OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

[SpaceBadger]

... and what is Yukyuk doing off-stage now that V is lying unconscious at the bottom of a pit trap? Still Dominated?

[Gift Jeraff]

1. That basically boils down to not wanting to be raised at all, which again I don't think is realistic. Besides, I'm not sure how insulting the Twelve Gods implies distrust of all gods.

"Luckily for me, I've never trusted authority figures, be they kings, presidents, or party leaders. Give a man enough power, and he's bound to abuse it, no matter how noble he thinks he is." That sentiment certainly applies to the OOTSiverse's gods.

Also, the gods allegedly created the Snarl out of petty recklessness (thus making them responsible for Kraagor's death), and one of the few gods who wasn't responsible is trying to harness it. That alone is enough for any of the Scribblers to distrust the gods in general, especially a paranoid authority-hater.

EDIT: It'd be great if the OOTS realizes the Draketooths would probably accept a resurrection from a Chaotic Good cleric of a god who didn't create the Snarl...like, say, Banjo.

[eilandesq]

"Luckily for me, I've never trusted authority figures, be they kings, presidents, or party leaders. Give a man enough power, and he's bound to abuse it, no matter how noble he thinks he is." That sentiment certainly applies to the OOTSiverse's gods.

Not to mention it applies rather blatantly to Girard and his baby-kidnapping family cult. I wonder what the Girard who recorded that message would think of where things are now.

[Smolder]

... and what is Yukyuk doing off-stage now that V is lying unconscious at the bottom of a pit trap? Still Dominated?

Preparing to sneak attack Belkar, would be my guess.

[Bengui]

Familicide is "broken" enough that it wouldn't really surprise me if it doesn't give a saving throw.

And anyway, probability doesn't work like that.

Considering the number of victims, I think the law of large numbers would apply.

[factotum]

... and what is Yukyuk doing off-stage now that V is lying unconscious at the bottom of a pit trap? Still Dominated?

Yes. Dominate Person has a duration measured in days, not hours, so it has to keep working while the caster is asleep (or trancing). You only actually need to "reinforce" the spell for 1 round per day to keep it going. (Even if you don't do this it just means the subject gets another saving throw, so they're not guaranteed to throw the spell off even then).

[Kish]

Point of order: he said those things, and he's an epic-level master of deception. That he said them doesn't mean he believed them, just that he wanted someone who knows about Soon and the paladins to believe that he believes them. He backed up those statements with an "attempt on Soon's life" that was laughably weak vs. an epic Paladin, after all.

"Laughably weak" because it didn't kill the Order, although it left Roy looking quite battered? Mm no. The member of the Order with the lowest hit points is documentedly able to survive a Meteor Swarm.

[pasadenajones]

So, V is alive with neg hitpoints? Xykon wins again.

What alignment do we speculate that the Draketooth clan has? Going with CN.

Serini had quite a crush on Gerard, if they somehow made a little half-halfling baby together V could have xx her eyes too. That would leave the last gate without it's defender. Although given the nature of her defense design, it might not matter so much.

[Jay R]

Some people seem to believe that, because Haley won the bet, her reasoning must be accurate. I don't think we have any evidence of that, in part because we have more information than she does.

So let's forget Haley's crazy talk and focus on what we know is actually true.

If the person that Durkon tried to raise was old enough to be a father (and his hair was beginning to turn gray), then he, his child, and the wife he was forced to abandon all died at the same moment.

I think this fact provides enough reason for him to want to stay where he is.

[Smolder]

What alignment do we speculate that the Draketooth clan has? Going with CN.

I would think that the fact they are trying to protect the gate would make them CG. CN is more suited to psychotic halfling rangers who don't care whose side they're on as long as they get to kill things occasionally.

[Kish]

I would think that the fact they are trying to protect the gate would make them CG. CN is more suited to psychotic halfling rangers who don't care whose side they're on as long as they get to kill things occasionally.

...You do realize Belkar is evil, right?...Right?

On the one hand, Girard traveled with Soon and Soon did not Fall. So he can't be evil.

On the other hand, everything we know about the Draketooths ranges from bad to horrible. (And occasionally the "morally meaningless," such as, "Doesn't want to be destroyed along with the rest of the world.")

So he must be Chaotic Neutral.

[Smolder]

...You do realize Belkar is evil, right?...Right?

You think Belkar is evil because of the sum of his actions, which is a fair measure, but to understand his motivation, you have to see it from his point of view. He kills out of boredom. He kills for XP, regardless of the alignment of the target, a neutral attitude. CN is the alignment of conscience-free psychopaths and nihilists who act without motive. CE is for real villains who are trying to take over the world or unmake existance. If Belkar was CE, he wouldn't even be in the Order. He would have betrayed them and sided with Xykon at the first opportunity. I suppose NE might fit, though.

[Kish]

You think Belkar is evil because of the sum of his actions, which is a fair measure, but to understand his motivation, you have to see it from his point of view. He kills out of boredom. He kills for XP. CN is the alignment of conscience-free psychopaths and nihilists who act without motive. CE is for real villains who are trying to take over the world or unmake existance. If Belkar was CE, he wouldn't even be in the Order. He would have betrayed them and sided with Xykon at the first opportunity.

Someone else can debate the specific case of Belkar. Wait, I changed my mind, I'll link to where someone already did.

Where on earth are you getting these preposterous alignment descriptions?

It's certainly not from any D&D book.

[Forikroder]

You think Belkar is evil because of the sum of his actions, which is a fair measure, but to understand his motivation, you have to see it from his point of view. He kills out of boredom. He kills for XP, regardless of the alignment of the target, a neutral attitude. CN is the alignment of conscience-free psychopaths and nihilists who act without motive. CE is for real villains who are trying to take over the world or unmake existance. If Belkar was CE, he wouldn't even be in the Order. He would have betrayed them and sided with Xykon at the first opportunity.

no that would be if he was chaotic evil genius hes chatoic dumb thug hes too dumb to realise how much hed get on Xykons side so ruined the first opportunity he got to switch sides (which he said he was going to accept) by throwing a cat at tsukiko becuase he though that would be fun

[Kish]

Smolder's...odd...concepts of alignment aside, I don't think agreeing to work for Xykon would exactly show intelligence. Look how Tsukiko wound up.

[Smolder]

Someone else can debate the specific case of Belkar. Wait, I changed my mind, I'll link to where someone already did.

Fair enough.

[Forikroder]

Smolder's...odd...concepts of alignment aside, I don't think agreeing to work for Xykon would exactly show intelligence. Look how Tsukiko wound up.

well thats less becuase she works with Xykon and more that she worked with (or more accurately against) Redcloak

though looking at Xykon in the dungeon of Dorukon certainly shows alot of the occupational hazards

[TowerWizard]

If Belkar was CE, he wouldn't even be in the Order. He would have betrayed them and sided with Xykon at the first opportunity.

I am sorry, but he is Chaotic Evil. There is support for this in so many strips. Why else would he have shielded himself against Miko's Detect Evil with both a lead sheet and a lawyer? Why else would he kill the trader gnome when they finally left Azure City? Or the guards when he escaped from prison with a smile on his face.

Besides, the reason why he has not left the group is because he did not realize he could. There are at least two strips where he regrets not siding with Evil.

Oh, and if you still don't believe, here is hard evidence.

[SaintRidley]

Also, in the LG afterlife, everyone worshiping the same pantheon ended up in the same line. Surely enough of the Draketooths were the same alignment/deity combo to know that they were dead together.

Assuming Chaotic types will line up, of course.

[Forikroder]

Assuming Chaotic types will line up, of course.

actually if we remember Roys escapades in the afterlife, the draketooths problably think theyve only been dead for a very short time, from there point of view they died then a short time after someones trying to raise them so its natural for some of them at least to connect the two as in "the group who jsut slaughtered out family is trying to ressurect ressurect " which is technically completely true

[Flame of Anor]

If Durkon has Scribe Scroll, maybe he could scribe a Resurrection and have Haley use UMD. Or does Haley not have UMD?

No dice...Haley is a worshiper of Thor as well.

I'll be very impressed if that was an intentional setup.

"Luckily for me, I've never trusted authority figures, be they kings, presidents, or party leaders. Give a man enough power, and he's bound to abuse it, no matter how noble he thinks he is." That sentiment certainly applies to the OOTSiverse's gods.

Fair enough. But Girard can't distrust everyone who worships any god. That would make him paranoid to the point of being completely crippled by it.

Oh wait. Dammit.

[SaintRidley]

actually if we remember Roys escapades in the afterlife, the draketooths problably think theyve only been dead for a very short time, from there point of view they died then a short time after someones trying to raise them so its natural for some of them at least to connect the two as in "the group who jsut slaughtered out family is trying to ressurect ressurect " which is technically completely true

There's the whole pre-screening thing before you get to have the mind-blowing fun that really rips you off your time-sense. That's what I was referring to.

[Forikroder]

There's the whole pre-screening thing before you get to have the mind-blowing fun that really rips you off your time-sense. That's what I was referring to.

no what ruins your sense of time is theres no way to judge it, you never get tired never get hungry never have to sleep the sun never moves your heart doesnt beat

everything we use to measure time jsut doesnt exist up there Roy wasnt having mind blowingly fun climbing the mountain but had no idea it took him so long

[Mantine]

no what ruins your sense of time is theres no way to judge it, you never get tired never get hungry never have to sleep the sun never moves your heart doesnt beat

Still, the "fun" part of it was specifically mentioned and factored.

[Forikroder]

Still, the "fun" part of it was specifically mentioned and factored.

i wonder if the Chaotic afterlife had a processing procedure though if the girards were all just plopped in there personal afterlife then this scenario makes even more sense

[toapat]

i wonder if the Chaotic afterlife had a processing procedure though if the girards were all just plopped in there personal afterlife then this scenario makes even more sense

in my oppinion there would be a line for the CX afterlives. they just A: are barely that, and B: they pull out people at random for the admissions paperwork. the admissions paperwork is more of a personality test completely unrelated to your past actions.

[Callista]

It's likely enough that the CN afterlife just grabs whoever is left after all the other alignments are done with theirs.

CG people would be welcomed by friends, family, and friendly strangers.

CE people would have to fight there way into someplace where only CE people would want to go--and even then might not make it to the top...

[Kish]

Fair enough.

I'd still love to know where you're getting your concepts of alignments.

[Morty]

...You do realize Belkar is evil, right?...Right?

On the one hand, Girard traveled with Soon and Soon did not Fall. So he can't be evil.

On the other hand, everything we know about the Draketooths ranges from bad to horrible. (And occasionally the "morally meaningless," such as, "Doesn't want to be destroyed along with the rest of the world.")

So he must be Chaotic Neutral.

I'd make a slight correction: he can't have been evil while travelling with Soon. It's possible that he was CN or even CG at the time of the adventures of the Order of the Scribble and became Evil later due to his paranoia and "ends justify the means" approach visible through the scheme used to propagate the Draketooth clan.

[Warren Dew]

You think Belkar is evil because of the sum of his actions, which is a fair measure, but to understand his motivation, you have to see it from his point of view. He kills out of boredom. He kills for XP, regardless of the alignment of the target, a neutral attitude. CN is the alignment of conscience-free psychopaths and nihilists who act without motive. CE is for real villains who are trying to take over the world or unmake existance. If Belkar was CE, he wouldn't even be in the Order. He would have betrayed them and sided with Xykon at the first opportunity. I suppose NE might fit, though.

Sounds like an excellent argument for alignments being based on actions rather than on intentions, to me.