How would two fire elementals grapple?

[SirisC]

The system is adnd 2nd edition. We are facing fire elementals, I decide to transform into a fire elemental and wrestle it.

As a DM how would you handle this?

[The Glyphstone]

However two of any other creature would grapple, I think. Aren't fire elementals corporeal in 2nd Edition (i.e., they have physical bodies, that just happen to be made of really dense fire)?

[Spiryt]

I guess that chokes are out at least, no blood flow and no breathing....

[Zombimode]

The system is adnd 2nd edition. We are facing fire elementals, I decide to transform into a fire elemental and wrestle it.

As a DM how would you handle this?

Sadly, Fire Elementals in 2e are very ill-defined creatures.
There are several unclear points:

1. Are Fire Elementals corporal creatures, or do they share traits of incorporeal creatures?
2. Considering that Fire Elementals are made of fire, what effect does this have on attacks with natural weapons or grappling attempts against them?
3. What kind of resistance do Fire Elementals have against fire?

To 1) There is nothing explicit in the description, but they are described as big flames with creepy eyes. Since flames arent exactly solid, they could very well qualify for beeing treated as a gaseous creature (ie. any creature under the effect of a gaseous form, Crimson Death, Nishruus, Vampiric Mists etc.). Such creatures cant be grappled. BUT it is stated that any creature with a fire resistance of any sort or such creatures that use fire-based attacks themselves take less damage from the Fire Elementals attacks. This is a fairly marginal deduction however, just -3 on the damage roll of 3d8. This implies that the rest of the damage is NOT caused by fire and heat. That leaves the impression that Fire Elementals are at least solid enough to deliver a good punch.

To 2) Again, there is no word on this. But the fact that they are made of fire and thus constantly on flames can not be ignored so easily. Other creatures in a state of constant immolation could act as a precedent. Take the Balor for example. The demons flames will damage every creature in direct contact with it (like in a grapple). Furthermor all creatures that attack the Balor with their natural weapons also automaticly take fire damage. One could argue that similar should apply to Fire Elementals (maybe not 2d6 like the Balors demonic flames).

To 3) This is just a tangent, but it occured to me that it is not explicitly stated that Fire Elementals have any resistance against fire attacks. I would argue that since they are fire ELEMENTALS they have a flat-out immunity against all fire and heat based attacks. I would probably even go one step further and let them be healed through fire damage (thus mirroring their appearance in Baldurs Gate 2 where fire elementals have 125% fire resistance which is translated by the engine into healing them for 25%).


Conclusion? Personaly I would treat them like a gaseous creature. Further I would convert all of their melee damage into fire damage. Thirdly I would give them complete immunity against fire and heat based attacks and let them absorb fire damage on a rate of 1 point per damage dice.
As a consequens Fire Elementals would have no way of harming other fire elementals.

[Bagelson]

Well actually, two fires could theoretically deal damage to each other by being the better one at sucking all the oxygen from the air. Like how you can use explosives to put out fire.

Being that they possibly burn without fuel can both dissuade and encourage this theory.

Either way, I expect that it may possibly put out both of them and that it would be massively uncomfortable for anything breathing in the vicinity.

[motoko's ghost]

The concept of two fires fighting each other is pretty awesome and there may be a pun in there
I'd say just resolve it normally

[gkathellar]

I suspect they would take hold of each other, and wrestle for a dominant position with a mix of strength and skill.

[Traab]

They would combine, and it takes a will save to keep control of your character. If you fail you die. The rest of the party now has to face an even stronger fire elemental.

*EDIT* Take two lighters, then connect the flames. See how they join together into one larger flame? Thats what would happen. Only one mind can control the new unified fire elemental body.

[SirisC]

They would combine, and it takes a will save to keep control of your character. If you fail you die. The rest of the party now has to face an even stronger fire elemental.

This is what the DM ended up doing, and after absorbing a whole bunch of fire elementals & a fire moat, there were side effects when I transformed back into human.

[Tengu_temp]

I don't know how it'd work mechanically, but I'd say that it would be pretty hot.

[Traab]

This is what the DM ended up doing, and after absorbing a whole bunch of fire elementals & a fire moat, there were side effects when I transformed back into human.

Hmm, I probably wouldnt have let it go that far as a dm. I would have done something like, "With every fire elemental you absorb and survive taking over, the difficulty of absorbing more increases. The reason is that your body is getting too large for you to handle, its a bigger strain." So id add on modifiers that keep increasing. So say the first time you need a 10 on a d20 to maintain control. The next one requires a 13, then a 16, then a 19. I dont know what sort of effects you might have had in your case when you turned back, though im curious to hear what your dm did to you. :p

[Vknight]

Like this
It makes sense to me

[NinjaStylerobot]

Is how baby fire elementals are made.

[Occasional Sage]

How the fight would look from in- and outside.

[SirisC]

I dont know what sort of effects you might have had in your case when you turned back, though im curious to hear what your dm did to you. :p

Changed my hair, eyes, and fingernails to fire red, immune to fire, caused fire damage to anyone who hit with a melee attack, and could talk to other fires.

When I transformed into a fire elemental again, I retained the giant size from before, ended up taking advantage of that by getting myself swallowed then transforming.

Eventually, I was shot in the head and died and the fire burst out in a large explosion severely hurting the rest of the group and destroying most of my magical items; including the bag of holding we had the people we were protecting hiding in.

[Nero24200]

Well they do some physical damage from their attacks but they'll ignore the fire...so the fight would last longer than normal.

I don't think it would stop the fight from looking any less awesome though.

[Sipex]

I would've pushed for 'corporeal' if it were still an issue, just so you could tell the DM you'd like to pile drive or suplex the other fire elemental.

All so you can say something corny like "I fight fire with fire that suplexes the first fire."