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    Default Rogue fix (3.5 and 3.PF) PEACH

    This is part of an ongoing project of mine to rebalance the 11 core classes so they are closer together in power. I don't imagine that I can bring everything right down to the same level, but I'm trying to increase the versatility and functionality of melee, while reduce the do-anthing world breaking strength of casters.
    My theoretical goal is to aim for about tier 3, but in general I just don't want the ability gap to be quite so wide.

    For the rogue, I took two classes with similar archetypes, the ninja and the swashbuckler, and looted them of their best class features. Both the ninja and the swashbuckler are generally considered weaker versions of the classes they are based off of (rogue and warrior, respectively); so I decided I would rather have 1 good class than 3 mediocre ones.
    I've also tried to make Sneak attack more useful so that the rogue can rely less on Strength to focus on pumping Dexterity and Intellect, in hopes of bringing down it's MAD and truly shining in it's areas of choice.
    As usual, further comments will be in the spoilered text.


    Rogue

    Alignment
    Any

    Hit Points at each level
    3+1d3

    Class Skills
    The rogue’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).

    Skill Points at 1st Level
    (8 + Int modifier) ×4

    Skill Points at Each Additional Level
    8 + Int modifier

    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

    1st|
    +0
    |+0|+2|+0|Sneak attack +1d6, Weapon Style Feat, Trapfinding

    2nd|
    +1
    |+0|+3|+0|Ghost Step, Insightful Strike

    3rd|
    +2
    |+1|+3|+1|Sneak attack +2d6, Trap sense +1

    4th|
    +3
    |+1|+4|+1|Uncanny Dodge, Weapon Style Feat

    5th|
    +3
    |+1|+4|+1|Sneak attack +3d6, Studied Foe I

    6th|
    +4
    |+2|+5|+2|Trap sense +2, Acrobatics, Spring Attack

    7th|
    +5
    |+2|+5|+2|Sneak attack +4d6, Practiced Poisoner

    8th|
    +6/+1
    |+2|+6|+2|Imp. Uncanny Dodge, Studied Foe II, Weapon Style Feat

    9th|
    +6/+1
    |+3|+6|+3|Sneak attack +7d6, Trap sense +3

    10th|
    +7/+2
    |+3|+7|+3|Weapon Style Feat, Weakening Critical

    11th|
    +8/+3
    |+3|+7|+3|Sneak attack +6d6, Studied Foe III

    12th|
    +9/+4
    |+4|+8|+4|Trap sense +4, Imp. Flanking, Weapon Style Feat

    13th|
    +9/+4
    |+4|+8|+4|Sneak attack +7d6, Ghost mind

    14th|
    +10/+5
    |+4|+9|+4|Studied Foe IV, Lucky

    15th|
    +11/+6/+6
    |+5|+9|+5|Sneak attackk +8d6, Trap sense +5

    16th|
    +12/+7/+7
    |+5|+10|+5|Weapon Style Feat

    17th|
    +12/+7/+7
    |+5|+10|+5|Sneak attack +9d6, Ghost sight

    18th|
    +13/+8/+8
    |+6|+11|+6|Trap sense +6, Studied Foe V

    19th|
    +14/+9/+9
    |+6|+11|+6|Sneak attack +10d6, Wounding Critical

    20th|
    +15/+10/+10
    |+6|+12|+6|Masterful Strike [/table]

    Class Features
    All of the following are class features of the rogue.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency
    Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, light crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, short sword, and any 1 other martial weapon of her choice. Rogues are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

    Sneak Attack
    If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
    The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.
    Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within one half of the first range increment of whatever ranged weapon you are using.
    With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty.
    A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Why should a rogue need to hit a particular location for her sneak attack when no other class in the game cares where exactly you hit? Unless you are playing your entire game with called shots, it just seems like needless complexity.

    Weapon Style Feat
    Despite their excellent ability at avoiding attacks, Rogues are not generally the main tank (or meat-shield) for a group, owing to their low HP and light armor restrictions. They tend to favor combat styles that grant them extra AC or allow them to stay out of melee range entirely, which leads them to favor either the Two-Weapon fighting or Ranged Combat styles.
    The rogue may select any of the following weapon style feats for which she meets the prerequisites, or a feat from the Weapon Focus chain. The rogue must still meet the prerequisites for these feats.

    Two-Weapons Style
    • Two-Weapon Fighting
    • Two-Weapon Defense
    • Two-Weapon Rend
    • Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
    • Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
    • Two-Weapon Mastery

    Projectile Weapons Style
    • Precise Shot
    • Manyshot
    • Rapid Shot
    • Point Blank Shot
    • Far Shot
    • Master Marksman


    Weapon Focus Feats
    • Weapon Focus
    • Greater Weapon Focus
    • Weapon Specialialization
    • Greater Weapon Specialization



    Spoiler
    Show
    While discussing the various options for improving TWF in another thread, fellow poster Seerow pointed out his own version of the fighting styles fix, which I think works really well with the core RAW and gave a different purpose to each different style (TWF vs THF vs SnB, etc). I really liked the idea, but of course I had to give it my own twist, so basically what I boil the various fighting styles down to are the following: Two-Handed Fighting (pure damage), Sword ‘n Board (defense, obviously), Two-weapon fighting (damage/defense hybrid), Reach (control), and Ranged (damage/defense hybrid, by virtue of being out of melee range).
    I’m planning on giving various martial classes options for different styles, with the fighter and possibly the barbarian just getting enough feats to master several of the styles at once.
    As of yet, I have only rewritten the feats for TWF and there definitely needs to be more active defense style feats, so I’d love some feedback. I figure I’ll work on each set of feats as I come to whatever class features that style most prominently. For now, the TWF feats are being posted here, and check the fighter for an improved Weapon focus chain.
    If none of this works for you, please feel free to discuss with your players/DM about replacing these weapons styles with Tome of Battle styles.

    Trapfinding
    The rogue gets a bonus to her Search and Disable Device skill checks when using them to locate and disarm traps. This bonus starts at +1, and increases by 1 for every 5 rogue levels beyond the first. (+2 at 6th, +3 at 11th, +4 at 16th, etc).
    If a character gains Trapfinding from two or more classes, the levels from the classes that grant Trapfinding stack to determine the character’s bonus.
    Finding a non-magical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

    A rogue who beats a trap’s DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with her party) without disarming it.
    Spoiler
    Show
    I never liked that any group of core characters essentially required a rogue to get through a dungeon, so I’m altering the trap-rules to allow anyone with a sufficiently high enough check to find them. The rogue just gets a bonus. In addition, I’ve rewritten the skill-system to make it a lot easier to acquire decent cross-class skills so that some else can actually get a search check that high, if need be; in hindsight it ended up much more like Pathfinder than 3.5.

    Ghost Step (Su)
    Starting at 2nd level, a rogue can become invisible for 1 round, (as if using the invisibility spell, except the duration is limited). The rogue may use this ability once per day per 2 levels of rogue or other rogue-like class (factotum, spell thief, etc). Using this ability is a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
    At 8th level the rogue’s Ghost-Step ability improves, and each use lasts for 2 rounds instead of 1. At 14th level, the rogue may use her ghost-step ability to become incorporeal instead of invisible. At 20th level the ability improves again, increasing to 3 rounds per use, and the rogue may use her ghost step ability to enter the ethereal plane as if using the etheral jaunt spell (except the duration is limited).

    Insightful Strike (Ex)
    At 2nd level a rogue becomes able to place her attacks where they deal greater damage. She applies her Intelligence bonus as an insight bonus on damage rolls (in addition to her Strength modifer). The rogue must be proficient with the weapon she is using in order to gain this bonus.
    Targets immune to critical hits are immune to the rogue’s insightful strike. A rogue cannot use this ability when wearing heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.

    Trap Sense (Ex)
    At 3rd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps, giving her a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise to +2 when the rogue reaches 6th level, to +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level.
    Trap sense bonuses gained from multiple classes stack.

    Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
    Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.
    If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

    Studied Foe
    Starting at 5th level, a rogue becomes more adept at using her sneak attack against unusual enemies. Pick one of the following categories: Undead, Constructs, Plants, Oozes and Elementals, or Incorporeal Creatures; creatures of this type are no longer immune to the rogue's sneak attacks. A rogue picks another group of creatures to study and learn how to apply her sneak attack damage to at levels 8, 11, 14, and 18.

    Acrobatics (Ex)
    Starting at 6th level, a rogue gains a +2 bonus on Climb, Jump, and Tumble checks. This bonus increases to4 at 12th level and +6 at 18th level.

    Spring Attack
    At 6th level the rogue gains Spring Attack feat as a bonus feat; she still needs to meet the normal prequisites for the feat. If the rogue does not meet the prerequisites, she does not gain the feat, but if at any point she eventually meets the prequisites, she instantly gains the feat.
    If the rogue already has the Spring Attack feat, she may take any feat from the list of fighter bonus feats in it's place.

    Practiced Poisoner (Ex)
    At 7th level a rogue has become more adept at using poisons to dispatch her foes. A rogue no longer has any chance to accidentally poison herself when preparing a poison. In addition, the DC of the fortitude save for any poison prepared by the rogue is increased by 2. This bonus increases to +5 at 11th level, and +8 at 18th level.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Yes, poisons are still to expensive and to unreliabel; they need some serious TLC. I haven't gotten around to that yet, but maybe I'll reserve a post down below for when I do. For a simple tweak, I would say we should start by changing the rule so that a succesful Fort save reduces the damage by half, rather than negating it entirely.

    Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
    A rogue of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked.
    This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does.
    If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.

    Weakening Critical (Ex)
    A rogue of 10th level or higher learns how to target joints, muscles, nerve points, and other vulnerable areas, meaning that any time she scores a critical hit against a creature she also deals 2 points of Strength, Dexterity, Intellect, or Wisdom damage to the creature (rogue’s choice, can pick a new type for every critical). Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to this effect.
    At 15th level, if the rogue has an intellect score of 17 or higher the ability score damage on a critical strike is increased to 3 points, and at 20th level it increases to 4 points, provided the rogue’s intellect is 21 or higher.
    Spoiler
    Show
    I added in the caveat of requiring a higher Int score after writing this ability as part of an effort to make a rogue care about her Intellect at higher levels. Let me know if you think this should be taken out or their needs to be more like this.

    Improved Flanking (Ex)
    A rogue of 12th level or higher who is flanking an opponent gains a +4 bonus on attacks instead of a +2 bonus on attacks. Any creature who is granting a flanking bonus to the rogue also gains this improvement to their own flanking bonus.

    Lucky (Su)
    Many rogues live by the credo “better lucky than good”. Once per day, plus an additional number of times equal to your Charisma bonus, if any, a rogue of 12th level or higher may reroll any failed attack roll, skill check, ability check, or saving throw. The character may take whichever roll has the higher result.
    After using this ability you must wait 1d4 rounds before using it again.

    Ghost Mind (Su)
    At 13th level, a rogue gains a special resistance to spells of the Divination school. She gains a bonus to her Spell Resistance against Divination spells and their effects equal to her Intelligence modifier.
    Spoiler
    Show
    I'm intending these class fixes to be used with my more general magic fix which gives a base SR to every character.

    Ghost Sight (Su)
    At 17th level and higher, a rogue can see invisible and ethereal creatures as easily as she sees material creatures and objects.

    Wounding Critical (Ex)
    A rogue of 19th level or higher who scores a critical hit against a creature also deals 2 points of constitution damage to the creature (this damage is in addition to the damage dealt by the rogue’s weakening critical class feature). Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to this effect.

    Masterful Strike (Ex)
    A rogue has become so adept at finding and striking her enemies weak points that she can make extraordinary attacks that other characters can barely imagine. No target that the rogue attacks is immune to her sneak attack or critical strikes, effectively negating the immunity to critical hits that many types of creatures posses. Any benefit that a rogue could normally add to her sneak attacks, critical strikes, or regular attacks (such as her insightful strike bonus or weakening critical) may also be applied to any successful critical hit against these creatures.
    In addition, the critical threat range of any weapon the rogue is wielding is increased by 1; this stacks with any other critical threat range increasing benefit, such as the Improved Critical feat.
    Spoiler
    Show
    I like capstone abilities; I think they're a nice reward for sticking out a full 20 levels (or 10, for PrCs). That being said, I also like multiclassing, so giving up a capstone shouldn't cripple your character. This ability probably needs some tweaking, let me know what you think.




    Conclusion
    This is actually the first melee oriented class I’ve done for my core rebalance since the monk, and thinking about the combat-style feats made me realize that while I’m happy with the rogue (for now at least) my monk fix monk is actually still in need of yet more work. One of the things I tried to do with the rogue was make it synergize better as a teammplayer; while I’ve improved the monk’s basic attributes, it’s still a largely self-centered class. All I’ve done is push it from mid-tier 5 to tier 4 (maybe upper tier 4, but certainly no farther). As I work on these various fixes, the comments and discussion continuously teach me a little more about D&D. Maybe by the time I finish everything it will actually be half-decent.


    Edit Update: I've scrapped evasion as a class ability. I've never really liked what it is supposed to represent, and with other improvements to default-level magical defenses from my magic-fix I think it's less neccessary.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2012-10-06 at 09:25 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's not called common because the sense is common, it's called common because it's about common things.
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  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Rogue fix (3.5 and 3.PF) PEACH

    Fighting with a weapon in each hand

    General Rules
    Any weapon wielded in one hand adds your full Strength modifier to damage rolls made with that weapon. Any weapon wielded in both hands grants you 1.5 times your Str modifier to damage rolls.
    If you choose to wield a one-handed weapon in both hands and add 1.5 times your Str modifier to damage rolls, you also take a -4 non-proficiency penalty to attack rolls when fighting in this manner.
    Light weapons cannot be wielded with two hands.
    When using a light weapon, you may always choose to apply your Dex modifier to attack rolls in place of your Str modifier.

    Mechanics
    If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you gain a +1 Parry bonus to your AC, and an additional +1 for every 5 points extra points of your BAB (So +2 at +6, +3 at +11, etc).
    When fighting with this style, you may make one extra attack with your offhand weapon as part of a Full-round attack. During any round in which you make an extra attack with your offhand weapon, you suffer a -4 penalty to attacks with your primary hand, and a -8 penalty to the attack with your off hand. (You do not suffer these penalties if you merely hold a weapon in your off-hand, and do not attack with it.) You must announce if you are going to make attacks with both weapons before you make the attack roll with your primary hand, so that you can apply the appropriate penalties.

    You can reduce these penalties in two ways:
    • If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalty for striking with that weapon is reduced by 2. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)
    • The Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the penalty for both hands by 4; the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat reduces the offhand penalty by a further 2.

    Table: Two-Weapon Fighting Penalties
    Circumstance Primary Hand Off-hand
    Normal Penalties
    -4
    -8
    Off-hand weapon is light
    -4
    -6
    Two-Weapon Fighting feat
    +0
    -4
    Off-hand weapon is light and Two-Weapon Fighting feat
    +0
    -2
    Off-hand weapon is light and Imp. Two-Weapon Fighting feat
    +0
    +0

    FAQ
    Q: But DBD, the AC bonus makes SnB all but useless!
    A: Yes, that's because the armor stats as written are pretty much carp; I recommend you use any of a number of homebrew armor fixes found on this website, particularly mine or Seerow's.

    Two-Weapon Fighting [General]
    You are more proficient when fighting with a weapon in each hand, and can make extra attacks with your offhand weapon more easily.
    Prerequisite: Dex 11 or BAB +1
    Benefit: The penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced; when attacking in this manner the penalty for attacks made with either hand lessens by 4. (See the Two-Weapon Fighting special attack.)
    In addition, whenever you make an attack with your main-hand weapon as a standard action, you may also make a single attack with your off-hand weapon.
    Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand you may only make extra attacks as part of a Full-round action, and when you do so you suffer a a -4 penalty to the attack roll with your primary hand and a -8 penalty to the attack roll with your off hand.
    Special: A fighter may select Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats.


    Improved Two-Weapon Fighting [General]
    Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, Dex 13 or BAB +3
    Benefit: The penalties for attacking with your offhand weapon are reduced by 2. In addition, you may use your Dexterity modifier in place of your Strength modifier for all attack rolls made with non-exotic one-handed weapons, and you may apply 1.5 times your Dexterity modifier to attack rolls made with light weapons.
    Additionally, if your BAB is +6 or greater, you may make a second attack with your offhand weapon as part of a full-round attack action. This attack is made with a -5 penalty to the attack roll, plus any other penalties you would normally suffer.
    Normal: You can only apply your dexterity modifier to attack rolls made with light weapons, and you may make only a single additional attack during a Full-round action.
    Special: A fighter may select Improved Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats.


    Greater Two-Weapon Fighting [General]
    Prerequisites: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Dex 15 or BAB +6
    Benefit: When fighting with a weapon in each hand, during a full-round or standard action you may make as many attacks with your offhand as you can make with your main hand weapon. Each attack beyond the first is made with a -5 penalty to the attack roll, plus any other penalty you would normally suffer. (So assuming a light weapon, the first attack is made at your normal BAB, the second at -5, third also at -5, etc.)
    You are an expert at finding cracks in your opponent’s armor and gaps in their defense through which you can slip your blades. You may choose during any round to give up your Parry bonus to AC, and in exchange you may ignore an equal amount of Damage Resistance from every opponent. While using this tactic, you cannot fight defensively or take a total defense action.
    Special: A fighter may select Greater Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats.


    Two-Weapon Defense [General]
    Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, Dex 15 or BAB +6
    Benefit: When fighting with a weapon in each hand, you gain a +1 shield bonus to your AC, plus an additional +1 for every 4 levels past 1st. (so +2 at 5th, +3 at 9th, etc)
    When you are fighting defensively or using the total defense action, this shield bonus increases to +2, plus an additional +1 for every 3 levels past 1st. (so +3 at 4th, +4 at 7th, etc)
    Special: A fighter may select Two-Weapon Defense as one of his fighter bonus feats.


    Two-Weapon Rend [General]
    Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, Dex 15 or BAB +6
    Benefit: If you hit an opponent with a weapon in each hand during the same attack, you may automatically Rend the opponent. Rending is this manner deals additional damage (counted as a seperate attack) equal to the base damage of your main hand weapon plus your offhand weapon, not including any modifiers from ability scores. You may only rend once per action, regardless of how many successful attacks you make.
    Special: A fighter may select Two-Weapon Rend as one of his fighter bonus feats.


    Two-Weapon Mastery [General]
    Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Dex 17 or BAB +11
    Benefit: Any one-handed weapon or double weapon (including simple, martial, and exotic weapons) is treated as a light weapon for the purposes of determining penalties or bonuses to attack rolls from your ability scores. (Effectively, this means you add double your dexterity bonus to any attack rolls made with those weapons.)
    You are particularly adept at defending yourself from many angles of attack at once; if you also have the Two-Weapon Defense feat, you are immune to being flanked when fighting with a weapon in each hand or using a double weapon.
    You are especially good at shredding through even the toughest of opponents; if you also have the Two-Weapon Rend feat, you may Rend once for every pair of main hand-offhand attacks you hit with each action.
    Your reflexes and combat prowess have been honed to extraordinary levels; if you also have the Combat Reflexes feat, whenever you make an attack of opportunity, you can also make an attack on that target with your offhand weapon.
    Special: A fighter may select Two-Weapon Mastery as one of his fighter bonus feats.



    The modified Spring-Attack Chain

    Dodge [General]
    Prerequisite: Dex 13
    Benefit: At the start of a round, you designate one or more opponents and receive a +2 dodge bonus to AC against attacks from those opponents until the start of the next round. The maximum number of opponents you may designate is equal to your dexterity bonus.
    A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses. Also, dodge bonuses stack with each other, unlike most other types of bonuses.
    Special: A Fighter may select Dodge as one of his Fighter bonus feats.


    Mobility [General]
    Prerequisite: Dex 13
    Benefit: Your base speed is increased by 10 ft.
    In addition, you get a +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks of opportunity caused when you move out of or within a threatened area. A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses.
    Dodge bonuses stack with each other, unlike most types of bonuses.
    Special: A Fighter may select Mobility as one of his Fighter bonus feats.


    Spring Attack [General]
    Prerequisites: Dex 13, Mobility, BAB +4
    Benefit: When using the attack action with a melee or ranged weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.
    You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.
    Special: A fighter may select Spring Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2014-07-24 at 04:13 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's not called common because the sense is common, it's called common because it's about common things.
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  3. - Top - End - #3
    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: Rogue fix (3.5 and 3.PF) PEACH

    Allowing characters without trapfinding to discover magical traps does not help the party in any way, since the only characters who have Disable Device as a class skill already have trapfinding. The way cross-class skills work in 3.5, as well as those high DCs? No one is going to be able to disarm magical traps except the rogue.

    I have several problems with your Weapon Style section. First of all, for the love of Asmodeus, Multishot is not a feat. I don't know where all of you guys are getting this random feat from out of thin air, but no. There exist three feats that you could possibly be talking about, and they are Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and Greater Manyshot. There is no "Multishot".

    Second, giving the rogue Point Blank Shot at level 1 neither fits the flavor of the ability nor helps the rogue mechanically speaking. Your fluff says "The rogue wants to stay out of melee range", so her first step to that is gimping her archery by focusing on shooting at targets within 30 feet?

    Also, delaying Point Blank Shot until 4th level basically means the rogue is not going to be good at archery until that point. Pretty much every archer build involves being a fighter or human at first level so you can pick up Precise Shot from the get-go, and this class is no exception. If I was playing this rogue (and I wouldn't, though that's no offense meant towards your class, I just hate rogues), I would pick archery and grab Precise Shot as my first level feat, because Point Blank Shot is both a trap and a completely worthless feat.

    I suggest you go Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Greater Manyshot instead.

    My last problem is that you are ignoring the feat set that was made for the rogue to begin with: the Spring Attack line. If a rogue wants to play a skirmisher, he should be able to. Indeed, Spring Attack vastly increases a rogue's otherwise pathetic survivability, and it makes a lot more sense thematically than a rogue who is willing to stand up to a warrior with a couple of daggers and pray he doesn't get grappled. (Speaking of which, you can buff AC all you want with TWF, it's not going to change the fact that rogues can't fight in melee because they get Swallowed Whole, Grappled, Tripped, Bull Rushed, Overrun, Trampled, Disarmed, and Sundered)

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    Default Re: Rogue fix (3.5 and 3.PF) PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    Allowing characters without trapfinding to discover magical traps does not help the party in any way, since the only characters who have Disable Device as a class skill already have trapfinding. The way cross-class skills work in 3.5, as well as those high DCs? No one is going to be able to disarm magical traps except the rogue.
    Which is why I designed my own version of the skill-system which makes it possible to get a decent score in a non-class skill.
    Everything in D&D is so interconnected that there is rarely such a thing as a simple fix. So in order to deal with this one issue, I end up doing a number of things: altering some class mechanics, changing the skill system, and making a variety of other little adjustments like rewritting the Find Traps spell. And I'm still debating lowering the base DC for magic traps, too.

    I have several problems with your Weapon Style section. First of all, for the love of Asmodeus, Multishot is not a feat. I don't know where all of you guys are getting this random feat from out of thin air, but no. There exist three feats that you could possibly be talking about, and they are Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and Greater Manyshot. There is no "Multishot".

    Second, giving the rogue Point Blank Shot at level 1 neither fits the flavor of the ability nor helps the rogue mechanically speaking. Your fluff says "The rogue wants to stay out of melee range", so her first step to that is gimping her archery by focusing on shooting at targets within 30 feet?

    Also, delaying Point Blank Shot until 4th level basically means the rogue is not going to be good at archery until that point. Pretty much every archer build involves being a fighter or human at first level so you can pick up Precise Shot from the get-go, and this class is no exception. If I was playing this rogue (and I wouldn't, though that's no offense meant towards your class, I just hate rogues), I would pick archery and grab Precise Shot as my first level feat, because Point Blank Shot is both a trap and a completely worthless feat.

    I suggest you go Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Greater Manyshot instead.
    Sorry about that, this one is totally a goof-up on my part. I am in the process of reworking different combat styles, and the ranged feats are still under revision (including a feat that is actually called "Multishot"); I had intended to add a note mentioning this, but I forgot during the process of formatting the writeup. I'll go back and change it to a [Generic ranged feat] as a placeholder to avoid further confusion.

    My last problem is that you are ignoring the feat set that was made for the rogue to begin with: the Spring Attack line. If a rogue wants to play a skirmisher, he should be able to. Indeed, Spring Attack vastly increases a rogue's otherwise pathetic survivability, and it makes a lot more sense thematically than a rogue who is willing to stand up to a warrior with a couple of daggers and pray he doesn't get grappled. (Speaking of which, you can buff AC all you want with TWF, it's not going to change the fact that rogues can't fight in melee because they get Swallowed Whole, Grappled, Tripped, Bull Rushed, Overrun, Trampled, Disarmed, and Sundered)
    Good point, I have not done anything with the Spring-attack line so far, except to fold in ranged weapons as well, so you no longer need Shot-on-the-Run as a seperate feat. I'll consider how to work Spring attack and it's associates into the rogue as well.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2012-02-25 at 06:42 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's not called common because the sense is common, it's called common because it's about common things.
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    Default Re: Rogue fix (3.5 and 3.PF) PEACH

    Update: I've been tweaking little things, like ghost step (incorporeal instead of ethereal at lower levels) and the Int AC Bonus.

    With regards to Spring attack, I'm reluctant to just hand rogues the entire chain, especially since I feel like they get quite a bit in the first few levels already. I've added in SA as a bonus at the earliest a rogue could normally obtain it, provided you pick up Dodge and Mobility first. If you are making a combat-ready rogue, then you can spend both your feats from level advancement getting ready for that. Alternatively, multiclass to fighter for a level or two, which will give you all the feats you need as well as boost your HP.
    I'd consider putting it at a lower level, so a multiclass rogue can get SA at the same ECL, but I want to sleep on it and see how this looks in the morning.

    Let me know if you think there's anything else that needs work.


    Edit: Update- I think I'm gonna leave the Spring Attack bonus feat where it is for now. Multiclassing is something that a player should do if they feel it will help improve their character, not something that is implicitly planned for within the rogue's abilities.
    That being said, while I was thinking about multiclassing I realized the weapon style chains don't really work out as well if you already have levels in another class that also grants weapon style feats because you get stuck with lower level bonuses. I'm gonna rework it slightly to (hopefully) help with that; my intent here is that I'm not planning, exactly, for multiclassing, but that I'm setting it up so you won't be punished for it either.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2012-02-26 at 12:51 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's not called common because the sense is common, it's called common because it's about common things.
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