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2012-03-10, 04:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
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2012-03-10, 05:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
Familicide could also be like Finger of Death in that you still take damage even if you make your saving throw, so the few that were "lucky" may have still been killed.
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2012-03-10, 05:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
If the assumption that the Draketooths are evil aligned(due to them stealing children and money from their spouses) is correct, then maybe they cannot be resurrected because they're in hell?
I don't know how the afterlife in D&D works, exactly, but if evil aligned people go to some afterlife where they don't want to be, it would be pointless if they could leave anytime they want, would it?
The black dragon seemed to be happy in afterlife, though...is there no hell in D&D? On the other hand, V seems to fear s/he'll get there...
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2012-03-10, 05:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
Very nice comic, Giant. Not much more I can say about it.
Thanks to Ceika for my avatar of Tobimaro.
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2012-03-10, 05:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2011
Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
Nothing prevents you from rezzing an evil character in this world; it just happens less often. For instance, if Xykon had the right scrolls/allies, he could raise a deceased Redcloak.
Regarding the hells and V, I think that people who start out/are willingly evil (the true villains) aren't punished quite the same as those who want to be good/don't especially enjoy evil, but commit enough evil acts that they're damned anyway. Actually, I expect really evil mortals might have enough power and value to the devils/demons to be instated as commanders/soldiers in diabolic or demonic armies, or be given other positions that they'd enjoy holding - perhaps they're even reborn as fiends themselves. A not-really-evil person like Vaarsuvius might face eternal torture/slavery/having hir power siphoned by the truly evil crowd. Also, people who are really evil but not really powerful would become slaves or cannon fodder.
On the other hand, since even Xykon is willing to do anything to avoid damnation, my assumption is probably wrong... Although maybe that's just because even he would be relatively low on the food chain in the Abyss.
One thing we can see is that evil goblins who serve the Dark One get an afterlife that's perfectly enjoyable to them; I'd assume that the ABD was sent to Tiamat's realm, which would be perfectly fine to her. Perhaps a reasonable conclusion is that members of Usually (Chaotic) Evil races - those expected to be Evil, and with Evil patron deities - go to an afterlife managed by those Evil deities, which is perfectly fine for the Evil members of the race. Evil members of Usually Neutral/Good races that have Neutral/Good deities, on the other hand, are sent to the hells to be tortured.
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2012-03-10, 05:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2012-03-10, 05:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
Can a paladin even cast Resurrection? SRD seems to say no. What reason would anyone have for thinking that Soon or one of his Sapphire Guard were the ones resurrecting them? I suppose you can extrapolate that paladins wouldn't associate with unlawful beings, but then neither would a lot of people.
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2012-03-10, 06:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2011
Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
Nope. Sorry, still not doing it.
Evaluating someone as a self-righteous bastard doesn't equal thinking that said bastard would do something that goes against what being a self-righteous bastard means in the first place.
Gmantis gave a bunch of "obvious" things which were nothing more than jumping to conclusions. Torturing is an evil act, THIS is a fact, and goes against what even a fascist paladin would do.
You can think of a judge as a "moral, rigid, self-enticed ******", you can expect him to go back on his word for "law's sake", but you still wouldn't imagine him going around burning criminals alive or things like that.Last edited by Mantine; 2012-03-10 at 06:06 PM.
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2012-03-10, 06:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
Azure City had at least one cleric capable of casting Resurrection (which failed, since Shojo didn't consent to come back, but the spell was cast nonetheless). Since Girard was paranoid enough to expect Soon to quickly break his oath, he was unlikely to dilute that paranoia with a "but I'm sure he won't drag any high level clerics along with him, so if one shows up I should rethink things" nuance.
One thing we don't know: are there any paladins of Thor?
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2012-03-10, 06:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
I was right there with you until this last sentence. Lots of people play an evil campaign. That's not even remotely what the post you were responding to was talking about, but your point that playing an evil character doesn't make one evil is perfectly valid. (Otherwise, we'd have to lock up half the people that act in Shakespearean plays.)
However, that last sentence seriously (seriously, seriously) creeps me the hell out. It's the sentiment of a sociopath, and the idea that a teacher is the one who said it scares the crap out of me. Maybe I'm overly-sensitized by being a parent in the LAUSD which has been in the news lately with several teachers (and more almost daily, it seems) being revealed as sexual predators, but I wouldn't want somebody who ever says anything like that to be within a hundred feet of my kid. Please tell me you aren't in the LAUSD. (And please, seek help.)
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2012-03-10, 06:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
The Draketooth's weren't so much evil as chaotic which is why Girard and Soon had SOOO much trouble. Also the current storyarc is more or less over the conflict between Choas Vs Lawful with lawful being another word for Order. For example Tarquin is most likely Lawful Evil because he's orderly in his tyranny, but my supiscions are that Girard and his clan are Chaotic Good.
Wizard's First Rule: People will believe anything, either because they want it to be true, or they are afraid it is true.
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2012-03-10, 06:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
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2012-03-10, 07:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
My sense of the afterlifes - just based on the comics, I don't know anything about D&D - is that if you're "loyal" to your alignment, you'll go to the afterlife suited to that alignment and be happy there. Evil people in the afterlife get to form adventuring parties and go after people in the Good afterlives, which seems like something Evil people would find fun. And since D&D is a world where everyone knows the afterlife exists, if things didn't function this way you simply wouldn't see people deliberately choosing to be evil - the post-death repercussions would be too high.
However, if you don't act in accordance with your alignment, you get sent to the afterlife of a different one, and that functions as a punishment. Miko, for example, would almost certainly be in the Lawful Neutral afterlife rather than being in the Lawful Good one with other paladins, and that would be a punishment for her. Roy looked surprisingly horrified when the Deva considered putting him in the Neutral Good afterlife (strip 490), even though on an objective basis it's probably a very pleasant place (although Roy's fear may have been based mainly on the fact that he wouldn't see his family in the Neutral Good afterlife).
So based on this, I think the theory that if V went to one of the Evil afterlifes it would be worse for him/her than it would be for genuinely evil creatures is correct.
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2012-03-10, 07:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by jere7my; 2012-03-10 at 07:09 PM.
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2012-03-10, 07:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
Counter-speculation:
The monitoring magic item wasn't built with the intention to prophetize in which order the Gates would have been destroyed, and the fact that the light indicating the 3 Gates already destroyed are adjacent to each other is a mere coincidence (not even a terribly unlikely one, at that).Last edited by ManuelSacha; 2012-03-10 at 07:21 PM.
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2012-03-10, 07:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
Oh - thanks. Like I said, I don't know anything about how D&D works.
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2012-03-10, 08:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
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Rest in Peace:SpoilerMiko Miyazaki, Thanh, Durkon- Order of the Stick
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2012-03-10, 09:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
they probably have no idea who Thor is, Girard reffered to Soons god as a petting zoo so he didnt care about them at all so its possible they ahve no idea what the names of the gods actually are, living in the desert the only thing they were probably taught is the importance of family, how everyone outside the family is out to get them, how to cast illusions and how evil paladins really are perhaps when they see a LG cleric casting ressurection even if the name of the Deity is Thor i dont think they get the Deitys allignment at all and theyd think "Thor" is one of the 12 gods
The monitoring magic item wasn't built with the intention to prophetize in which order the Gates would have been destroyed, and the fact that the light indicating the 3 Gates already destroyed are adjacent to each other is a mere coincidence (not even a terribly unlikely one, at that).Last edited by Forikroder; 2012-03-10 at 09:22 PM.
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2012-03-10, 09:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2011
Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
Technically they didn't say it, but it was heavily implied.
1st: In 633 they specifically said they have the power to graft souls that have been damned to the lower planes. This only happens after death. There is no implication that the IFCC can rip a soul out of a living person prior to being damned.
2nd: V certainly thinks it will be after his/her death and says as much in 634 - "after my eventual death." V could argue that this was a condition on his/her agreement and therefore it is legally bounding.
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2012-03-10, 09:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
There are 3 problems i see with resurecting the draketooths
The first, and most obvious, is they seem to be a lawful evil organization. Chaotic stupid illusionists dont exist, as illusion requires an ordered mind. Lawful does not mean rational, and a wizard's low wisdom wouldnt exactly serve them well for judging allies or tollerating outsiders.
2nd: Familicide is an epic spell, and the actual caster never died, just splintered out of V. Rich hasnt made a detailed description of the spell, specifically for the reason so that we dont know how bad it is. The spell might never have ended, while i suspect that Familicide is a permanent spell.
3rd: Thor isnt on speaking terms with the other hierarchies, i remember at one point in the comic, Celestial tiger chews him out for giving durkon some spells. Simply put, although Durkon has a few spells he can spontaineously cast, he isnt allowed full divine might, because its only what Thor can slip our dehydrated dwarf.
As for predictions:
V for Varsuvius. V is amnesiatic and has subbed his levels of Wizard for Ranger. He Dualwields throwing Sabers. oh, and hes evil. Blackwing is still his companion.Last edited by toapat; 2012-03-10 at 09:37 PM. Reason: Familicide
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2012-03-10, 09:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
do the IFCC have the authority to rip out Vs soul though? although they never did specifically say they get Vs soul after he dies do they have the authority to take his soul while hes still alive without actually saying it? isnt "after i die my soul is yours" generally the standard?
2nd: Familicide is an epic spell, and the actual caster never died, just splintered out of V, the spell might never have ended, while i suspect that Familicide is a permanent spell.
The first, and most obvious, is they seem to be a lawful evil organization. Chaotic stupid illusionists dont exist, as illusion requires an ordered mind. Lawful does not mean rational, and a wizard's low wisdom wouldnt exactly serve them well for judging allies or tollerating outsiders.
3rd: Thor isnt on speaking terms with the other hierarchies, i remember at one point in the comic, Celestial tiger chews him out for giving durkon some spells. Simply put, although Durkon has a few spells he can spontaineously cast, he isnt allowed full divine might, because its only what Thor can slip our dehydrated dwarf.
Durkon still gets all of his spells that his level deserves the gods arent gonna deny him that but he cant make any specific calls to Thor for extra spells or like what he pulled with weather controlLast edited by Forikroder; 2012-03-10 at 09:36 PM.
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2012-03-10, 09:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-03-10, 09:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
You don't quite get the concept of a contract with fiends, do you?
Huh? What the hell.
Chaotic stupid illusionists dont exist, as illusion requires an ordered mind.
The spell might never have ended, while i suspect that Familicide is a permanent spell.
3rd: Thor isnt on speaking terms with the other hierarchies, i remember at one point in the comic, Celestial tiger chews him out for giving durkon some spells. Simply put, although Durkon has a few spells he can spontaineously cast, he isnt allowed full divine might, because its only what Thor can slip our dehydrated dwarf.Last edited by Kish; 2012-03-10 at 09:57 PM.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2012-03-10, 09:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
They said they had a 50/50 of getting V after V died because of Familicide, they dont get to reap the benefits of the faustian deal until he dies for whatever reason he kicks the bucket permanently.
Soul Splice, on the other hand, is again left vague asto whether the splicee, or the Splices are the ones casting the spells. It is clear, on the other hand, that V was dictating which spells were cast.
Actually, yes, Alignment is linked, within limits to state of mind. Lawful's extreme is xenophobia and paranoia, Chaotic's extreme is Insanity, Good's extreme is Naivete and worthless sacrifice, while Evil's extreme is greed, lust, and envy.
This is something that we dont know. it is suggested he can prep every spell in his "ThorPrayer" book, although i suspect that isnt the case
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2012-03-10, 09:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
Roy and Durkon failed to provide an -or else- to validate Haley's claim.
Really, with her upbringing under her father it's a surprise Haley doesn't see things the opposite way.Last edited by Bobb; 2012-03-10 at 10:13 PM.
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2012-03-10, 10:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-03-10, 10:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
but they cant act on the material plane unless there making a deal
but heres a question, why not Z? why dont they offer Z the power to kill V in exchange for his soul? they seem awfully picky about Vs soul specifically
my gut tells me that they cant touch Vs soul while its still in its mortal shell, probably some rules set in place by gods to prevent foul play when it comes which soul goes where the IFCC is extremely limited in there power it seems like there non-compete clause with the evil gods, most likely pretty much everyone looks down there noses at them and dont actually think theyll be able to pull anything off
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2012-03-11, 12:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
Point of order: he said those things, and he's an epic-level master of deception. That he said them doesn't mean he believed them, just that he wanted someone who knows about Soon and the paladins to believe that he believes them. He backed up those statements with an "attempt on Soon's life" that was laughably weak vs. an epic Paladin, after all.
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2012-03-11, 12:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
well paladins are known for having low reaction times compared to Roy, Roy seems to be able to think more like a rogue then other Lawful Goods example being when Haley was trying to explain Redcloaks strategy he figured it out long before Hinjo did so while Roy had a few precious seconds of moving away from the impact a paladin could ahve been directly at groudn Zero
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2012-03-11, 01:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread
1. That basically boils down to not wanting to be raised at all, which again I don't think is realistic. Besides, I'm not sure how insulting the Twelve Gods implies distrust of all gods.
2. Well, yeah, that's pretty possible.
3. The problem is that if they were doing that, they would see that it wasn't Soon's men resurrecting them!
Also, in the LG afterlife, everyone worshiping the same pantheon ended up in the same line. Surely enough of the Draketooths were the same alignment/deity combo to know that they were dead together.