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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KicktheCAN View Post
    I have been thinking, shouldn't 5% of people affected by the Familicide spell still be alive? Having rolled an automatic success on their saving throw that is.
    Familicide is "broken" enough that it wouldn't really surprise me if it doesn't give a saving throw.

    And anyway, probability doesn't work like that.
    Last edited by ti'esar; 2012-03-10 at 04:56 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

    Familicide could also be like Finger of Death in that you still take damage even if you make your saving throw, so the few that were "lucky" may have still been killed.
    THE SCRYING EYE AT THE END OF STRIP #698 WAS ZZ'DTRI'S (SOURCE)

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    Default Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

    If the assumption that the Draketooths are evil aligned(due to them stealing children and money from their spouses) is correct, then maybe they cannot be resurrected because they're in hell?

    I don't know how the afterlife in D&D works, exactly, but if evil aligned people go to some afterlife where they don't want to be, it would be pointless if they could leave anytime they want, would it?


    The black dragon seemed to be happy in afterlife, though...is there no hell in D&D? On the other hand, V seems to fear s/he'll get there...

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    Default Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

    Very nice comic, Giant. Not much more I can say about it.
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    Default Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    If the assumption that the Draketooths are evil aligned(due to them stealing children and money from their spouses) is correct, then maybe they cannot be resurrected because they're in hell?

    I don't know how the afterlife in D&D works, exactly, but if evil aligned people go to some afterlife where they don't want to be, it would be pointless if they could leave anytime they want, would it?


    The black dragon seemed to be happy in afterlife, though...is there no hell in D&D? On the other hand, V seems to fear s/he'll get there...

    Nothing prevents you from rezzing an evil character in this world; it just happens less often. For instance, if Xykon had the right scrolls/allies, he could raise a deceased Redcloak.

    Regarding the hells and V, I think that people who start out/are willingly evil (the true villains) aren't punished quite the same as those who want to be good/don't especially enjoy evil, but commit enough evil acts that they're damned anyway. Actually, I expect really evil mortals might have enough power and value to the devils/demons to be instated as commanders/soldiers in diabolic or demonic armies, or be given other positions that they'd enjoy holding - perhaps they're even reborn as fiends themselves. A not-really-evil person like Vaarsuvius might face eternal torture/slavery/having hir power siphoned by the truly evil crowd. Also, people who are really evil but not really powerful would become slaves or cannon fodder.

    On the other hand, since even Xykon is willing to do anything to avoid damnation, my assumption is probably wrong... Although maybe that's just because even he would be relatively low on the food chain in the Abyss.


    One thing we can see is that evil goblins who serve the Dark One get an afterlife that's perfectly enjoyable to them; I'd assume that the ABD was sent to Tiamat's realm, which would be perfectly fine to her. Perhaps a reasonable conclusion is that members of Usually (Chaotic) Evil races - those expected to be Evil, and with Evil patron deities - go to an afterlife managed by those Evil deities, which is perfectly fine for the Evil members of the race. Evil members of Usually Neutral/Good races that have Neutral/Good deities, on the other hand, are sent to the hells to be tortured.

  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mantine View Post
    All we know is that he believed Soon able to break an oath for the sake of world protection,
    That he believed Soon would break his oath almost immediately.

    That Soon's paladins were fascists.

    That Soon was a coward who deserved to die.

    We don't technically know that he believed Soon would commit torture, but GMantis has a much stronger case here than you do.

  7. - Top - End - #247
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    Default Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

    Can a paladin even cast Resurrection? SRD seems to say no. What reason would anyone have for thinking that Soon or one of his Sapphire Guard were the ones resurrecting them? I suppose you can extrapolate that paladins wouldn't associate with unlawful beings, but then neither would a lot of people.

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    Default Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    That he believed Soon would break his oath almost immediately.

    That Soon's paladins were fascists.

    That Soon was a coward who deserved to die.

    We don't technically know that he believed Soon would commit torture, but GMantis has a much stronger case here than you do.
    Nope. Sorry, still not doing it.
    Evaluating someone as a self-righteous bastard doesn't equal thinking that said bastard would do something that goes against what being a self-righteous bastard means in the first place.
    Gmantis gave a bunch of "obvious" things which were nothing more than jumping to conclusions. Torturing is an evil act, THIS is a fact, and goes against what even a fascist paladin would do.

    You can think of a judge as a "moral, rigid, self-enticed ******", you can expect him to go back on his word for "law's sake", but you still wouldn't imagine him going around burning criminals alive or things like that.
    Last edited by Mantine; 2012-03-10 at 06:06 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Default Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Smolder View Post
    Can a paladin even cast Resurrection? SRD seems to say no. What reason would anyone have for thinking that Soon or one of his Sapphire Guard were the ones resurrecting them? I suppose you can extrapolate that paladins wouldn't associate with unlawful beings, but then neither would a lot of people.
    Azure City had at least one cleric capable of casting Resurrection (which failed, since Shojo didn't consent to come back, but the spell was cast nonetheless). Since Girard was paranoid enough to expect Soon to quickly break his oath, he was unlikely to dilute that paranoia with a "but I'm sure he won't drag any high level clerics along with him, so if one shows up I should rethink things" nuance.

    One thing we don't know: are there any paladins of Thor?

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    Default Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Hair Day View Post
    But if you met me at a PTA meeting, I know just the things I'm suppose to say so that you think I'm a great guy who really understands your point of view and you are honored that I am the one teaching your precious little children...
    I was right there with you until this last sentence. Lots of people play an evil campaign. That's not even remotely what the post you were responding to was talking about, but your point that playing an evil character doesn't make one evil is perfectly valid. (Otherwise, we'd have to lock up half the people that act in Shakespearean plays.)

    However, that last sentence seriously (seriously, seriously) creeps me the hell out. It's the sentiment of a sociopath, and the idea that a teacher is the one who said it scares the crap out of me. Maybe I'm overly-sensitized by being a parent in the LAUSD which has been in the news lately with several teachers (and more almost daily, it seems) being revealed as sexual predators, but I wouldn't want somebody who ever says anything like that to be within a hundred feet of my kid. Please tell me you aren't in the LAUSD. (And please, seek help.)

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    Default Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    If the assumption that the Draketooths are evil aligned(due to them stealing children and money from their spouses) is correct, then maybe they cannot be resurrected because they're in hell?

    I don't know how the afterlife in D&D works, exactly, but if evil aligned people go to some afterlife where they don't want to be, it would be pointless if they could leave anytime they want, would it?


    The black dragon seemed to be happy in afterlife, though...is there no hell in D&D? On the other hand, V seems to fear s/he'll get there...
    The Draketooth's weren't so much evil as chaotic which is why Girard and Soon had SOOO much trouble. Also the current storyarc is more or less over the conflict between Choas Vs Lawful with lawful being another word for Order. For example Tarquin is most likely Lawful Evil because he's orderly in his tyranny, but my supiscions are that Girard and his clan are Chaotic Good.
    Wizard's First Rule: People will believe anything, either because they want it to be true, or they are afraid it is true.

  12. - Top - End - #252
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    Default Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LordRahl6 View Post
    The Draketooth's weren't so much evil as chaotic which is why Girard and Soon had SOOO much trouble. Also the current storyarc is more or less over the conflict between Choas Vs Lawful with lawful being another word for Order. For example Tarquin is most likely Lawful Evil because he's orderly in his tyranny, but my supiscions are that Girard and his clan are Chaotic Good.
    Don't know...if they all did this "father child, then steal it"-thing...that sounds rather evil to me. Not enough to make them evil-aligned maybe, but at least neutral.

    They need a certain lack of interest in the wellbeing of others for this.

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    Default Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

    My sense of the afterlifes - just based on the comics, I don't know anything about D&D - is that if you're "loyal" to your alignment, you'll go to the afterlife suited to that alignment and be happy there. Evil people in the afterlife get to form adventuring parties and go after people in the Good afterlives, which seems like something Evil people would find fun. And since D&D is a world where everyone knows the afterlife exists, if things didn't function this way you simply wouldn't see people deliberately choosing to be evil - the post-death repercussions would be too high.

    However, if you don't act in accordance with your alignment, you get sent to the afterlife of a different one, and that functions as a punishment. Miko, for example, would almost certainly be in the Lawful Neutral afterlife rather than being in the Lawful Good one with other paladins, and that would be a punishment for her. Roy looked surprisingly horrified when the Deva considered putting him in the Neutral Good afterlife (strip 490), even though on an objective basis it's probably a very pleasant place (although Roy's fear may have been based mainly on the fact that he wouldn't see his family in the Neutral Good afterlife).

    So based on this, I think the theory that if V went to one of the Evil afterlifes it would be worse for him/her than it would be for genuinely evil creatures is correct.

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    Default Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyEowyn View Post
    My sense of the afterlifes - just based on the comics, I don't know anything about D&D - is that if you're "loyal" to your alignment, you'll go to the afterlife suited to that alignment and be happy there. Evil people in the afterlife get to form adventuring parties and go after people in the Good afterlives, which seems like something Evil people would find fun.
    Those weren't dead evil people — they were from the Prime Material Plane, traveling to the outer planes to collect loot and experience. It's a riff on good adventuring parties plane shifting to the Nine Hells or the Abyss for the hell of it.
    Last edited by jere7my; 2012-03-10 at 07:09 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Siosilvar View Post
    EDIT: It occurs to me that the other gates have been destroyed in a clockwise direction, but Kraagor's is next that way. Speculation:
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    Nobody's going to find Girard's Gate - the three groups will show up, they'll fight it out, and then Xykon & co. will decide it's not worth the effort and fly off to K's gate.
    Counter-speculation:

    The monitoring magic item wasn't built with the intention to prophetize in which order the Gates would have been destroyed, and the fact that the light indicating the 3 Gates already destroyed are adjacent to each other is a mere coincidence (not even a terribly unlikely one, at that).
    Last edited by ManuelSacha; 2012-03-10 at 07:21 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

    Oh - thanks. Like I said, I don't know anything about how D&D works.

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    Default Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by eilandesq View Post
    Azure City had at least one cleric capable of casting Resurrection (which failed, since Shojo didn't consent to come back, but the spell was cast nonetheless). Since Girard was paranoid enough to expect Soon to quickly break his oath, he was unlikely to dilute that paranoia with a "but I'm sure he won't drag any high level clerics along with him, so if one shows up I should rethink things" nuance.

    One thing we don't know: are there any paladins of Thor?
    Maybe O Chul and Lien gonna meet them. I'm hoping that they didn't die.
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    Default Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Incom View Post
    I dunno about the whole "wouldn't take a rez from a LG cleric" when said LG cleric's patron (which they are also told based on the spell as written) is the "Chaotic Drunken" Thor. Granted, the Draketooths seem to think that All Paladins Are Miko, but that archetype surely wouldn't put up with Thor's antics... or do they think the rez info can be faked?
    they probably have no idea who Thor is, Girard reffered to Soons god as a petting zoo so he didnt care about them at all so its possible they ahve no idea what the names of the gods actually are, living in the desert the only thing they were probably taught is the importance of family, how everyone outside the family is out to get them, how to cast illusions and how evil paladins really are perhaps when they see a LG cleric casting ressurection even if the name of the Deity is Thor i dont think they get the Deitys allignment at all and theyd think "Thor" is one of the 12 gods

    The monitoring magic item wasn't built with the intention to prophetize in which order the Gates would have been destroyed, and the fact that the light indicating the 3 Gates already destroyed are adjacent to each other is a mere coincidence (not even a terribly unlikely one, at that).
    it makes sense for tha torder to happen, they were probably labelled based on the actual location of the gates that got translated onto the circle or perhaps based on which ones were close to each other for more info so since lirians gate is near dorukons gate theyd be next to each other on the pie chart and the one above lirians gate is the next closest so it makes snse for any enemy to unknowingly follow the circle around since theyd go after the closest gate especially if they realised that all of themw ere warned when one falls so the enemy would ahve to attack the gates "in order" essentially to be effecient
    Last edited by Forikroder; 2012-03-10 at 09:22 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Red XIV View Post
    V seems to assume that the IFCC will get their time controlling him upon his death. But they never actually said that. It's entirely possible (IMO, probable) that they'll end up taking control of him while he's still alive. Taking possession of his soul for 44 minutes and 16 seconds after his death would be of limited use at best. Doing so for the same amount of time while he's alive , on the other hand, could be a lot more useful.
    Technically they didn't say it, but it was heavily implied.

    1st: In 633 they specifically said they have the power to graft souls that have been damned to the lower planes. This only happens after death. There is no implication that the IFCC can rip a soul out of a living person prior to being damned.

    2nd: V certainly thinks it will be after his/her death and says as much in 634 - "after my eventual death." V could argue that this was a condition on his/her agreement and therefore it is legally bounding.

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    Default Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    Nope, all continuing magical effects ended when the splice did. There is no magic related to Familicide that stops the resurection because all magic from familicide is gone, kaput. That's part of the described deal and mechanism for how the splice worked.
    There are 3 problems i see with resurecting the draketooths

    The first, and most obvious, is they seem to be a lawful evil organization. Chaotic stupid illusionists dont exist, as illusion requires an ordered mind. Lawful does not mean rational, and a wizard's low wisdom wouldnt exactly serve them well for judging allies or tollerating outsiders.

    2nd: Familicide is an epic spell, and the actual caster never died, just splintered out of V. Rich hasnt made a detailed description of the spell, specifically for the reason so that we dont know how bad it is. The spell might never have ended, while i suspect that Familicide is a permanent spell.

    3rd: Thor isnt on speaking terms with the other hierarchies, i remember at one point in the comic, Celestial tiger chews him out for giving durkon some spells. Simply put, although Durkon has a few spells he can spontaineously cast, he isnt allowed full divine might, because its only what Thor can slip our dehydrated dwarf.


    As for predictions:

    V for Varsuvius. V is amnesiatic and has subbed his levels of Wizard for Ranger. He Dualwields throwing Sabers. oh, and hes evil. Blackwing is still his companion.
    Last edited by toapat; 2012-03-10 at 09:37 PM. Reason: Familicide

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    Default Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gusion View Post
    Technically they didn't say it, but it was heavily implied.

    1st: In 633 they specifically said they have the power to graft souls that have been damned to the lower planes. This only happens after death. There is no implication that the IFCC can rip a soul out of a living person prior to being damned.

    2nd: V certainly thinks it will be after his/her death and says as much in 634 - "after my eventual death." V could argue that this was a condition on his/her agreement and therefore it is legally bounding.
    do the IFCC have the authority to rip out Vs soul though? although they never did specifically say they get Vs soul after he dies do they have the authority to take his soul while hes still alive without actually saying it? isnt "after i die my soul is yours" generally the standard?

    2nd: Familicide is an epic spell, and the actual caster never died, just splintered out of V, the spell might never have ended, while i suspect that Familicide is a permanent spell.
    incorrect, Haerta didnt cast the spell she jsut supplied the knowledge it was all V

    The first, and most obvious, is they seem to be a lawful evil organization. Chaotic stupid illusionists dont exist, as illusion requires an ordered mind. Lawful does not mean rational, and a wizard's low wisdom wouldnt exactly serve them well for judging allies or tollerating outsiders.
    alignment has nothing to dow tih state of mind, haleys a good example shes chaotic but still knows how to think things through, and then what would that make the Chaotic or true neutral V?

    3rd: Thor isnt on speaking terms with the other hierarchies, i remember at one point in the comic, Celestial tiger chews him out for giving durkon some spells. Simply put, although Durkon has a few spells he can spontaineously cast, he isnt allowed full divine might, because its only what Thor can slip our dehydrated dwarf.

    Durkon still gets all of his spells that his level deserves the gods arent gonna deny him that but he cant make any specific calls to Thor for extra spells or like what he pulled with weather control
    Last edited by Forikroder; 2012-03-10 at 09:36 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gusion View Post
    Technically they didn't say it, but it was heavily implied.

    1st: In 633 they specifically said they have the power to graft souls that have been damned to the lower planes. This only happens after death. There is no implication that the IFCC can rip a soul out of a living person prior to being damned.

    2nd: V certainly thinks it will be after his/her death and says as much in 634 - "after my eventual death." V could argue that this was a condition on his/her agreement and therefore it is legally bounding.
    I never suggested that the IFCC would rip V's soul out before he/she dies. I'm suggesting that the IFCC will take control of V's soul while it's still in his/her body, thus allowing them to use the living V as a puppet.

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    Default Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gusion View Post
    Technically they didn't say it, but it was heavily implied.
    You don't quite get the concept of a contract with fiends, do you?
    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    There are 3 problems i see with resurecting the draketooths

    The first, and most obvious, is they seem to be a lawful evil organization.
    Huh? What the hell.

    Chaotic stupid illusionists dont exist, as illusion requires an ordered mind.
    Oddly enough, the Player's Handbook not only fails to mention an alignment restriction for any wizard specialization, I believe it says illusionists tend toward Chaotic alignment.
    The spell might never have ended, while i suspect that Familicide is a permanent spell.
    Except that that's totally not how the Soul Splice works, even if there was any reason at all to presume that the spell prevented resurrection--which there isn't.
    3rd: Thor isnt on speaking terms with the other hierarchies, i remember at one point in the comic, Celestial tiger chews him out for giving durkon some spells. Simply put, although Durkon has a few spells he can spontaineously cast, he isnt allowed full divine might, because its only what Thor can slip our dehydrated dwarf.
    This is goofy. Tiger wouldn't let Thor break the rules to help Durkon in ways that went beyond the aid a deity normally gives a cleric when Durkon was actively fighting in Azure City. From that, you're extrapolating that all the other pantheons hate Thor and that Durkon's cleric ability is permanently crippled.
    Last edited by Kish; 2012-03-10 at 09:57 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Forikroder View Post
    do the IFCC have the authority to rip out Vs soul though? although they never did specifically say they get Vs soul after he dies do they have the authority to take his soul while hes still alive without actually saying it? isnt "after i die my soul is yours" generally the standard?

    incorrect, Haerta didnt cast the spell she jsut supplied the knowledge it was all V

    alignment has nothing to do with state of mind, haleys a good example shes chaotic but still knows how to think things through, and then what would that make the Chaotic or true neutral V?

    Durkon still gets all of his spells that his level deserves the gods arent gonna deny him that but he cant make any specific calls to Thor for extra spells or like what he pulled with weather control
    They said they had a 50/50 of getting V after V died because of Familicide, they dont get to reap the benefits of the faustian deal until he dies for whatever reason he kicks the bucket permanently.

    Soul Splice, on the other hand, is again left vague asto whether the splicee, or the Splices are the ones casting the spells. It is clear, on the other hand, that V was dictating which spells were cast.

    Actually, yes, Alignment is linked, within limits to state of mind. Lawful's extreme is xenophobia and paranoia, Chaotic's extreme is Insanity, Good's extreme is Naivete and worthless sacrifice, while Evil's extreme is greed, lust, and envy.

    This is something that we dont know. it is suggested he can prep every spell in his "ThorPrayer" book, although i suspect that isnt the case

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    Default Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

    Roy and Durkon failed to provide an -or else- to validate Haley's claim.

    Really, with her upbringing under her father it's a surprise Haley doesn't see things the opposite way.
    Last edited by Bobb; 2012-03-10 at 10:13 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Red XIV View Post
    I never suggested that the IFCC would rip V's soul out before he/she dies. I'm suggesting that the IFCC will take control of V's soul while it's still in his/her body, thus allowing them to use the living V as a puppet.
    Uh, well, I guess but there are epic level dominate spells that would be a lot easier than wasting their time controlling V's soul.

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    Default Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gusion View Post
    Uh, well, I guess but there are epic level dominate spells that would be a lot easier than wasting their time controlling V's soul.
    but they cant act on the material plane unless there making a deal

    but heres a question, why not Z? why dont they offer Z the power to kill V in exchange for his soul? they seem awfully picky about Vs soul specifically

    my gut tells me that they cant touch Vs soul while its still in its mortal shell, probably some rules set in place by gods to prevent foul play when it comes which soul goes where the IFCC is extremely limited in there power it seems like there non-compete clause with the evil gods, most likely pretty much everyone looks down there noses at them and dont actually think theyll be able to pull anything off

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    Default Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    That he believed Soon would break his oath almost immediately.

    That Soon's paladins were fascists.

    That Soon was a coward who deserved to die.
    Point of order: he said those things, and he's an epic-level master of deception. That he said them doesn't mean he believed them, just that he wanted someone who knows about Soon and the paladins to believe that he believes them. He backed up those statements with an "attempt on Soon's life" that was laughably weak vs. an epic Paladin, after all.

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    Default Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by snikrept View Post
    Point of order: he said those things, and he's an epic-level master of deception. That he said them doesn't mean he believed them, just that he wanted someone who knows about Soon and the paladins to believe that he believes them. He backed up those statements with an "attempt on Soon's life" that was laughably weak vs. an epic Paladin, after all.
    well paladins are known for having low reaction times compared to Roy, Roy seems to be able to think more like a rogue then other Lawful Goods example being when Haley was trying to explain Redcloaks strategy he figured it out long before Hinjo did so while Roy had a few precious seconds of moving away from the impact a paladin could ahve been directly at groudn Zero

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    Default Re: OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KingFlameHawk View Post
    I think there are a few things you are missing:
    1. Their thought process is most likely that any lawful good cleric, regard less of diety is an ally of Soon and his men and can't be trusted. Also this comic shows that Girard think of the 12 gods of the south as a " glorified petting zoo", showing a disbelief of, or at least mistrust of gods in the first place so Durkon being a cleric of Thor obviously makes no difference.
    2. They probably think they are. If they don't know that everyone is dead their thought process is most likely "I am died, A lawful cleric (obviously one of Soon's lackeys) is trying to raise me, if he does he will likely torture me or mind control me until I give him information on the gate, I better stay dead"
    3. I am pretty sure that distrust can override curiousity in this case if they are this level of chaotic, also it has been shown that if someone is curious they don't need to be raised they can just go to this demiplane a watch them, or just go down themselves.
    1. That basically boils down to not wanting to be raised at all, which again I don't think is realistic. Besides, I'm not sure how insulting the Twelve Gods implies distrust of all gods.
    2. Well, yeah, that's pretty possible.
    3. The problem is that if they were doing that, they would see that it wasn't Soon's men resurrecting them!

    Also, in the LG afterlife, everyone worshiping the same pantheon ended up in the same line. Surely enough of the Draketooths were the same alignment/deity combo to know that they were dead together.
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