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    Thurbane's Avatar

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    Default [3.X] 3.0 DR vs 3.5 DR

    Hey all,

    I might be missing something, but I want to check two examples of DR in 3.0 and see if there is a specific or general version of it being updated to 3.5.

    * Volodni (UE): "Half damage from Piercing: Piercing weapons deal only half damage to volodnis, with a minimum of 1 point of damage."

    * Bone Creature (BovD): "Immunities (Ex): Because it lacks flesh or internal organs, it takes only half damage from piercing and slashing weapons."

    ...did either of these get an official update to be more inline with the 3.5 DR system? It's easy enough to houserule it as DR X/bludgeoning or slashing and DR X/bludgeoning respectively, but I was hoping not to have to reinvent the wheel.

    P.S. I am the DM, so no "ask the DM" answers please.

    Cheers - T

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    Default Re: [3.X] 3.0 DR vs 3.5 DR

    To my knowledge, there are no "half damage from something" defenses in 3.5e. Only Damage Reduction and Energy Resistance.
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    Default Re: [3.X] 3.0 DR vs 3.5 DR

    What do either of those have to do with DR? It looks like you'd just have piercing weapons deal half the damage, and leave it at that. There's DR in 3.0, and this isn't listed as being DR, so I would have to assume that any conversion would just be straight across, with absolutely no changes.

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    Default Re: [3.X] 3.0 DR vs 3.5 DR

    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    What do either of those have to do with DR? It looks like you'd just have piercing weapons deal half the damage, and leave it at that. There's DR in 3.0, and this isn't listed as being DR, so I would have to assume that any conversion would just be straight across, with absolutely no changes.
    Well, the Bone Creature from BoVD is pretty much a skeleton+ template and it inherits the "half damage" quality from the later.

    So when updating Bone Creature to 3.5 it is reasonable to use skelton's DR instead.

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    Default Re: [3.X] 3.0 DR vs 3.5 DR

    Reasonable, perhaps in certain terms. Though I fall on the side that it should be a straight shot. Just keep the Half Damage thing going. I mean if it was supposed to be DR, they probably would have used DR. As is most DR/Type is low enough to basically be a non-factor after the first two levels or so. DR 5/Bludgeon just isn't really going to get a lot of mileage when you're smacking for a good 60-100 a hit. And if the DR is really any higher, at low levels it becomes much more powerful than it would otherwise be. Like... ask a few players to whip up a melee/mundane character at level 1. Give an enemy DR 20/Bludgeon, and I'd estimate about 95/100 you'd have a TPK from that one otherwise appropriate enemy (If you opened it up to Magic Users, it might be better only because you know there will be that one guy who packed something like Lantern Light and got a lucky damage roll, or too Precocious Apprentice into Scorching Ray, etc, but still pretty harsh). In part because people forget about sticks and tend to stick to things they think are impressive, usually Slashing damage. Or piercing for the ranged guy.
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    Default Re: [3.X] 3.0 DR vs 3.5 DR

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    * Bone Creature (BovD)...
    Page 16 of the: "Leaflets of Triel", right column. But it's "advertised" as:
    "...unofficial v3.5 edition update for Book of Vile Darkness, a Dungeons & Dragons mature product."
    So that could be a problem if you really need 100% official, and WotC approved thing.

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    Default Re: [3.X] 3.0 DR vs 3.5 DR

    Quote Originally Posted by ArcturusV View Post
    Give an enemy DR 20/Bludgeon, and I'd estimate about 95/100 you'd have a TPK from that one otherwise appropriate enemy (If you opened it up to Magic Users, it might be better only because you know there will be that one guy who packed something like Lantern Light and got a lucky damage roll, or too Precocious Apprentice into Scorching Ray, etc, but still pretty harsh). In part because people forget about sticks and tend to stick to things they think are impressive, usually Slashing damage. Or piercing for the ranged guy.
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    Default Re: [3.X] 3.0 DR vs 3.5 DR

    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    What do either of those have to do with DR? It looks like you'd just have piercing weapons deal half the damage, and leave it at that. There's DR in 3.0, and this isn't listed as being DR, so I would have to assume that any conversion would just be straight across, with absolutely no changes.
    Skeletons in the 3.0 MM used to have the same text, but it got changed to DR5/bludgeoning in 3.5.
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    Default Re: [3.X] 3.0 DR vs 3.5 DR

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    To my knowledge, there are no "half damage from something" defenses in 3.5e. Only Damage Reduction and Energy Resistance.
    There's Hardness!

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    Default Re: [3.X] 3.0 DR vs 3.5 DR

    Quote Originally Posted by ArcturusV View Post
    Just keep the Half Damage thing going. I mean if it was supposed to be DR, they probably would have used DR.
    No, because 3.0 did not have DR subject to damage types such as piercing, bludgeoning, and slashing. These have been converted to DR for 3.5 in all cases where such a conversion has been explicit.
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    Default Re: [3.X] 3.0 DR vs 3.5 DR

    Quote Originally Posted by Drachasor View Post
    There's Hardness!
    No, hardness works like DR does, except on all damage from any source. What you're probably thinking of is the way objects halve/quarter damage from certain sources, but that's not generally something creatures can get (even if they have hardness, which is sometimes the case).
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    Default Re: [3.X] 3.0 DR vs 3.5 DR

    The Statue spell (wiz/sorc 7) might let you get object energy resistance, maybe. Probably not.

    Flesh to Stone does, though
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    Default Re: [3.X] 3.0 DR vs 3.5 DR

    Quote Originally Posted by Drachasor View Post
    There's Hardness!
    Which also works just exactly as Damage Reduction and Energy Resistance.
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    Default Re: [3.X] 3.0 DR vs 3.5 DR

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    ...did either of these get an official update to be more inline with the 3.5 DR system? It's easy enough to houserule it as DR X/bludgeoning or slashing and DR X/bludgeoning respectively, but I was hoping not to have to reinvent the wheel.
    Specifically? No, although as noted critters with essentially the same ability got altered to DR 5/Bludgeoning.

    Not that it matters, however. The big reason for the change in DR seems to have been to make it much less binary, and not strictly require certain types of weapons. In 3.0, DR numbers were much higher, so you mostly either hurt the target because you had a weapon that would, or you didn't have the ability to do more than minor scratches. In 3.5, DR was reduced significantly, so not having the right weapon is only a 5-10 point reduction in damage dealt - you still have a decent chance of killing that golem.

    The caveat to this, however, is that in 3.0, DR types were tiered - a +5 steel weapon would penetrate DR/Silver, no problems - but in 3.5 they're not tiered, they're specific (leading to golf bag syndrome).

    Really, though, it doesn't matter overly much in this specific case. With a mechanism of half-damage from the wrong type, limited to one wrong type, it's not really a big deal, even in 3.5 - it's unlikely everyone in the party will be using the same type of weapon, so it only nerfs one of the melee brutes, and that person is still doing noticeable damage on every hit (it's half damage). So you could copy it straight without overly much complaint from most players.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: [3.X] 3.0 DR vs 3.5 DR

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    To my knowledge, there are no "half damage from something" defenses in 3.5e. Only Damage Reduction and Energy Resistance.
    Well, there's swarms:
    A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons.

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    Default Re: [3.X] 3.0 DR vs 3.5 DR

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff the Green View Post
    What kind of party doesn't carry at least a quarterstaff?
    Nearly every 1st level character I have (barring Wizards) will carry at least one club - it's a simple weapon, it's melee and ranged, and it's free!

    @ 137ben - good call on the Swarms!

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    Default Re: [3.X] 3.0 DR vs 3.5 DR

    In the case of The Bone Creature you have an intelligent skeleton so you should use the intelligent the skeleton's DR. In the case of the Volodni who were wooden creature they should probably have DR 5 or 10 vs slashing just like Treants.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArcturusV View Post
    Reasonable, perhaps in certain terms. Though I fall on the side that it should be a straight shot. Just keep the Half Damage thing going. I mean if it was supposed to be DR, they probably would have used DR.
    The fact remains that the (half damage from x weapons) was universally abandoned in the switch over to 3.5. (except for Swarms) To say it if was meant to DR they probably would have used DR is silly. 3.0 didn't have DR vs damage types it used special materials or +X enchantment.
    Last edited by Lord Vukodlak; 2013-07-03 at 09:43 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.X] 3.0 DR vs 3.5 DR

    There is actually at least one more case of half damage in 3.5, the Plague Blight. It's probably one of the weirdest creatures in Libris Mortis, rules-wise. It takes half damage from all physical attacks, and applies this before the DR5/slashing it also has. So there is a case to be made for keeping the half damage for Volodni and Bone Creature. As mentioned, bone creature is pretty much just a smart skeleton, so you might want to change that one to be in line with skeleton.
    Last edited by The Viscount; 2013-07-03 at 12:28 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.X] 3.0 DR vs 3.5 DR

    Quote Originally Posted by tuggyne View Post
    No, hardness works like DR does, except on all damage from any source. What you're probably thinking of is the way objects halve/quarter damage from certain sources, but that's not generally something creatures can get (even if they have hardness, which is sometimes the case).
    Oops, that's an embarrassing mistake. Never actually had animated objects in any game so I missed that.

    Shield Other would work though.

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