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    Default Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]

    This is a fix I have had going around in my head for a while now, so here it is:

    Celerity, lesser
    Transmutation
    Level: Bard 2, Sorcerer/Wizard 2
    Components: V, S
    Casting time: 1 swift action
    Range: One touched or Personal
    Target: One ally or You
    Duration: 1 round

    You speed up the movements of one person, letting them do more than normal.

    On the recipient's next turn, he may make an additional move action on top of any others he is entitled to have. Only one additional move action may be gained from celerity at any one moment. The spell lasts for one round or until the extra action is taken.

    Celerity
    Transmutation
    Level: Bard 4, Sorcerer/Wizard 4

    This spell works like Lesser Celerity, except the recipient may make an additional standard action instead.

    Celerity, greater
    Transmutation
    Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 8

    This spell works like Lesser Celerity, except the recipient may make an additional full round action instead.
    Last edited by Sgt. Cookie; 2012-03-03 at 07:09 AM.
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    Default Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]

    does this mean on his next turn?
    It's actually less powerful than the current ones, but it's pretty strong anyway
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    Default Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]

    Yes, I do mean on the recipient's next turn.

    Let me go clear that up...
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    Default Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]

    So it's now a way of breaking casters (and their allies if they decide to help someone else feel less useless) even more when it comes to action economy, instead of getting actions in sooner.

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    Default Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]

    I hear about celerity a lot, and I fully admit that I may not be understanding all the issues at play here, so if I'm missing something then it's probably because I don't really know the answers to the following:
    What was the original intent of the spell, and what was it's actual effect?


    My initial reaction is to just say: what if we changed the casting time on regular Celerity and Greater Celerity to one standard action instead of one swift action? That way, at the normal version of the spell the cleric is basically granting his turn to another player, which doesn't gain you anything in TOTAL actions, but may help situationally, and you still get a net gain (though less of one) at the Greater Celerity level, which makes more sense for a level 8 spell.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2012-03-01 at 11:28 AM.
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    Default Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    So it's now a way of breaking casters (and their allies if they decide to help someone else feel less useless) even more when it comes to action economy, instead of getting actions in sooner.
    True, but it is no longer an auto win button. A broken action economy is better than no actions at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    I hear about celerity a lot, and I fully admit that I may not be understanding all the issues at play here, so if I'm missing something then it's probably because I don't really know the answers to the following:
    What was the original intent of the spell, and what was it's actual effect?
    Spend an immediate action to auto-win (I.e, gain a move action, lesser celerity, standard action, celerity, or full round action.). It's from the PhBII.

    My initial reaction is to just say: what if we changed the casting time on regular Celerity and Greater Celerity to one standard action instead of one swift action? That way, at the normal version of the spell the cleric is basically granting his turn to another player, which doesn't gain you anything in TOTAL actions, but may help situationally, and you still get a net gain (though less of one) at the Greater Celerity level, which makes more sense for a level 8 spell.
    It's an arcane spell, not a divine one.

    I'm not really sure that would have the intended effect. For Greater Celerity, yes that does work better. For normal, not so much.
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    Default Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    I hear about celerity a lot, and I fully admit that I may not be understanding all the issues at play here, so if I'm missing something then it's probably because I don't really know the answers to the following:
    What was the original intent of the spell, and what was it's actual effect?
    Celerity- immediate action casting time, get a standard action. Dazed on your next turn, no save. Basically, if you get attacked, interrupt the attack and teleport away, or shoot someone in the face, or SoD. Celerity is like having a Contingent Spell on a stick.

    My initial reaction is to just say: what if we changed the casting time on regular Celerity and Greater Celerity to one standard action instead of one swift action? That way, at the normal version of the spell the cleric is basically granting his turn to another player, which doesn't gain you anything in TOTAL actions, but may help situationally, and you still get a net gain (though less of one) at the Greater Celerity level, which makes more sense for a level 8 spell.
    That completely negates the purpose of the original spell, though it is an interesting concept.

    So it's now a way of breaking casters (and their allies if they decide to help someone else feel less useless) even more when it comes to action economy, instead of getting actions in sooner.
    It's much less broken this way. I'm all for casters not getting to interrupt the DM's turn. Let the DM fight how he needs to, and let him get the drop on the wizard if he earned the right to.

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    Default Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt. Cookie View Post
    True, but it is no longer an auto win button. A broken action economy is better than no actions at all.
    True, but there are other ways to fix that. The best (though not the easiest) would be to make it so you can't spend even an FRA to get a reasonable chance of winning immediately. Another would be to make it so it can't be used until after your first move, even if you're not flat-footed for some other reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    It's much less broken this way. I'm all for casters not getting to interrupt the DM's turn. Let the DM fight how he needs to, and let him get the drop on the wizard if he earned the right to.
    Better idea to accomplish that: You can't use Celerity until you have had a turn, even if you would be not-flat-footed for some other reason.

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    Default Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt. Cookie View Post
    True, but it is no longer an auto win button. A broken action economy is better than no actions at all.
    True, but there are other ways to fix that. The best (though not the easiest) would be to make it so you can't spend even an FRA to get a reasonable chance of winning immediately. Another would be to make it so it can't be used until after your first move, even if you're not flat-footed for some other reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    It's much less broken this way. I'm all for casters not getting to interrupt the DM's turn. Let the DM fight how he needs to, and let him get the drop on the wizard if he earned the right to.
    Better idea to accomplish that: You can't use Celerity until you have had a turn, even if you would be not-flat-footed for some other reason.

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    Default Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    Better idea to accomplish that: You can't use Celerity until you have had a turn, even if you would be not-flat-footed for some other reason.
    A) That makes no sense, if you're not flat-footed, you're not flat-footed.

    B) That doesn't help at all. That helps the DM get his precious surprise round but the rest of combat is still run by the wizard. Seriously, interrupting turns is the most annoying, game-slowing mechanic WotC has come up with. The DM sits through 6 turns of people killing his dudes and finally he has a chance to run his 10 other guys and the wizard says "Nope. I want to cast a spell."

    I'm just saying it's not fair. Not to the other players and certainly not to the DM. Heck, it's not even fair to the wizard because now if the DM wants to actually attack the wizard while he knows the wizard has celerity prepared he has to drop him in an antimagic field first, and take away all of the wizard's class features just to prevent him from using the one broken one.

    As the fix is now, with the whole "Get an extra action, but on your turn", it's pretty much just the arcane White Raven Tactics, which is fine.

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    Default Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    A) That makes no sense, if you're not flat-footed, you're not flat-footed.
    "Flat-footed" represents that you're caught unawares and can't get moving fast enough to defend yourself. This is a question of moving fast enough to act, which is somewhat more and so might not be granted by Foresight.

    B) That doesn't help at all. That helps the DM get his precious surprise round but the rest of combat is still run by the wizard.[/quote]

    Yes, but that's not Celerity's fault.

    Seriously, interrupting turns is the most annoying, game-slowing mechanic WotC has come up with.
    It can be quite tactic-supporting, though, if done correctly...it should not, however, be done in a way that slows down the game. Some ideas are to require the player to interrupt to use it (i.e. if he takes time to think he loses his chance; obviously this won't work for play-by-post games) or to require it to be based on conditions spelled out ahead of time.

    I'm just saying it's not fair. Not to the other players
    Yeah, that sort of power should not be available to only some classes. Perhaps some classes more than others (in the remake I'm writing up, fighters, monks, rangers, and rogues get it more than casting classes and paladins), but everyone should get it.

    and certainly not to the DM.
    "Fair to the DM" in that sense is irrelevant, as the DM's job is to help the players have fun. (He'll likely have fun himself, but that's secondary.)

    Heck, it's not even fair to the wizard because now if the DM wants to actually attack the wizard while he knows the wizard has celerity prepared he has to drop him in an antimagic field first, and take away all of the wizard's class features just to prevent him from using the one broken one.
    No, he just has to throw something at the wizard that the wizard can't beat with a single spell.

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    Default Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    No, he just has to throw something at the wizard that the wizard can't beat with a single spell.
    I'm having a hard time imagining something he can throw at the wizard in a single turn that the wizard couldn't negate with the teleport spell (though generally he'll use dimension door instead)

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    Default Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]

    The fix my group uses:

    1st - instead of dazing, you just lose that action. Gain a standard, lose next standard and such. No way to be immune to it.

    2nd - Cannot be used before you have acted in an encounter and cannot be made contingent.

    I think auto-winning initiative is the biggest issue, followed by gaining extra actions by being immune to dazing. The wizard doesn't take much longer since he won't be casting a spell on his own turn (Celerity uses both the immediate + standard action slots so the wizard can't even quicken a spell).

    With this change it isn't even always worth using (assuming you have a lot of stuff that uses swift actions, some groups don't).

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    Default Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    I'm having a hard time imagining something he can throw at the wizard in a single turn that the wizard couldn't negate with the teleport spell (though generally he'll use dimension door instead)
    DD is limited range, so the enemy might be able to follow. Teleport is more of an issue...unless the first thing the DM throws at him is an assault on the secure location he was planning to teleport to. Also, running away from every enemy isn't much of a way to accomplish anything, and it's not too hard to make an enemy that the wizard can't one-shot but doesn't look any tougher than a typical enemy for that CR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magikeeper View Post
    The fix my group uses:

    1st - instead of dazing, you just lose that action. Gain a standard, lose next standard and such. No way to be immune to it.
    Clearly this is necessary.

    2nd - Cannot be used before you have acted in an encounter and cannot be made contingent.
    Definitely the right way to go (well, unless you're going to just ban it or change it into something else entirely.)

    With this change it isn't even always worth using (assuming you have a lot of stuff that uses swift actions, some groups don't).
    Even without uses for swift actions, it still costs a spell slot, which is better not wasted.

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    Default Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]

    Maybe we should consider moving this/these spells into the abjuration school; since from what I'm hearing their original intent was as a defensive measure, and that is what abjuration is supposed to be about. Plus, I think abjuration could use a little TLC, especially compared to some of it's siblings.

    Trying to keep in mind the intent of the spell, rather than the actual function, I'll take a stab at rewritting them; let me know what you think.

    Edit: updated regarding Seraphi's critique

    Celerity, Lesser
    Transmutation
    Level: Bard 2, Sorcerer/Wizard 2
    Components: V, S
    Casting time: 1 immediate action
    Range: Touch or Personal
    Duration: Instaneous
    You gain 1 move action, to be used immediately.
    You may cast only 1 spell with "Celerity" in it's name per round.

    [This basically just lets the caster physically run away from dangers, though I guess he could cast any other spells that have a casting time of 1 swift action or use some magic items. It would be easy enough to add a caveat that you cannot cast additional spells during this time, and/or to also have him lose his next move action, if necessary.]

    Celerity
    Transmutation
    Level: Bard 4, Sorcerer/Wizard 4
    Components: V, S
    Casting time: 1 immediate action
    Range: Touch or Personal
    Duration: Instaneous
    You gain 1 standard action, to be used immediately. On your next turn, you are unable to act, as if you where dazed. Immunity or resistance to normal dazing effects cannot prevent this.
    You may cast only 1 spell with "Celerity" in it's name per round.

    [You essentially pay your next full round action to gain a standard action now. Again, we can add on any other caveats that we need to, as necessary.]

    Celerity, Greater
    Transmutation
    Level: Bard 6, Sorcerer/Wizard 8
    Components: V, S
    Casting time: 1 immediate action
    Range: Touch or Personal
    Duration: Instaneous
    You gain 1 full round action, to be used immediately. On your next turn, you are unable to act, as if you where dazed. Immunity or resistance to normal dazing effects cannot prevent this.
    You may cast only 1 spell with "Celerity" in it's name per round.

    [There isn't actually an action-cost to the spell at this level, since you simply get your next full-round action sooner. Anything that is used to limit the other versions of the spell can be used here, or we could find some other effect, such as chaging "dazed" to "stunned" or other penalties if it's still too powerful.]
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2012-09-10 at 10:18 PM.
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    Default Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    Maybe we should consider moving this/these spells into the abjuration school; since their original intent was as a defensive measure, and that is what abjuration is supposed to be about. Plus, I think abjuration could use a little TLC, especially compared to some of it's siblings.
    They're not abjuration. Just because their intent is defensive in nature, it doesn't make it an abjuration spell. (See also: mage armor, iron body, fire shield)

    Temporal manipulation has always been transmutation, for some reason. (Time stop). And celerity is just about you being able to move faster (expeditious retreat), so it makes sense in the transmutation school.

    Your actual spell fixes look solid.

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    Default Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]

    There's nothing wrong with Sgt. Cookie's spells as written.
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    Default Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    There's nothing wrong with Sgt. Cookie's spells as written.
    I wouldn't go that far. After all, they have no duration. Should be either instantaneous or 1 round, I'm partial to the latter.

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    Default Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    I wouldn't go that far. After all, they have no duration. Should be either instantaneous or 1 round, I'm partial to the latter.
    Touche. 1 round duration would be the most correct, with text in the spell's description detailing that the spell's effect lasts for 1 round or until the extra action is taken which discharges the spell.
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    Default Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]

    We just ban the celerity line outright instead of trying to fix it. But you've made a good effort here.

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    Default Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]

    UPDATE:

    Added in a duration.
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    Default Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]

    One thing that I've been thinking about. I think there might still need to be more limits on the regular Celerity spell for what spells you can cast while using it. The early-action you get is pretty good when you first learn the spell, but it really starts to shine when you get higher level spell slots to use.
    When your most effective spells are all of 7th, 8th, and 9th level, there are still quite a few of them that only take a standard action to cast. Since you likely will have plenty of spare 4th and 5th level spell slots by then, you can fill up most of them with Celerity, and turn nearly every top-level spell into an immediate cast-time.
    Gaining a full-round action doesn't seem to be nearly as important, by comparison, especially when you have to sacrifice a 8th level spell slot to get it.

    I know it's kind of unorthodox, but what if I added a caveat that no 7th level spell or higher can be cast while using Celerity?
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2012-03-09 at 09:43 PM.
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