dip as early as possible, after Dweomerkeeper 5. That way your Mantle of Spells 4 can be Limited Wish.

    If you're using Divine Oracle, use the Frog God's Fane detailed in Complete Scoundrel to get its Skill Focus prerequisite for 2k gp instead of spending a feat on it.

    Servant of the Fallen and Initiate of Mystra are more to say, "Yes, I can," when you otherwise wouldn't be able to use any of your class features due to DM fiat. There's a big difference between walking around buffed and casting spells in your AMF, and still being able to cast spells despite the DM killing off all the deities or sending your characters into a huge dead magic area.

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    Default Re: Dweomerkeeper build help

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    Put that Contemplative dip as early as possible, after Dweomerkeeper 5. That way your Mantle of Spells 4 can be Limited Wish.

    If you're using Divine Oracle, use the Frog God's Fane detailed in Complete Scoundrel to get its Skill Focus prerequisite for 2k gp instead of spending a feat on it.

    Servant of the Fallen and Initiate of Mystra are more to say, "Yes, I can," when you otherwise wouldn't be able to use any of your class features due to DM fiat. There's a big difference between walking around buffed and casting spells in your AMF, and still being able to cast spells despite the DM killing off all the deities or sending your characters into a huge dead magic area.
    Good idea on Contemplative. Not sure about what the DM will say about the CS skill item/locations, but I'll ask about it. Your comments about Servant of the Fallen and Initiate of Mystra make great sense, but I suspect that their use might derail the intended plot arc a bit too much.

    Any other criticism on the build? Suggestions for surviving until divine magic comes back online in the campaign?

    EDIT: Also, equipment suggestions. Those first few levels of CC until divine magic returns are gonna hurt without full plate. We have standard WBL, I think.
    Last edited by Postmodernist; 2012-02-14 at 03:14 AM.

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    Default Re: Dweomerkeeper build help

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    Dweomerkeeper was originally printed in Faiths and Pantheons, a Forgotten Realms book, and was only available to worshipers of Mystra. I guess they did scrub out the setting-specific bits when they put it in the web enhancement.
    And kicked up the power of the class by several notches. While making it easier to get into.
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    I guess this forum is some kind of mystical afterlife for dnd nerds who die during internet discussions? All the greatest internet heroes argue here every day about physics and dnd, rise again when slain, and enjoy a dining hall which serves them unlimited quantities of heavenly food like ramen, soda, alcohol, and birthday cake.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    Yes, the underwear of my epic wizards are more than capable of conquering your average world on their own.

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    Default Re: Dweomerkeeper build help

    Would it be worth going standard cleric over cloistered in this particular game set up? I'm having second thoughts...

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    Default Re: Dweomerkeeper build help

    Quick questions: Your using web stuff what about dragon stuff?

    I always question the usefulness of DMM(Persist). I might advise against it especially with a monk in the group. It is most commonly used to make yourself in melee than the monk and that may cause some problems out of game. I'd suggest sticking to Cloister Cleric and asking if you can cast spells like a wizard, or maybe sorc, who is keyed off wisdom so that way you aren't forced into the role of Melee and thus less likely to do it later on. So basically when the gods come back you suddenly become a cleric but before then were more akin to a wizard.
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    Default Re: Dweomerkeeper build help

    DMM: Persist is good for group buffs as well: Mass Lesser Vigor, Recitation, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful... If he's not allowed Night Stick stacking, then he's not going to be able to have a full array of persistent combat buffs anyway.

    You should get a Reliquary Holy Symbol (MIC) starting out, and try to pick up a Night Stick at some point. You can cast Eagle's Splendor before you buff to get +2 turn attempts as well. Between all that and Cha 14, you'll be one turn attempt shy of being able to persist two spells each day. With Extra Turning twice you'll have exactly enough to persist three.

    Everyone in the party should get a Healing Belt (MIC) starting out, especially if you can't even cast any cure spells for the first few sessions.

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    Default Re: Dweomerkeeper build help

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    DMM: Persist is good for group buffs as well: Mass Lesser Vigor, Recitation, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful... If he's not allowed Night Stick stacking, then he's not going to be able to have a full array of persistent combat buffs anyway.

    You should get a Reliquary Holy Symbol (MIC) starting out, and try to pick up a Night Stick at some point. You can cast Eagle's Splendor before you buff to get +2 turn attempts as well. Between all that and Cha 14, you'll be one turn attempt shy of being able to persist two spells each day. With Extra Turning twice you'll have exactly enough to persist three.

    Everyone in the party should get a Healing Belt (MIC) starting out, especially if you can't even cast any cure spells for the first few sessions.
    Excellent suggestions, BF, thanks very much. I was considering a Reliquary Holy Symbol for both flavor/background reasons in addition to its utility. Would it be worth burning 2 feats on Extra Turning just to fuel DMM?

    Suddo, I doubt I'll have major access to Dragon magazine stuff, though it might go through with DM approval. That said, I'd probably stay away from it.

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    Default Re: Dweomerkeeper build help

    Quote Originally Posted by Postmodernist View Post
    Excellent suggestions, BF, thanks very much. I was considering a Reliquary Holy Symbol for both flavor/background reasons in addition to its utility. Would it be worth burning 2 feats on Extra Turning just to fuel DMM?
    With the Reliquary Holy Symbol alone you'll have exactly enough turn attempts to Persist one spell with Cha 14.

    If you want to Persist a second spell, you'll need Extra Turning once and a Night Stick.

    If you want to Persist a third spell, you'll need Extra Turning a second time, and to cast Eagle's Splendor before buffing.

    Whether or not it's worth it is entirely up to you, and what feats you would be taking instead of those.

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    Default Re: Dweomerkeeper build help

    DMM Persisting is a good, if well-documented, trick. Any other suggestions for those feat slots, though? Some versatility might be in order.

    Also, I'm considering juggling around my stats. As a cloistered cleric, my BAB and armor are going to suck. Should I dump Str and pump Dex a little? Other suggestions for 32 point build? I want to ensure usefulness and survivability during those first few divine magic-free sessions.

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    Default Re: Dweomerkeeper build help

    Just thought of something to do with those 4 feats if you do decide to go with an Elf.
    You can Shuffle them into the 4 pretty much terrible feats to get into Spelldancer (Magic of Faerun), and persist every spell with dancing in the morning. There is some way to become immune to the drawbacks of over-dancing that I am not remembering at the moment.
    If you pick up Ocular Spell you can arguably persist every spell.
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Mad_Linguist View Post
    If you PaO it into something else, you couldn't really expect it to still work (after all, a +1 flaming sword PaOed into a horse doesn't get you a +1 Flaming horse).
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunhaven
    I'm bringing this up and hoping that the DM lets me get away with a +1 Flaming Horse. Just putting that out there.

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    Default Re: Dweomerkeeper build help

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Death View Post
    Just thought of something to do with those 4 feats if you do decide to go with an Elf.
    You can Shuffle them into the 4 pretty much terrible feats to get into Spelldancer (Magic of Faerun), and persist every spell with dancing in the morning. There is some way to become immune to the drawbacks of over-dancing that I am not remembering at the moment.
    If you pick up Ocular Spell you can arguably persist every spell.
    As stated earlier, I don't think the Shuffle move will see play. Further, I suspect that Faerun PrCs will not be allowed, since we're playing in the Dragonlance setting.

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    Default Re: Dweomerkeeper build help

    Quote Originally Posted by Postmodernist View Post
    DMM Persisting is a good, if well-documented, trick. Any other suggestions for those feat slots, though? Some versatility might be in order.

    Also, I'm considering juggling around my stats. As a cloistered cleric, my BAB and armor are going to suck. Should I dump Str and pump Dex a little? Other suggestions for 32 point build? I want to ensure usefulness and survivability during those first few divine magic-free sessions.
    I'd put Dex and Int both at 10 starting out. Until you get spells you should just get a Longspear and try to stay behind someone.

    For other feats, there's Craft Wondrous Item, Quicken Spell, Item Familiar.... Wild Cohort could be useful in the earlier levels, and at 7th+ you can get a Dire Eagle (RoS) to use as a flying mount.

    I just realized, you'll have the Magic domain, so (assuming it will work without a deity) pick up a partially charged Wand of Web and use it sparingly.

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    Default Re: Dweomerkeeper build help

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    I'd put Dex and Int both at 10 starting out. Until you get spells you should just get a Longspear and try to stay behind someone.

    For other feats, there's Craft Wondrous Item, Quicken Spell, Item Familiar.... Wild Cohort could be useful in the earlier levels, and at 7th+ you can get a Dire Eagle (RoS) to use as a flying mount.

    I just realized, you'll have the Magic domain, so (assuming it will work without a deity) pick up a partially charged Wand of Web and use it sparingly.
    Definitely considered wands, and I never noticed how impressive Item Familiar is for a single feat. Here's my sheet. I bumped Dex and Int, while dumping strength. I shouldn't be in melee unless buffed anyway, I think. There's still more to come, and further critique/recommendations are welcome.

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