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  1. - Top - End - #91
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Arros Winhadren's Avatar

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    Default Re: How should I build a character to kill Nerull?

    Just to weigh in on the "Nerull predicts his own death", I'd say that it's entirely up to the DM as the SRD is a little vague on the subject:

    Portfolio
    Every deity of rank 1 or higher has at least limited knowledge and control over some aspect of mortal existence.


    Note that the Portfolio specifies "mortal existence", which means that any events involving immortals is by RAW not within the Deity's portfolio. However, a mortal trying to seize the Deity's portfolio certainly sounds like it would affect at least that mortal's existence, and the effect would pertain to the portfolio they were trying to seize meaning that Nerull would know what you're up to. Even if you argue that the destruction of the current God of Death doesn't pertain to the Death portfolio (I don't understand why you'd argue that, but some have) I think you could reasonably argue that the creation of a NEW God of Death pertains to the portfolio (maybe the new god makes all dying creatures explode into confetti, changing cultural perceptions of death). So basically it's up in the air and entirely depends on what your DM says you can do (just like everything else in D&D).

    The other thing I wanted to mention was Ice Assassin. People seem to assume that you can just choose a target and BAM, you have an evil clone. Unfortunately, you need a piece of the target (hair, skin, blood, etc.) for the spell to function. Which means that you would already have to be able to harm Nerull sufficiently to get a part of him OR find one lying around from when he was a mortal. Unlikely. The other option is to take Ignore Material Components; Eschew Materials would work but as the DM I'd rule that a piece of Nerull is worth much, much more than 1 gold piece. However, even with Ignore Material Components I'd say that it can't replace divine flesh. So again, up to your DM.
    I find it kinda funny I find it kinda sad.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: How should I build a character to kill Nerull?

    We want to kill a God, do we? Okay, lets try this.

    Step 0: Become an Elan, Warforged or a Lich and be functionally immortal in some other way.
    Step 1: Become Immune to Int Damage. Doesn't really matter how, but you don't want to trust your success to a Percentile Dice chance of going into a coma.
    Step 2: Cast Teleport Through Time and head back to prior to Nerull's Ascension. Go back to the beginning of existence if you choose, and just wait.
    Step 3: Wait until Pre-Ascension Nerull is born.
    Step 4: Kill Him now, while he is weak. The Greathammer will serve you well when he is just flesh and blood, and his divinity is just a distant possibility.
    Step 4a: If killing Nerull is what causes him to ascend, prevent his death and Teleport Through Time with him to the end of the universe and deposit him there.
    Step 5: Laugh as the resulting paradox ravages time and space. You've disrupted causality, but you have your revenge.

    Alternatively, we do this indirectly and take him on at the height of his power. The biggest obstacle here is his Portfolio Sense, which tips him off regarding anything involving death, murder, darkness, or covert activity, so that just means we need to put our plan into motion without anyone dying, no sneakiness and everything happening in broad daylight. That's doable.

    Time to trick the multiverse into worshipping you. In an obvious way, flamboyant in the middle of the day (Teleport Through Time to never, ever be anywhere at night time) that does not result in killing or causing anyone to die by your actions and start gathering worshippers. Use the Jumplomancer to get everyone who you ever encounter to move up to Fanatic, and command them to worship you as there one and only god. Earn those Divine Ranks with your fabulous jumping! Its Gestalt, so spend the other side of your progression getting all the 9ths with Ur-Priest, Elven Domain Generalist, Psyhic Theurge and Psion. Just have all the things and be awesome.

    Now that you are a Deity, its time to get even. By dint of Race or Template, you are immune to ageing, which gives you as much time as you need to gather the requisite Millions of Mortal Worshippers that you need for a Divine Rank in the ballpark of 16-20. Getting respect from other deities shouldn't be too hard, I don't think; trying to arrange events to kill a God of Death would require Cojones made of Adamantine. That is gonna earn you some street cred. Try to get your Portfolio to be Time Travel, since that is how you got all your power, and it is a useful thing to have prescience about. Use said Time Travel to make sure that your Divine Rank is 18 or higher.

    Being as you are now a Greater Diety with natural access to 9ths from every source, you can face off against Nerull without fear of being instagibbed (since you can Alter Reality every buff ever, use and abuse Epic Spellcasting and hold your own in Divine Rank fights, not to mention your immortality, means that your safe from most of his auto-win buttons), and turn it from a match between a mere mortal against a God to two Gods having a scrap, with you possessing the higher Divine Rank. You can turn him off, and them beat him into paste with that Hammer of yours.

    Then, take that Paste, and deposit it at the end of the universe. There is no better spot to dump bodies than the end of all existence.


    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
    Forgive me for being ignorant, but how would 15/adamantine protect the dragon from hitting the ground at over 4,4 billion newtons?

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: How should I build a character to kill Nerull?

    All this argueing about portfilio sense is kind of pointless. The deities and demigods book states that he can sense any death 17 weeks in advance. If you went up against him he would simply sense your PC's death. Most likely due to a use of his life or death divine ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Ladybug View Post
    We want to kill a God, do we? Okay, lets try this.
    .......
    Step 2: Cast Teleport Through Time and head back to prior to Nerull's Ascension. Go back to the beginning of existence if you choose, and just wait.
    Step 3: Wait until Pre-Ascension Nerull is born.
    This is the main flaw with your plan, you assume he Nerull was once mortal rather than a god to begin with. While deities and demigods list this as a possibility canon puts far more support towards the divine spark theory. Divine spark states that you are a god because you were always a god. If you were once mortal and ascended, then that only means you had the spark since you were born.
    Time to trick the multiverse into worshipping you.
    .....
    If that were true the Godsmen, a fraction in Sigil that believes as you do, would have had someone become a god already. This has not happened, and was explicitly stated in Harbringer House.

    More evidence for the divine spark include:
    1) the Lich queen of the githyanki has a whole race fanatics that willingly give there life force to her. Her plan to become a god isn't to get more fanatics (because that doesn't work) but to spam wishes (using the sacrificed high level githyanki) and steal the divine spark from a sleeping god. If the PCs fail to stop her she becomes a god.

    2) Harbringer house had a psychopathic NPC that did have the divine spark and was being hidden by the Godsmen. Some Godsmen felt it would undermine their (and your) belief that worship was the key to ascension, while others wish to use him to prove that mortals could ascend (neglecting to tell others he had a divine spark).

    There are other examples but the evidence from published material is pretty much proves the divine spark theory, not the "worship" theory.

    The rest of your post hinges on this dirproven theory and hence not valid. The DM could of course throw out all the establishing literature and go your route, but by canon? No your method is a waste of time.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: How should I build a character to kill Nerull?

    I'll say it again, the only way to really have a chance to defeat him, or any god really, is lure him into the innermost ring of Outlands. There he will lose all his divine powers, divine bonuses, spells, divine abilities, Su feats, and his magical items and artifact will be only masterwork items.

    His stats are
    Nerco 10/Cleric 20/Rogue 10
    HP= 840
    AC=77
    STR: 25
    DEX: 33
    CON: 25
    INT: 35
    WIS: 40
    CHA: 29
    Granted you will have a hard time beating him without spells yourself but a gestalted combat focused build could have a decent shot at winning this fight. The hard part is to trick the god to go there as all gods know that is the only place in the whole multiverse where they are most vunerable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: How should I build a character to kill Nerull?

    Quote Originally Posted by classy one View Post
    This is the main flaw with your plan, you assume he Nerull was once mortal rather than a god to begin with. While deities and demigods list this as a possibility canon puts far more support towards the divine spark theory. Divine spark states that you are a god because you were always a god. If you were once mortal and ascended, then that only means you had the spark since you were born.
    Ah well, worth a try, I suppose. Still, Time Travel will almost always give you an answer to your problems, if you apply it correctly, and if Nerull was born Mortal, then you can just kill his ancestors before he was conceived. He might've been born a God, but that matters squat if he was never born at all. But, if this Divine Spark theory beats over that as well, then I suppose the Time Travel assassination thing will have to be put on hold.

    In any case, you could probably head off back in time to ingratiate yourself with the various Pantheons as they spring into being. Say, if you were to provide Corellon Larethian information about Lolth's imminent turn to evil, you'd probably earn yourself some brownie points in the Elf Pantheon. Repeat as needed until you have favours coming from as many Greater Deities as you can think off, and then call 'em in to help out with your Deicide.

    If that were true the Godsmen, a fraction in Sigil that believes as you do, would have had someone become a god already. This has not happened, and was explicitly stated in Harbringer House.

    More evidence for the divine spark include:
    1) the Lich queen of the githyanki has a whole race fanatics that willingly give there life force to her. Her plan to become a god isn't to get more fanatics (because that doesn't work) but to spam wishes (using the sacrificed high level githyanki) and steal the divine spark from a sleeping god. If the PCs fail to stop her she becomes a god.

    2) Harbringer house had a psychopathic NPC that did have the divine spark and was being hidden by the Godsmen. Some Godsmen felt it would undermine their (and your) belief that worship was the key to ascension, while others wish to use him to prove that mortals could ascend (neglecting to tell others he had a divine spark).

    There are other examples but the evidence from published material is pretty much proves the divine spark theory, not the "worship" theory.

    The rest of your post hinges on this dirproven theory and hence not valid. The DM could of course throw out all the establishing literature and go your route, but by canon? No your method is a waste of time.
    Fair enough, I don't own each and every piece of published material related to Gods in D&D, so I'm going in half-cocked to begin with. If you can't become a God by worship, then we don't use that plan.

    But I challenge your opinion that having every living being fanatically devoted to you because of your absolutely amazing jumping skills is a waste of time
    Last edited by Golden Ladybug; 2012-03-16 at 09:18 PM.


    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
    Forgive me for being ignorant, but how would 15/adamantine protect the dragon from hitting the ground at over 4,4 billion newtons?

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: How should I build a character to kill Nerull?

    Eh, whether or not worshippers make you into a deity is one of those things where there's little enough written and most of it is rule of whatever plot we have going on right now that it's the same as any other "we left this completely up to the DM" kinds of questions.
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  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Talakeal's Avatar

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    Default Re: How should I build a character to kill Nerull?

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Ladybug View Post
    In any case, you could probably head off back in time to ingratiate yourself with the various Pantheons as they spring into being. Say, if you were to provide Corellon Larethian information about Lolth's imminent turn to evil, you'd probably earn yourself some brownie points in the Elf Pantheon. Repeat as needed until you have favours coming from as many Greater Deities as you can think off, and then call 'em in to help out with your Deicide.
    :
    If it were that easy, wouldn't the god go back in time and warn themselves of future events?

  8. - Top - End - #98
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: How should I build a character to kill Nerull?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    If it were that easy, wouldn't the god go back in time and warn themselves of future events?
    Once you've got time travel... who's to say they don't? *shudder*
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    +3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: How should I build a character to kill Nerull?

    Okay, I didn't want this to have to be my fall-back, and I didn't even want this to be necessary in a build, but my character is incapable of dying. A dying god's last "blessing" was that as long as there is a god of the fey, I can't die. I. CAN'T. Die. I figured this out, when in depression, my character attempted suicide by dropping out of the sky into hard packed earth. I stared at the ground and wondered why I was laying on it without injury. The DM has told me out of character how this works, in character, I only know that "the gods won't let me die, possibly as punishment for what I've done." Can't die to atone, so, revenge is the obvious course. Lack of being able to die takes away most of Nerull's auto-win abilities, but not all. His others I can get around with magic items.
    So, back to topic, how do I build a character to kill Nerull? Straight up stats, don't worry too much about his portfolio sense and such, I can always beat him senseless, Trap the Soul on his helpless face, and kill him 17 weeks later, so he doesn't have time to see it in advance and prepare. My biggest problems will be how to protect myself from his spell casting, beat him down in just a couple of rounds (too fast for him to realize the threat), and keep him from just teleporting away (considering Purple Mist from Dungeonscape, if I can figure a way to create or summon it). What do you all recommend? I need to overcome his DR, SR, Fast Healing, and spell casting, without impacting my own. Divine Might full Cleric (with PRC's) up one side and some sort of arcane up the other? Tome of Battle? Link to someone who likes coming up with full builds? Thoughts or ideas?
    We house-rule away the Exp penalty for multi-classing, if it's important. We've always considered it extra baggage making a fun game complicated. Favored class means nothing to us anymore. Also, my DM will let me get away with a LOT of crap and questionable stuff (tier 1 or -1 is actually what I'm wanting), tho Pun Pun, Candle of Invocation abuse and similar stuff where ANY DM should just say NO, is out. That said, any thoughts?

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: How should I build a character to kill Nerull?

    Even if you can't die, you can't go up against a greater deity like Nerull and hope to win unless you are a greater deity yourself. Due to Alter Reality, he can have every buff ever up. Permanently.

    Foresight means you can't get the jump on him. Supreme Initiative means you can't go first.

    Also, I think you're making some assumptions here that might not be true. Even if you can't die to mortal means, who's to say a greater deity can't kill you--especially when his portfolio is death?

    Of course, it all depends on what your DM lets you get away with. If he doesn't play the deity to its full extent, then all bets are off. But if he does...

    Then I don't see a way to win. Not without Divine Ranks of your own.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: How should I build a character to kill Nerull?

    DM flat out said that as long as there is a god of the fey, my character will simply stand back up again. Even effects like disintegrate can't kill me. DM specifically said I'm immune to death effects, anything that causes instant death, death by massive damage, and death by hit point damage. I just get back up. Also, using a divine salient ability means that a god has to take a rest afterward. Granted the DM said she is using a "rebuilt" Nerull, but only to explain some of the abilities he used during the campaign. I don't know what exactly to expect from the fight, but if she is sticking to rules, I shouldn't be in THAT much trouble. He is still limited in how many actions he can take, and if I can get high enough level, I can always Miracle myself immune to more of his abilities (since Miracle is in itself divine intervention, should work)

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Calanon's Avatar

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    Default Re: How should I build a character to kill Nerull?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glassteel View Post
    Okay, I didn't want this to have to be my fall-back, and I didn't even want this to be necessary in a build, but my character is incapable of dying. A dying god's last "blessing" was that as long as there is a god of the fey, I can't die. I. CAN'T. Die. I figured this out, when in depression, my character attempted suicide by dropping out of the sky into hard packed earth. I stared at the ground and wondered why I was laying on it without injury. The DM has told me out of character how this works, in character, I only know that "the gods won't let me die, possibly as punishment for what I've done." Can't die to atone, so, revenge is the obvious course. Lack of being able to die takes away most of Nerull's auto-win abilities, but not all. His others I can get around with magic items.
    So, back to topic, how do I build a character to kill Nerull? Straight up stats, don't worry too much about his portfolio sense and such, I can always beat him senseless, Trap the Soul on his helpless face, and kill him 17 weeks later, so he doesn't have time to see it in advance and prepare. My biggest problems will be how to protect myself from his spell casting, beat him down in just a couple of rounds (too fast for him to realize the threat), and keep him from just teleporting away (considering Purple Mist from Dungeonscape, if I can figure a way to create or summon it). What do you all recommend? I need to overcome his DR, SR, Fast Healing, and spell casting, without impacting my own. Divine Might full Cleric (with PRC's) up one side and some sort of arcane up the other? Tome of Battle? Link to someone who likes coming up with full builds? Thoughts or ideas?
    We house-rule away the Exp penalty for multi-classing, if it's important. We've always considered it extra baggage making a fun game complicated. Favored class means nothing to us anymore. Also, my DM will let me get away with a LOT of crap and questionable stuff (tier 1 or -1 is actually what I'm wanting), tho Pun Pun, Candle of Invocation abuse and similar stuff where ANY DM should just say NO, is out. That said, any thoughts?
    Would have saved us all like 3 pages of discussion to know this earlier. Nerull can spontaneously cast any Cleric Spell (Cleric/20 Necromancer/10 Rogue/10) unfortunately a lot of Cleric spells are buffs and debuffs (Not that he even needs them with permanent buffs to everything) Honestly if you can overcome his Damage reduction, Fast Healing, Teleportation, and all that sauce then you can whip him (Of course he has DR 52/Magic so yeah...) honestly if your going all Immortal on us then your going to completely stomp Nerulls... My recommendation? Get Diehard, you can keep going forever since you cannot die... unfortunately Nerull doesn't gain the same benefits (When his HP reaches -10 he goes back to his special plane... or you succeed a rank check... as to where this entire situation would be moot since that would mean you have a Divine Rank...)


    Quote Originally Posted by Szar_Lakol View Post
    Even if you can't die, you can't go up against a greater deity like Nerull and hope to win unless you are a greater deity yourself. Due to Alter Reality, he can have every buff ever up. Permanently.
    That is indeed true

    Quote Originally Posted by Szar_Lakol View Post
    Foresight means you can't get the jump on him.
    That is indeed true

    Quote Originally Posted by Szar_Lakol View Post
    Supreme Initiative means you can't go first.
    Also true

    Quote Originally Posted by Szar_Lakol View Post
    Also, I think you're making some assumptions here that might not be true. Even if you can't die to mortal means, who's to say a greater deity can't kill you--especially when his portfolio is death?
    The DM apparently... which pretty much amounts to an Overpower I mean life and death doesn't work on an immortal (which he apparently is) since it specifies Mortal (Which he is not) of course Nerull can always pop into the realm (or try) of the Deity thats keeping him immortal and just snuff him out... or try... but I'm assuming that if its a Deity or Deities strong enough to prevent Nerull from killing him must either be a lot of Intermediates (or Lessers) or a Greater Deity... pretty awesome really...

    Quote Originally Posted by Szar_Lakol View Post
    Of course, it all depends on what your DM lets you get away with. If he doesn't play the deity to its full extent, then all bets are off. But if he does...
    Eh, If the OP shows this thread to his DM I'm confident he'll be screwed beyond any of our help


    Quote Originally Posted by Szar_Lakol View Post
    Then I don't see a way to win. Not without Divine Ranks of your own.
    Alas this is to true... without a Divine Rank it'll be a Pyrrhic victory at best... Honestly? I can expect by the end of this game that you will be elevated to godhood taking Nerulls place as the God of Death (if you are actually able to kill him in any way shape or form...)


    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by Glassteel View Post
    I can always Miracle myself immune to more of his abilities (since Miracle is in itself divine intervention, should work)
    Go with Wish, its better
    Last edited by Calanon; 2012-03-19 at 09:32 PM.
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  13. - Top - End - #103
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: How should I build a character to kill Nerull?

    hey,

    heres a thing that might help. Quite some time ago i was playing some campaign and basicly there was a dead god now alive again going around and killing other gods for their divine ranks with a word that kills - even gods. later we found out that this was the basic (and way more powerfull) version of the power word "xxxxx" spells.
    theese words are some pretty obscure knowledge but after some epic questing for the regulators (epic lvl handbook p.244) Mella Theeg might be able to point you in the right direction.
    just one or two story hooks, but heres the most important thing you need - your DM`s aproval and good will.
    if you dont have that we can strongarm and RAW your ass of the hook and
    whatever and it still will not work.

    greetz rob

  14. - Top - End - #104
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: How should I build a character to kill Nerull?

    Were I watching this movie, I would predict you replacing Nerull.
    So far as I understand:

    1: Nerull has killed you, stripped you of everything, and then brought you back, an action at goes directly against his base nature. (I think he wants everything everywhere dead right?)
    Speaks strongly of ulterior motives
    Why did he need to use your body to blast the world to ash? Why not just do it himself? fear of retribution?

    2: you are now effectively immortal. this is, again, against everything Nerull stands for.

    there are only 2 reasons that I can think of as to why he's doing this.

    -You are to become a weapon for use in exterminating everything everywhere (you get to the epic level of power required to kill gods, and he takes you over again?)

    -You are to kill him, for some reason. Prophecy probably.


    in character, the two plans are:
    -be an epic magic user, and trade nukes with him
    -be an epic magic user, and capture>wait 20 weeks>kill
    -be an epic nonmagical warrior and get him to come to the null zone of the outer plane.


    I do feel like you need to find a maguffin for any of this though.
    It will probably be less important that you are able to beat his numbers than it is that you are prepared for the encounter
    Gives you something to do at pre-epic levels at any rate

  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Default Re: How should I build a character to kill Nerull?

    Red Wizard Shadowcraft mage shenanigans

    He saves and takes damage, automatic. He even takes more damage for saving. You get your DCs and Caster Level up so high for one insta-kill spell and you'll have no problem. On the other side, thrallherd.
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  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Default Re: How should I build a character to kill Nerull?

    Just because we haven't tossed out EVERY ridiculous trick in the book here's a couple more...

    Option 1: Cancer Mage could give you an arbitrarily high Str score. Just wait till it's high enough to kill him in a single hit with that nice hammer of yours (3 years at most with no real optimization) and then go with your "beat him senseless and soul trap him" plan.

    Option 2: Tainted Scholar can give you an arbitrarily high primary casting stat. Pick any given damage spell that has uncapped damage, metamagic it to bypass his various immunities, and go to town. This has the added bonus, with enough metamagic, of potentially working from outside his divine senses.

  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: How should I build a character to kill Nerull?

    Quote Originally Posted by donnerdrummel View Post
    hey,

    heres a thing that might help. Quite some time ago i was playing some campaign and basicly there was a dead god now alive again going around and killing other gods for their divine ranks with a word that kills - even gods. later we found out that this was the basic (and way more powerfull) version of the power word "xxxxx" spells.
    theese words are some pretty obscure knowledge but after some epic questing for the regulators (epic lvl handbook p.244) Mella Theeg might be able to point you in the right direction.
    just one or two story hooks, but heres the most important thing you need - your DM`s aproval and good will.
    if you dont have that we can strongarm and RAW your ass of the hook and
    whatever and it still will not work.

    greetz rob
    That would be Orcus, dead, coming back as Tenebrous, finding the Last Word and using it to kill gods. The Last Word will do the kill, but the problem is getting around the 17-week advance warning. Try teaming up with Vecna for Vecna-Blooded?

  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: How should I build a character to kill Nerull?

    Quote Originally Posted by kardar233 View Post
    That would be Orcus, dead, coming back as Tenebrous, finding the Last Word and using it to kill gods. The Last Word will do the kill, but the problem is getting around the 17-week advance warning. Try teaming up with Vecna for Vecna-Blooded?
    1) Unfortunately Orcus or "Tenebrous" destroyed all records of the newly named "Orcusword". Indeed Knowledge of the Orcusword makes you a threat to every single power in the universe (Yes, Including the DM and by connection Ao) but ...I'm not sure if luckily is the best way to put it, Orcus is the only person in all of creation to know it.

    2) This would actually be right up Vecna's Alley way I'm confident you can also get other Divine creatures to back you up on the hostile take over of a deities domains including but not limited to: Asmodeus (Most if not all the Lords of the Nine would be willing to help actually if you can get Asmodeus in on this), Vecna, Orcus, Heironeous, honestly any deity in the cosmos would work really... Nerull isn't very well liked... Of course the odds of YOU surviving this encounter is very well slim to none... and even if you do whats keeping these other Divine Juggernauts from leaping in and kill stealing you? (And then promptly killing you) I think such an alliance would pretty much be the entire death of all of creation making this an impossiblity...
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    Default Re: How should I build a character to kill Nerull?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calanon View Post
    I think such an alliance would pretty much be the entire death of all of creation making this an impossiblity...
    You say impossiblity... I say TOTALLY HAPPENING!

    Mass god carnage... American Gods flashback.
    Having trouble writing up hard stat blocks but I'm doing a lot of sharing ideas and soft mechanics lately.

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    Default Re: How should I build a character to kill Nerull?

    Alternate plan. Kill everyone who worships Nerull and mind wipe everyone else to forget about his existence. Then, when you are the only being in the universe who knows who Nerull is, give yourself amnesia. Without any belief to sustain him, Nerull will not be a problem.

    Depending on how the gods work in your DMs setting, but power based on belief/worhsip/sacrifice is the most common one I've run into. Gaiman has already been mentioned so I feel no need to go there.
    Last edited by SowZ; 2012-03-26 at 01:50 AM.
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    Default Re: How should I build a character to kill Nerull?

    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ View Post
    Alternate plan. Kill everyone who worships Nerull and mind wipe everyone else to forget about his existence. Then, when you are the only being in the universe who knows who Nerull is, give yourself amnesia. Without any belief to sustain him, Nerull will not be a problem.

    Depending on how the gods work in your DMs setting, but power based on belief/worhsip/sacrifice is the most common one I've run into. Gaiman has already been mentioned so I feel no need to go there.
    This has actually been done in FR (Kiaransalee is killed by an Epic spell that rewrites everybody's memories to forget her), but as you're in Greyhawk (I'm assuming, as Nerull is a Greyhawk deity) it might not wash.

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    Default Re: How should I build a character to kill Nerull?

    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ View Post
    Alternate plan. Kill everyone who worships Nerull and mind wipe everyone else to forget about his existence. Then, when you are the only being in the universe who knows who Nerull is, give yourself amnesia. Without any belief to sustain him, Nerull will not be a problem.

    Depending on how the gods work in your DMs setting, but power based on belief/worhsip/sacrifice is the most common one I've run into. Gaiman has already been mentioned so I feel no need to go there.
    This actually happened... ONCE! and it was Elven High Magic (Like Netherese Archwizardry except ya know, not as good) ... Elven High magic exploits Ritual factors meaning if you have enough casters giving enough spells you can kill gods... (Where as with Netherese Archwizardry you can just "do it yourself" ask yourself, which is better? I believe the answer will be obvious...)

    But imo Elven High Magic is complete crap (Full ritual that kills a god... and kills the caster and everyone else giving up a spell slot, in effect almost killing an entire people just to kill one creature) ... but in all fairness I am an obviously bias source favoring Netherese Archwizardry

    On a side note: in some settings Kiaransalee is still alive, however in most she is either killed by Orcus, Hides in the Demon Web from Orcus, Killed by Epic Magic, OR alive and well doing her own thing... in most of them she is killed however...
    Last edited by Calanon; 2012-03-26 at 04:19 AM.
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    Default Re: How should I build a character to kill Nerull?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calanon View Post
    This actually happened... ONCE! and it was Elven High Magic (Like Netherese Archwizardry except ya know, not as good) ... Elven High magic exploits Ritual factors meaning if you have enough casters giving enough spells you can kill gods... (Where as with Netherese Archwizardry you can just "do it yourself" ask yourself, which is better? I believe the answer will be obvious...)

    But imo Elven High Magic is complete crap (Full ritual that kills a god... and kills the caster and everyone else giving up a spell slot, in effect almost killing an entire people just to kill one creature) ... but in all fairness I am an obviously bias source favoring Netherese Archwizardry

    On a side note: in some settings Kiaransalee is still alive, however in most she is either killed by Orcus, Hides in the Demon Web from Orcus, Killed by Epic Magic, OR alive and well doing her own thing... in most of them she is killed however...
    High elven mages tend to focus more on benefitting the elven community while netherese mages focus on how it benefits them. I prefer the latter.
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    Default Re: How should I build a character to kill Nerull?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wavelab View Post
    High elven mages tend to focus more on benefitting the elven community while netherese mages focus on how it benefits them. I prefer the latter.
    "Isn't that how magic is SUPPOSED to be? Magic was given by the gods to serve man not to be treated as some sort of "sacred treasure" Magic is limitless, it is all around us, we should not concern ourselves with a limitless resource "running out". As long as we are able to pluck spells from the weave as a druid plucks berries from shrubs we shall be fine..."
    -The Netherese Council of Mages

    In all fairness they actually had it right... and then a man named "Karsus" had to burn the shrub

    Anywho! Epic Magic is certainly your best bet for taking down a god... ask your DM the dimensions (Miles in diameter) of your planet and then we start with the Energy Seed [Weather effect] I have an idea! how about we make it rain all over the planet except the rain makes everyone forget some stuff... specifically that Nerull exist!
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    Default Re: How should I build a character to kill Nerull?

    How to kill a greater deity with Alter Reality and without using Pun-Pun or Ice Assassin Divine Rank shenanigans.

    Do not even think of attacking him until after everything else in the following plan has been done. Attacking a god is going to trigger his portfolio sense. That gives him advance warning, and you will not succeed if the god has advance warning.

    Becoming utterly immortal and unkillable:

    Step 1: Have the Epic feat Ignore Material Components.
    Step 2: Create an Ice Assassin of a Mind Flayer Psion (telepath) with a level greater than your own and physical ability scores in the 70s or so.
    Step 3: Order the Ice Assassin to True Mind Switch with you.
    Step 4: Kill your Ice Assassin.
    Step 5: Gain 10 levels in the Illithid Savant prestige class.
    Step 8: Create an Ice Assassin of an Aleax of yourself.
    Step 9: Order it to shapechange into a form with a brain.
    Step 10: Consume it's brain and gain the Ex ability Singular Enemy.
    Step 11: Create an Ice Assassin of an Aleax Mind Flayer Psion (Telepath) of a level higher than your own with true mind switch and whatever physical abilities you want.
    Step 12: Order it to True Mind Switch with you.

    Congratulations, you now currently have two copies of the Singular Enemy ability each with a different singular enemy (one of which is yourself). This means that nothing in the multiverse can harm you in any way.

    ---
    Now it's time to get you a whole host of abilities and qualities. This basically means using the Ice Assassin trick to produce brains of yourself to consume to multiply your abilities and brains of other creatures and characters so that you get every ability that is even remotely useful in the entire game. Once you have done that it's time to make use of Epic Casting.

    What you do is create an Origin of the Species spell (using Ice Assassins to mitigate the DC down) with every epic ability as an Ex that you can conceive of (multiple separate creatures so that the DC doesn't get too insane) that are utterly loyal to you and then consume their brains to gain those abilities.

    Now, you should consume the brain of a Vecna Blooded creature every day so that you acquire an updated the Cloak of Mysteries (Su) ability; the ability only hides all knowledge of you up to the time you gain the ability so you need to keep getting a new copy to keep your plans and actions mostly hidden. It still doesn't keep you safe from Portfolio sense but it does make you safer.

    Now, one of the Origin of the Species creations of yours should have an Ex ability based on an epic spell with a free action casting time that uses the Contact and Transport seeds (along with hideously boosted saving throw requirements) to locate anyone or anything that you are familiar with and then transport them to any location that you are familiar with (make sure that it is capable of extraplanar transport and does not use the Astral plane).

    Another spell choice should be a Ward spell that excludes all spells of up to say level 10 with a radius of a hundred miles or so.

    The last epic spell choice you need to include is an area of effect dispel based on the Dispel seed with a radius around you of 100 miles when activated. Make sure that the CL check is boosted to an absurd level and that this is also an Ex ability for your target creature.

    Then travel to within a hundred miles of the Spire in the Outlands. Spend the next 20 weeks there. Use your Ex Ward ability to shut down magic in the area. Use your Ex Dispel ability to suppress magic items until you turn it off. Use your Ex teleport ability to rip Nerull to your location, this strips him of all his divine abilities, blocks the casting of all other spells/powers, and shuts down all of his magic items including artifacts.

    Now you beat him to death, or use another Epic Ex ability to kill him. This shouldn't be difficult considering that you have had 20 weeks to prepare the battlefield, have every ability in the game, and can't be harmed.

    Congratulations, you killed an overdeity. Granted, the above plan will allow you to kill anything short of the Lady of Pain and it utterly abuses the Illithid Savant but it is RAW legal, doesn't require DM adjudication, and works.
    Last edited by Emperor Tippy; 2012-03-26 at 07:55 PM.
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    Default Re: How should I build a character to kill Nerull?

    I hereby state and confirm, that Tippy is a bad enough dude to kill Nerull.

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    Default Re: How should I build a character to kill Nerull?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    *stuff*



    I think you just won D&D...
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    Default Re: How should I build a character to kill Nerull?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myth View Post
    I hereby state and confirm, that Tippy is a bad enough dude to kill Nerull.

    Seconded... And the motion carries!


    As usual, Tippy wins the thread.
    Having trouble writing up hard stat blocks but I'm doing a lot of sharing ideas and soft mechanics lately.

  29. - Top - End - #119
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    Default Re: How should I build a character to kill Nerull?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    How to kill a greater deity with Alter Reality and without using Pun-Pun or Ice Assassin Divine Rank shenanigans.

    Do not even think of attacking him until after everything else in the following plan has been done. Attacking a god is going to trigger his portfolio sense. That gives him advance warning, and you will not succeed if the god has advance warning.

    Becoming utterly immortal and unkillable:

    Step 1: Have the Epic feat Ignore Material Components.
    Step 2: Create an Ice Assassin of a Mind Flayer Psion (telepath) with a level greater than your own and physical ability scores in the 70s or so.
    Step 3: Order the Ice Assassin to True Mind Switch with you.
    Step 4: Kill your Ice Assassin.
    Step 5: Gain 10 levels in the Illithid Savant prestige class.
    Step 8: Create an Ice Assassin of an Aleax of yourself.
    Step 9: Order it to shapechange into a form with a brain.
    Step 10: Consume it's brain and gain the Ex ability Singular Enemy.
    Step 11: Create an Ice Assassin of an Aleax Mind Flayer Psion (Telepath) of a level higher than your own with true mind switch and whatever physical abilities you want.
    Step 12: Order it to True Mind Switch with you.

    Congratulations, you now currently have two copies of the Singular Enemy ability each with a different singular enemy (one of which is yourself). This means that nothing in the multiverse can harm you in any way.

    ---
    Now it's time to get you a whole host of abilities and qualities. This basically means using the Ice Assassin trick to produce brains of yourself to consume to multiply your abilities and brains of other creatures and characters so that you get every ability that is even remotely useful in the entire game. Once you have done that it's time to make use of Epic Casting.

    What you do is create an Origin of the Species spell (using Ice Assassins to mitigate the DC down) with every epic ability as an Ex that you can conceive of (multiple separate creatures so that the DC doesn't get too insane) that are utterly loyal to you and then consume their brains to gain those abilities.

    Now, you should consume the brain of a Vecna Blooded creature every day so that you acquire an updated the Cloak of Mysteries (Su) ability; the ability only hides all knowledge of you up to the time you gain the ability so you need to keep getting a new copy to keep your plans and actions mostly hidden. It still doesn't keep you safe from Portfolio sense but it does make you safer.

    Now, one of the Origin of the Species creations of yours should have an Ex ability based on an epic spell with a free action casting time that uses the Contact and Transport seeds (along with hideously boosted saving throw requirements) to locate anyone or anything that you are familiar with and then transport them to any location that you are familiar with (make sure that it is capable of extraplanar transport and does not use the Astral plane).

    Another spell choice should be a Ward spell that excludes all spells of up to say level 10 with a radius of a hundred miles or so.

    The last epic spell choice you need to include is an area of effect dispel based on the Dispel seed with a radius around you of 100 miles when activated. Make sure that the CL check is boosted to an absurd level and that this is also an Ex ability for your target creature.

    Then travel to within a hundred miles of the Spire in the Outlands. Spend the next 20 weeks there. Use your Ex Ward ability to shut down magic in the area. Use your Ex Dispel ability to suppress magic items until you turn it off. Use your Ex teleport ability to rip Nerull to your location, this strips him of all his divine abilities, blocks the casting of all other spells/powers, and shuts down all of his magic items including artifacts.

    Now you beat him to death, or use another Epic Ex ability to kill him. This shouldn't be difficult considering that you have had 20 weeks to prepare the battlefield, have every ability in the game, and can't be harmed.

    Congratulations, you killed an overdeity. Granted, the above plan will allow you to kill anything short of the Lady of Pain and it utterly abuses the Illithid Savant but it is RAW legal, doesn't require DM adjudication, and works.


    Wow... just... wow... My... wow... ...
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  30. - Top - End - #120
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    Default Re: How should I build a character to kill Nerull?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calanon View Post
    Wow... just... wow... My... wow... ...

    BEHOLD THE GLORY THAT IS LORD TIPPY!

    FEAR! TREMBLE! BOW IN AWE BEFORE HIM!


    Seriously though, Tippy is very much responsible for my approach to fantasy gaming. Medieval stasis is for WOTC. (i.e. losers)
    Last edited by The Mentalist; 2012-03-27 at 01:32 AM.
    Having trouble writing up hard stat blocks but I'm doing a lot of sharing ideas and soft mechanics lately.

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