OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

[Murray]

I don't want to reopen the "crazy alignment talk" (and for the record, I at least picked up on that immediately), but I do have to say that your post, particularly the part I bolded, suggests a misunderstanding of how the Giant, at least, approaches the alignment system.

Rich has stated a distaste for how the alignment pie chart has been used for such things, and it's probably a major theme in the comic. I'm just trying to focus more on game mechanics and less on genuine ethics and morals.

[Bulldog Psion]

My views were made in accordance with the limitations of the alignment pie chart, one that tends to allow PCs to commit genocide and murder simply because of an arbitrary statistic in a monster manual, and not in a real-world view of ethics. .

I find this type of statement to be quite irritating, given that the alignment system does not state this in the books, nor have I EVER seen it used that way in a game, either.

While it is true that goblins, evil dragons, etc. are usually shown as evil in the games I have seen, as a kind of default, I have NEVER in either a published or a homebrewed adventure seen the characters encouraged to commit "genocide" or "murder" simply because of an "arbitrary statistic". There is always a justification for their conflict with the creatures in question, even if that justification occupies only a small amount of "screen time" within the adventure -- which is, after all, mostly about people trying to have fun (heaven forbid!) with scenes of action and high peril.

I have ALWAYS seen humanoid opponents such as goblins, bugbears, etc. shown as being attacked by the PCs because they are raiding, killing, eating peasants, or carrying off slaves. There's no larger questioning of whether the humanoids would actually do this, but as depicted, killing them usually falls under the umbrella of "taking down as a hostile combatant who is wearing the finger bones of infants as a necklace and rescuing captives taken for slavery, eating, etc.". Not murder -- basically, war.

Non-humanoid opponents are usually shown as even more monstrous -- much more likely to be using humans and other sapient races as prey animals, slaves, or experimental victims.

I personally find dismissal of the PCs in a typical game as "mass murderers" to be histrionic, overblown, and quite frankly ridiculous, and dismissal of the alignment system on the same grounds to be be equally absurd.

[ti'esar]

Rich has stated a distaste for how the alignment pie chart has been used for such things, and it's probably a major theme in the comic. I'm just trying to focus more on game mechanics and less on genuine ethics and morals.

But the game mechanics don't support that either.

[skaddix]

I find this type of statement to be quite irritating, given that the alignment system does not state this in the books, nor have I EVER seen it used that way in a game, either.

While it is true that goblins, evil dragons, etc. are usually shown as evil in the games I have seen, as a kind of default, I have NEVER in either a published or a homebrewed adventure seen the characters encouraged to commit "genocide" or "murder" simply because of an "arbitrary statistic". There is always a justification for their conflict with the creatures in question, even if that justification occupies only a small amount of "screen time" within the adventure -- which is, after all, mostly about people trying to have fun (heaven forbid!) with scenes of action and high peril.

I have ALWAYS seen humanoid opponents such as goblins, bugbears, etc. shown as being attacked by the PCs because they are raiding, killing, eating peasants, or carrying off slaves. There's no larger questioning of whether the humanoids would actually do this, but as depicted, killing them usually falls under the umbrella of "taking down as a hostile combatant who is wearing the finger bones of infants as a necklace and rescuing captives taken for slavery, eating, etc.". Not murder -- basically, war.

Non-humanoid opponents are usually shown as even more monstrous -- much more likely to be using humans and other sapient races as prey animals, slaves, or experimental victims.

I personally find dismissal of the PCs in a typical game as "mass murderers" to be histrionic, overblown, and quite frankly ridiculous, and dismissal of the alignment system on the same grounds to be be equally absurd.

Well yes but for all u know that use to be Goblin land before the humans rolled in and forced them out. Or are the European explorers righteous and the native Americans evil for scapling them when its the european's who came and took territory that does not belong to them.

As for a Dragon, it might simply just view everything as prey so makes no distinction between humans or cattle. Now from the human perspective sure that is evil from the dragon perspective not so much.

Now to say that should not kill the goblins but just because they are killing your people does not inherently make them evil. That is the problem with D&D, it views everything from the human perspective so sure the goblins look evil but they are not necessarily evil.

[Bad Hair Day]

I personally find dismissal of the PCs in a typical game as "mass murderers" to be histrionic, overblown, and quite frankly ridiculous, and dismissal of the alignment system on the same grounds to be be equally absurd.

Thanks for sharing.

That doesn't mean that there aren't games where PC's are played as murderers for the fun of it. When I was a high schooler and we played D&D all the time, we once had an adventure where we were not the ones rescuing the princess, but the ones capturing her and bringing her to our leader, the anti-paladin. We had to come up with reasons to force her to marry him. The only trick that worked was after we burned a village and killed everyone in it and took her on a tour of the carnage. We then took her to her own home village and threatened to do it again. She relented. (We totally cribbed that idea from what General Tarquin did to Princess Leia in the movie "Star Wars.")

That was a fun campaign because it was a different set of problems we had to solve, and it was fun to play against type. And yes, there was a different kind of visceral thrill when we were stomping all over the village, a la Godzilla.

My Two Cents,

B.H.D.

Post Script: If you are the kind of person who thinks it is necessary for me to state that me and my buddies have all grown up into respectable adults with respectable families of our own in the 28 years since we "committed genocide in a fantasy game," then you probably aren't the kind of person I'd like to hang out with. But if you met me at a PTA meeting, I know just the things I'm suppose to say so that you think I'm a great guy who really understands your point of view and you are honored that I am the one teaching your precious little children...

[Bad Hair Day]

I just read the description for Resurrection and Raise Dead, and I don't see where the soul coming back gets to know the caster's alignment. Is this a common house rule I don't know about? Or did the author make this rule up for his world and use it previously and I missed it (I've read all the books/comics)?

Thanks,

B.H.D.

[t209]

I just read the description for Resurrection and Raise Dead, and I don't see where the soul coming back gets to know the caster's alignment. Is this a common house rule I don't know about? Or did the author make this rule up for his world and use it previously and I missed it (I've read all the books/comics)?

Thanks,

B.H.D.

I think the author meant the will of the dead since Draketooths feel paranoid and hated Lawful Character.
This is kinda Hypocrisy since they are kinda lawful zone (communal loyalty, cult)

[Warren Dew]

Funniest comic in a while.

"Close. My dad is a paranoid fool who will suffer just to spite someone."

Also,

"It stands to reason he taught his family the same way."

"Lawful types do have a tendency to try to make everyone else think the same way they do"

I guess it's not just lawful types … unless Haley thinks Girard was lawful, which seems unlikely.

[The MunchKING]

He might also be getting why he can't figure out his dad....

I didn't think about it that way, but it does make sense. And also why his dad keeps trying to pass his tyrannical ways on to Elan.

[The MunchKING]

I just read the description for Resurrection and Raise Dead, and I don't see where the soul coming back gets to know the caster's alignment. Is this a common house rule I don't know about? Or did the author make this rule up for his world and use it previously and I missed it (I've read all the books/comics)?

Thanks,

B.H.D.

Did you read the section on actually coming back from the dead?? I think that's where that rule is, but I'm not sure...

[Finagle]

Here's what I don't get:

Of all the Draketooths, why raise the fighter guy? There were many different people, some obviously magicians. Why not raise the most important-looking one? The guy in the middle of the death scene with the ponytail looks a lot Girard, it's probably Orrin. But instead, they try to raise the only non-magical Draketooth?

Yeah, sure, he could be multiclass or something. But still, raise a guy in wizardy robes at least.

[eilandesq]

Did you read the section on actually coming back from the dead?? I think that's where that rule is, but I'm not sure...

Yep--it's the last subsection in "Bringing Back The Dead" in the 3.5 Reference Document:

Revivification against One’s Will

A soul cannot be returned to life if it does not wish to be. A soul knows the name, alignment, and patron deity (if any) of the character attempting to revive it and may refuse to return on that basis.

Which, as someone suggested earlier, makes one wonder why knowing that a cleric of Thor was trying to raise them would make a Draketooth that paranoid, given that the Northern Gods and their followers weren't known associates with Soon or his paladins. Other than the "they're just really *that* paranoid" catch-all argument.

[irenicObserver]

I'm sure it's just the fact that he's Lawful.

[ti'esar]

(We totally cribbed that idea from what General Tarquin did to Princess Leia in the movie "Star Wars.")

General Tarquin is Elan's dad. The villain in Star Wars is Governor/Grand Moff Tarkin.

Perhaps you have too much OOTS on your brain?

[Warren Dew]

Here's what I don't get:

Of all the Draketooths, why raise the fighter guy?

Because the decision was made by Roy, a fighter guy?

[t209]

Here's what I don't get:

Of all the Draketooths, why raise the fighter guy? There were many different people, some obviously magicians. Why not raise the most important-looking one? The guy in the middle of the death scene with the ponytail looks a lot Girard, it's probably Orrin. But instead, they try to raise the only non-magical Draketooth?

Yeah, sure, he could be multiclass or something. But still, raise a guy in wizardy robes at least.

I think he's the oldest member of the Draketooths. Look at his Reeds Richard hair. He might be a patriach of the family which means that he is the one who knows about the temple the most.

[No brains]

Blathering: I felt the joke was rather weak. Any time any one says any thing, they are trying to make someone think as they do. Moreover, Roy was right: the argument was pointless and V has been gone a few too many panels.

I guess I'm of lawful alignment... 9_9

[Warren Dew]

I think he's the oldest member of the Draketooths. Look at his Reeds Richard hair. He might be a patriach of the family which means that he is the one who knows about the temple the most.

The white haired old lady looked older to me.

[Red XIV]

That's assuming he can cast Resurrection. We haven't seen him cast a spell above sixth level yet.

Given the way Malack effortlessly trounced Nale, who's presumably of the same level as Elan (and thus probably within 1 level in either direction of Durkon), it stands to reason that Malack is of a higher level than Durkon.

Failed resurrection was amusing. I expected it to be based on familicide actually, rather than just paranoia. It would take away from the familicide spell if any close friends or family could raise the dead person without epic magic of their own, but perhaps that would be too much.

Familicide's way overpowered even by Epic standards as it is. That would indeed be too much.

Raise Dead probably won't work on someone killed by Familicide. Raise Dead can't be used to raise someone killed by a Death Effect, which Familicide probably is. Resurrection doesn't have that limit, so Familicide would probably have to completely destroy the body, or somehow trap or destroy the soul, to prevent resurrection.

Of course, given that Durkon doesn't know what the cause of death was, he might have tried Raise Dead first. Lower cost in diamonds, after all. On the other hand, Raise Dead has a time limit of one day per caster level after the target's death. Since that was at least 14 days ago, and we think Durkon's level 14 IIRC, it might simply be too late for Raise Dead.

I wonder what role the Gate tracking device will play out in the story. For one, it should have alerted the Draketooth clan of three Gates being destroyed in a short amount of time, and inferring their own Gate would be endangered... Maybe that'll spawn some surprise protection measure?~

Lirian's Gate was destroyed many years ago.

I think he's the oldest member of the Draketooths. Look at his Reeds Richard hair. He might be a patriach of the family which means that he is the one who knows about the temple the most.

Maybe, but if that's what Roy was going with it's a fairly weak assumption. We also saw a bald spellcaster and a woman with completely white hair, who are most likely older than the fighter.

Not to mention that, given the continued use of illusions as the primary line of defense for the gate, it seems likely that a spellcaster would be in charge rather than a melee combatant.

[zimmerwald1915]

Given the way Malack effortlessly trounced Nale, who's presumably of the same level as Elan (and thus probably within 1 level in either direction of Durkon), it stands to reason that Malack is of a higher level than Durkon.

Which is an assumption. Malack effortlessly trounced Nale by making good use of two sixth-level spells. Durkon had trouble with Nale and Sabine because he made ineffective use of - and Thor sabotaged his use of - his seventh-level spells. Competence trumped spell level. The fight between Enor and Ganjii on the one hand and Haley, Elan, and Vaarsuvius also reminds us that competence trumps character level.

The evidence suggests that Malack is competent, not that he is of a higher level than Durkon.

[BriarHobbit]

It's interesting that designer flaws/choices triggered the destruction of the last three gates. A gate susceptible to fire. A gate with a mystic self destruct button. A gate destroyed by the fanaticism of one of its own guardians. Now, the defenses of the fourth gate are severely weakened. We will see if the pattern holds.

[Bad Hair Day]

General Tarquin is Elan's dad. The villain in Star Wars is Governor/Grand Moff Tarkin.

Perhaps you have too much OOTS on your brain?

It was deliberate. Tarquin. Tarkin. Same thing? Yeah? Meh.

I also said "Star Wars" to annoy those young whippersnappers who insist on calling it "Episode 4 A New Hope." It is an honest to god real policy in my classroom that if they call Star Wars anything but Star Wars, they lose points on the next quiz or homework.

[Flame of Anor]

Just saying, this sounds a bit too much like an excuse to prevent the "well, they can still resurrect them and fight the bad guys together" thing.
One would expect that at this point a Gate's safety would go beyond a grudge, expecially when you suddenly died for no apparent reason and everyone else may have fell the same. Expecially when they're all likely to have met in the afterlife all at the same time, given their same time of death and probably same alignment.

It's believable, but still smells a bit too much like plot excuse.

Question. Wouldn't Girard's gate defenders know that Durkon is a cleric of Thor. Raise dead spells also communicate your patron deity, and thus they should know it's not the sapphire guard rezzing them.

I'm not satisfied with this comic, for these reasons. It just feels contrived. I would bet anything that in a realistic scenario, at least one of the Draketooths would be willing to return--with so many reasons to:

• It's obviously not Soon's men if they're worshipping Thor
• They should do whatever it takes to protect the Gate
• It's only natural to be really curious about what could have happened

But Durkon probably won't try any of the others, or if he does it'll be passed off with "oh, it didn't work for them either". This is honestly the first time I've ever felt this way about OotS, but if it happens the way I've said it will be not just bad in the story but bad writing.

It was deliberate. Tarquin. Tarkin. Same thing? Yeah? Meh.

No. He's named after the Roman kings. Check the Giant's Quote Compendium thread for where he says so.

[M84]

It's interesting that designer flaws/choices triggered the destruction of the last three gates. A gate susceptible to fire. A gate with a mystic self destruct button. A gate destroyed by the fanaticism of one of its own guardians. Now, the defenses of the fourth gate are severely weakened. We will see if the pattern holds.

The last gate's defenses are a bunch of huge monsters. Simple, but effective. Unless the invader also has a powerful monster at his beck and call, like a certain MitD.

[cc_kizz]

Elan is just such a sweet character.

As for the height of the gate condition indicators, I imagine it's just a perspective variance.

This story is so epic! I can't wait (but can!) to find out how it ends.

[JCarter426]

Wow, Durkon actually prepared the right spell. I'm impressed. So, Speak with Dead next?

Is this the first time we've seen Roy or Haley actually pay after one of their bets?

The colors on the pie chart alert system were used to represent the gates before. The whole thing bears semblance to the original revelation of the gates. And it looks very ominous indeed.

It's possible that not all of the Draketooth clan would be averse to being resurrected by a lawful good character. In particular, the small girl shown at the bottom right corner of the last panel in strip 841 is probably too young to have developed any deep-seated ideological convictions yet. However, if they can communicate with each other in the afterlife as Roy could with his dead relatives, the group may well be able to persuade any particular one of them to refuse the resurrection. The small girl may be especially susceptible to this.

Of course, if they have no more diamond dust or if Familicide is resurrection-proof this is moot anyway.

It's possible the girl can't be resurrected - on account of her Constitution being too low, for example.

[2xMachina]

: Lawfuls tend to force people to think the same way
, : No we don't. Stop thinking that way.

[eilandesq]

It's interesting that designer flaws/choices triggered the destruction of the last three gates. A gate susceptible to fire. A gate with a mystic self destruct button. A gate destroyed by the fanaticism of one of its own guardians. Now, the defenses of the fourth gate are severely weakened. We will see if the pattern holds.

It already has, really--though in theory the OotS could salvage things long enough to find a new guardian. Girard's paranoia led to his trusting only his blood relatives as guardians of the gate, which made Familicide a 100% effective method for annihilating them and the magic that hid the gate.*

*--given the habits of dragons regarding breeding with anything with a pulse, Familicide may well have taken out a substantial portion of the guardians of Kraagor's Gate as well--but we won't know until later.

[luc258]

I'm a bit surprised that three good aligned people spend ten minutes casting ressurection instead of going after their team mate who is obviously not hirself from something and just run off into a pyramid that was built to be a deathtrap for invaders.

[RMS Oceanic]

I'm a bit surprised that three good aligned people spend ten minutes casting ressurection instead of going after their team mate who is obviously not hirself from something and just run off into a pyramid that was built to be a deathtrap for invaders.

They don't know where V went except downstairs to the entrance level. They didn't see where (s)he went beyond that.