Demi-nobles are a thing, right?

[Draconi Redfir]

So in my shackled city game, I’ve been trying to get across that while my character is not a full noble (he did not roll the noble trait) his family is still a LITTLE noble, or demi-noble if you will, still higher then peasantry, but not quite as high as full nobility.

Now I’ve got to know... Demi-nobility is like an actual thing right? a noble who is just on the lower end of the nobility spectrum or something? So far the only use of the exact phrase i've seen is in the homestuck fandom for a blood- colour biased caste system, so I’m wondering if it's actually a phrase that's used in the real world, or if not, what it's real-world counterpart would be.


Mostly bringing this up because my character had to show some proof of nobility in order to get some masterwork fullplate forged by Cauldron's blacksmith, and while i provided some, he simply claimed it was "expired" and my DM made a motion that looked like the blacksmith crossing out the name of another noble and replacing it with my own family name after what I’m fairly sure was a hundred-platinum bribe.

While the "expired" family papers could be a possible plot/character twist (unlikely, but if so it fits due to my longshadow heritage) I’d still like some proof that my claims of lower-end nobility is still a feasible thing, but unfortunately none of my google searches have turned up anything that works. Can anybody help?


TL;DR: My character is what i call a "Demi-noble", someone who's family is higher ranking then presents, but lower ranking then true nobility, I’ve tried to convey this to my DM several times, he doesn't seem to get it. Can anybody provide some links, proof, or better-wording to help convey what i mean?


As far as i know it's not particularly game-breaking, I’m not claiming any bonuses or anything from it, just that my family would attend some of the prestigious events that go on in the city. (i.e., they were noble enough to attend a guardsman's (another PC's) knighting ceremony, however they weren’t prestigious enough to get an invite to the flood-festival ball. (I figure the first invitations go to the highest nobles, the next are given randomly to the lower nobles (which mine just did not win) and the final few are given out as contest prizes.) So i can't really understand why my character’s papers wouldn't work.

[The-Mage-King]

Yep. Take a look at the aristocracy part of here.


I'd say you'd want to point out the rank Patrician, which is... Basically between Knight and Esquire. Either that or Gentleman, which is pretty much the bottom of the social ladder, barely above serfs.

[Elemental]

I'm not sure if this is exactly what you need to know...
But if I remember correctly from my study of history, there was a clear division between the nobility who actually had land, and the unlanded nobility.
The unlanded nobility had a title and belonged, however distantly, to a noble house, but it didn't give them any advantage whatsoever.
It's all very well and good to be the third cousin of the Duke's brother's wife, but it doesn't really mean anything.

Plus, there is the option of holding dominion over an unimportant piece of land. Land does not mean wealth or authority if it's a fragment of arid wasteland.

Edit: Or, just ignore everything I said, and just go with what The-Mage-King said, because it's the same thing, but better said.

[Knaight]

I'd also note the presence of a distinct merchant class, that came to particular prominence in Europe in the later Medieval period. With that said, a landless noble is probably the best bet.

[Yora]

I believe "Gentry" is the term you are looking for. But depending on the setting, "old money" merchant families may also be an alternative. "Money-nobles" we call them today in Germany, but I'm quite sure that was not an actual term until recently.

[Bagelson]

He could be the child of a noble with a non-hereditary title.

[Tvtyrant]

I believe "Gentry" is the term you are looking for. But depending on the setting, "old money" merchant families may also be an alternative. "Money-nobles" we call them today in Germany, but I'm quite sure that was not an actual term until recently.

France had a lot of types of nobility such as "Noblesse de robe" or "Noblesse de lettres" that would fall under this type of category. Or Russian Service Nobility (they served in the bureaucracy), etc.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Demi-noble as a term doesn't exist no. But the concept most certainly does. But also keep in mind that it's your DM's world and if he says anything under rank X isn't even considered noble in any way, shape or form, then they're not and you will just have to accept that. Of course there's nothing saying your character still can't be proud of his family history and think it should count for more than it does, but keep in mind that you're playing a fantasy game (I assume) not an historical game, thus your DM is free to ignore history as he sees fit and make up his own.

[nedz]

Talk to your DM - this is very totally setting dependant.

IRL Nobility has been around for a few thousand years and has existed in many cultures. It is often very different from one place to another, and from one time to another.

[Draconi Redfir]

Thanks for the help guys, Still can't quite find the link i need to point out what i mean, it'd be nice if there was a direct definition or something stating exactly were Gentry or Patrician was on the nobility-spectrum. I'll keep looking though, let me know if any of you find/know of something that could help.

[Coidzor]

Merchant Princes, Bankers, the Bourgeoisie, and the oligarchs of city states, you mean?

[LibraryOgre]

There's a few types of lesser nobility. Knights, hereditary squires, those with significant wealth or influence but no actual title.

You might also consider bastards. If their parent is a person of import, and they have taken care of their offspring, you'll have people who are not technically nobles, but they get a fair amount of respect because of their parentage (and a fair amount of abuse because of their unlawful parentage), and have sponsors to appointments that do not need to be strictly high noble.

[Draconi Redfir]

Trade or merchant nobles i don't think would really work out, the family in question is mostly one of Morticians who just joined the city of Cauldron early in it's development and helped with it's construction.

[Cerlis]

in the book Through Wolf's Eyes, what i found intriguing was all the political machinations.

The king is getting old and is suppose to name an heir. His own son is dead so he must pick another member of royalty

It was very interesting because of the various reasons why certian people where candidates and others weren't. For instance any of his nephews and nieces (adults in their 30s and 40s) COULD be the next rulers. But the main reason they weren't going to be picked was because of that age. You see you want the next rulers to be able to have heirs too and live many years so that the kingdom is in flux. So it was ideal to have younger heir.

Some of the grand nieces and nephews where the prime choices. Young and healthy. The ones who where closer blood wise where greater candidates. but you couldnt ignore the ones who lived in this certian region of the country, because their location meant they had a hand over most of the kingdoms trade so they could bring the most money into the treasuring.

THen there was the idea of bringing unity versus splitting the family/kingdom. They knew that choosing certian members would alienate others. The evil battleaxe convinces her son to propose to his (2nd) cousin . This is a wise move, as her family is more prestigious and well liked, while his is more rich. And by having two people of noble blood marry, that would mean fully noble children. Thus making them a prime choice for being heir.

The drama happened because one of the lesser cousins, who's only real value was owning the kingdoms stables and horse trade, went to the wild where the king's son and the son's family migrated and died.

He found the main character, which he believed to be the daughter that they barely knew about before the son and his colony disappeared.

Now if she WAS the daughter, then she was basically the kings granddaughter. A direct heir to the throne. However he couldnt just outright name her that, because if she wasnt he'd just be giving the throne to some peasant.

However, either way, the cousin who looked for her officially adopted her. and though it would have been a bold move to name her Heir, the fact that she was now an official member of nobility (through adoption) and the fact that she was a hero of the nation and personally loved by the king (who either way, viewed her like a granddaughter), could have still been a candidate.

but the fact that she might be proved to be the heir and all the other things makes the hornets nest buzz. the evil family member backstabs and ends up a villian, attempting to narrow down the possible candidates. while two couples form that seem to be prime candidates as a royal couple.

All the while Firekeeper looks amazed at the great differences, and even more, simularities between the noble's actions and a pack of wolves who raised her.

[Jay R]

Here's a woefully incomplete wikipedia link on the petty nobility.

It varied by country. In France, the least bit of noble blood makes you fully noble, which is (part of) why France was the center of stupid dueling.

In England, the third son of the third son of the third son of a duke might be a complete commoner. (Some of Queen Elizabeth's kin are commoners.)

In the Italian Renaissance, there were four levels of nobility, the names of which I can't remember. The lowest level was anyone who had served in the military for twenty years. (See The Point of Honor in Sixteenth Century Italy, by Frederick Bryson.)

I recommend that you make it whatever you want it to be, as part of the culture you're creating, and call it the petty nobility.

[Coidzor]

Trade or merchant nobles i don't think would really work out, the family in question is mostly one of Morticians who just joined the city of Cauldron early in it's development and helped with it's construction.

Well, in that case, they should basically be old money with fingers in many pies and likely have interests beyond just the undertaking industry in the city anyway, one offshoot of which would conceivably be business enterprise in addition to being landlords, banking, and money lending.

[MickJay]

There used to be, for a period of time, a social class in Poland (singular for a representative "panosza") who ranked between the knights and free men. The knights were, at least from legal perspective, all 'nobility', there was no distinction between them (save for the function some of them may have been performing for the Crown; legally, though, they all had the same rights and privileges). Panosze, for the most part, eventually became full knights/nobles. In that system, they were to nobles something akin to gentry, but the on one hand egalitarian and on the other exclusive class of nobles did not really allow for 'semi-nobles'.

[Draconi Redfir]

Here's a woefully incomplete wikipedia link on the petty nobility.

Hmmm this could work well, it says the petty nobles were put in charge of specific services, could be my character’s family is a petty-noble family in charge of taking care of the dead or something.

[Mewtarthio]

Talk to your DM - this is very totally setting dependant.

So long as everyone involved is human (or at least analagous to human in their psychology), there's going to be some sort of social ladder. Even if the world is divided into discrete "full noble" and "not noble" portions, there will still be "full" nobles at the bottom of the pecking order.