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2012-03-01, 09:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]
This is a fix I have had going around in my head for a while now, so here it is:
Celerity, lesser
Transmutation
Level: Bard 2, Sorcerer/Wizard 2
Components: V, S
Casting time: 1 swift action
Range: One touched or Personal
Target: One ally or You
Duration: 1 round
You speed up the movements of one person, letting them do more than normal.
On the recipient's next turn, he may make an additional move action on top of any others he is entitled to have. Only one additional move action may be gained from celerity at any one moment. The spell lasts for one round or until the extra action is taken.
Celerity
Transmutation
Level: Bard 4, Sorcerer/Wizard 4
This spell works like Lesser Celerity, except the recipient may make an additional standard action instead.
Celerity, greater
Transmutation
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 8
This spell works like Lesser Celerity, except the recipient may make an additional full round action instead.Last edited by Sgt. Cookie; 2012-03-03 at 07:09 AM.
Open the lid and snatch a homebrewed treat from Cookie's Jar
Ponytar by Dirtytabs
Originally Posted by DudeWhyAreAllTheNamesTaken(Imgur)
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2012-03-01, 09:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]
does this mean on his next turn?
It's actually less powerful than the current ones, but it's pretty strong anywayOriginally Posted by actual quote from this forum
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2012-03-01, 09:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]
Yes, I do mean on the recipient's next turn.
Let me go clear that up...Open the lid and snatch a homebrewed treat from Cookie's Jar
Ponytar by Dirtytabs
Originally Posted by DudeWhyAreAllTheNamesTaken(Imgur)
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2012-03-01, 10:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]
So it's now a way of breaking casters (and their allies if they decide to help someone else feel less useless) even more when it comes to action economy, instead of getting actions in sooner.
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2012-03-01, 11:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]
I hear about celerity a lot, and I fully admit that I may not be understanding all the issues at play here, so if I'm missing something then it's probably because I don't really know the answers to the following:
What was the original intent of the spell, and what was it's actual effect?
My initial reaction is to just say: what if we changed the casting time on regular Celerity and Greater Celerity to one standard action instead of one swift action? That way, at the normal version of the spell the cleric is basically granting his turn to another player, which doesn't gain you anything in TOTAL actions, but may help situationally, and you still get a net gain (though less of one) at the Greater Celerity level, which makes more sense for a level 8 spell.Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2012-03-01 at 11:28 AM.
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2012-03-01, 12:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]
True, but it is no longer an auto win button. A broken action economy is better than no actions at all.
Spend an immediate action to auto-win (I.e, gain a move action, lesser celerity, standard action, celerity, or full round action.). It's from the PhBII.
My initial reaction is to just say: what if we changed the casting time on regular Celerity and Greater Celerity to one standard action instead of one swift action? That way, at the normal version of the spell the cleric is basically granting his turn to another player, which doesn't gain you anything in TOTAL actions, but may help situationally, and you still get a net gain (though less of one) at the Greater Celerity level, which makes more sense for a level 8 spell.
I'm not really sure that would have the intended effect. For Greater Celerity, yes that does work better. For normal, not so much.Open the lid and snatch a homebrewed treat from Cookie's Jar
Ponytar by Dirtytabs
Originally Posted by DudeWhyAreAllTheNamesTaken(Imgur)
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2012-03-01, 12:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]
Celerity- immediate action casting time, get a standard action. Dazed on your next turn, no save. Basically, if you get attacked, interrupt the attack and teleport away, or shoot someone in the face, or SoD. Celerity is like having a Contingent Spell on a stick.
My initial reaction is to just say: what if we changed the casting time on regular Celerity and Greater Celerity to one standard action instead of one swift action? That way, at the normal version of the spell the cleric is basically granting his turn to another player, which doesn't gain you anything in TOTAL actions, but may help situationally, and you still get a net gain (though less of one) at the Greater Celerity level, which makes more sense for a level 8 spell.
So it's now a way of breaking casters (and their allies if they decide to help someone else feel less useless) even more when it comes to action economy, instead of getting actions in sooner.
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2012-03-01, 08:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]
True, but there are other ways to fix that. The best (though not the easiest) would be to make it so you can't spend even an FRA to get a reasonable chance of winning immediately. Another would be to make it so it can't be used until after your first move, even if you're not flat-footed for some other reason.
Better idea to accomplish that: You can't use Celerity until you have had a turn, even if you would be not-flat-footed for some other reason.
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2012-03-01, 08:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]
True, but there are other ways to fix that. The best (though not the easiest) would be to make it so you can't spend even an FRA to get a reasonable chance of winning immediately. Another would be to make it so it can't be used until after your first move, even if you're not flat-footed for some other reason.
Better idea to accomplish that: You can't use Celerity until you have had a turn, even if you would be not-flat-footed for some other reason.
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2012-03-01, 08:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]
A) That makes no sense, if you're not flat-footed, you're not flat-footed.
B) That doesn't help at all. That helps the DM get his precious surprise round but the rest of combat is still run by the wizard. Seriously, interrupting turns is the most annoying, game-slowing mechanic WotC has come up with. The DM sits through 6 turns of people killing his dudes and finally he has a chance to run his 10 other guys and the wizard says "Nope. I want to cast a spell."
I'm just saying it's not fair. Not to the other players and certainly not to the DM. Heck, it's not even fair to the wizard because now if the DM wants to actually attack the wizard while he knows the wizard has celerity prepared he has to drop him in an antimagic field first, and take away all of the wizard's class features just to prevent him from using the one broken one.
As the fix is now, with the whole "Get an extra action, but on your turn", it's pretty much just the arcane White Raven Tactics, which is fine.
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2012-03-01, 10:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]
"Flat-footed" represents that you're caught unawares and can't get moving fast enough to defend yourself. This is a question of moving fast enough to act, which is somewhat more and so might not be granted by Foresight.
B) That doesn't help at all. That helps the DM get his precious surprise round but the rest of combat is still run by the wizard.[/quote]
Yes, but that's not Celerity's fault.
Seriously, interrupting turns is the most annoying, game-slowing mechanic WotC has come up with.
I'm just saying it's not fair. Not to the other players
and certainly not to the DM.
Heck, it's not even fair to the wizard because now if the DM wants to actually attack the wizard while he knows the wizard has celerity prepared he has to drop him in an antimagic field first, and take away all of the wizard's class features just to prevent him from using the one broken one.
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2012-03-01, 10:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]
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2012-03-01, 11:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]
The fix my group uses:
1st - instead of dazing, you just lose that action. Gain a standard, lose next standard and such. No way to be immune to it.
2nd - Cannot be used before you have acted in an encounter and cannot be made contingent.
I think auto-winning initiative is the biggest issue, followed by gaining extra actions by being immune to dazing. The wizard doesn't take much longer since he won't be casting a spell on his own turn (Celerity uses both the immediate + standard action slots so the wizard can't even quicken a spell).
With this change it isn't even always worth using (assuming you have a lot of stuff that uses swift actions, some groups don't).
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2012-03-01, 11:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]
DD is limited range, so the enemy might be able to follow. Teleport is more of an issue...unless the first thing the DM throws at him is an assault on the secure location he was planning to teleport to. Also, running away from every enemy isn't much of a way to accomplish anything, and it's not too hard to make an enemy that the wizard can't one-shot but doesn't look any tougher than a typical enemy for that CR.
Clearly this is necessary.
2nd - Cannot be used before you have acted in an encounter and cannot be made contingent.
With this change it isn't even always worth using (assuming you have a lot of stuff that uses swift actions, some groups don't).
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2012-03-02, 10:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]
Maybe we should consider moving this/these spells into the abjuration school; since from what I'm hearing their original intent was as a defensive measure, and that is what abjuration is supposed to be about. Plus, I think abjuration could use a little TLC, especially compared to some of it's siblings.
Trying to keep in mind the intent of the spell, rather than the actual function, I'll take a stab at rewritting them; let me know what you think.
Edit: updated regarding Seraphi's critique
Celerity, Lesser
Transmutation
Level: Bard 2, Sorcerer/Wizard 2
Components: V, S
Casting time: 1 immediate action
Range: Touch or Personal
Duration: Instaneous
You gain 1 move action, to be used immediately.
You may cast only 1 spell with "Celerity" in it's name per round.
[This basically just lets the caster physically run away from dangers, though I guess he could cast any other spells that have a casting time of 1 swift action or use some magic items. It would be easy enough to add a caveat that you cannot cast additional spells during this time, and/or to also have him lose his next move action, if necessary.]
Celerity
Transmutation
Level: Bard 4, Sorcerer/Wizard 4
Components: V, S
Casting time: 1 immediate action
Range: Touch or Personal
Duration: Instaneous
You gain 1 standard action, to be used immediately. On your next turn, you are unable to act, as if you where dazed. Immunity or resistance to normal dazing effects cannot prevent this.
You may cast only 1 spell with "Celerity" in it's name per round.
[You essentially pay your next full round action to gain a standard action now. Again, we can add on any other caveats that we need to, as necessary.]
Celerity, Greater
Transmutation
Level: Bard 6, Sorcerer/Wizard 8
Components: V, S
Casting time: 1 immediate action
Range: Touch or Personal
Duration: Instaneous
You gain 1 full round action, to be used immediately. On your next turn, you are unable to act, as if you where dazed. Immunity or resistance to normal dazing effects cannot prevent this.
You may cast only 1 spell with "Celerity" in it's name per round.
[There isn't actually an action-cost to the spell at this level, since you simply get your next full-round action sooner. Anything that is used to limit the other versions of the spell can be used here, or we could find some other effect, such as chaging "dazed" to "stunned" or other penalties if it's still too powerful.]Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2012-09-10 at 10:18 PM.
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2012-03-02, 11:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]
They're not abjuration. Just because their intent is defensive in nature, it doesn't make it an abjuration spell. (See also: mage armor, iron body, fire shield)
Temporal manipulation has always been transmutation, for some reason. (Time stop). And celerity is just about you being able to move faster (expeditious retreat), so it makes sense in the transmutation school.
Your actual spell fixes look solid.
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2012-03-02, 07:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]
There's nothing wrong with Sgt. Cookie's spells as written.
Homebrew
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SpoilerSpecial Thanks: Kymme! You and your awesome avatarist skills have made me a Lore Warden in addition to King of Fighter Fixes!
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2012-03-02, 08:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]
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2012-03-02, 09:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]
Homebrew
Other Stuff
SpoilerSpecial Thanks: Kymme! You and your awesome avatarist skills have made me a Lore Warden in addition to King of Fighter Fixes!
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2012-03-03, 12:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]
We just ban the celerity line outright instead of trying to fix it. But you've made a good effort here.
Check out my Arboreal Halflings and my Megaliths of Zidydrion.
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2012-03-03, 07:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]
UPDATE:
Added in a duration.Open the lid and snatch a homebrewed treat from Cookie's Jar
Ponytar by Dirtytabs
Originally Posted by DudeWhyAreAllTheNamesTaken(Imgur)
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2012-03-09, 09:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Celerity fix [3.5, spell, fix, PEACH]
One thing that I've been thinking about. I think there might still need to be more limits on the regular Celerity spell for what spells you can cast while using it. The early-action you get is pretty good when you first learn the spell, but it really starts to shine when you get higher level spell slots to use.
When your most effective spells are all of 7th, 8th, and 9th level, there are still quite a few of them that only take a standard action to cast. Since you likely will have plenty of spare 4th and 5th level spell slots by then, you can fill up most of them with Celerity, and turn nearly every top-level spell into an immediate cast-time.
Gaining a full-round action doesn't seem to be nearly as important, by comparison, especially when you have to sacrifice a 8th level spell slot to get it.
I know it's kind of unorthodox, but what if I added a caveat that no 7th level spell or higher can be cast while using Celerity?Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2012-03-09 at 09:43 PM.