How should I build a character to kill Nerull?

[Aharon]

Carry out the entire plan at the base of the Spire, he learns nothing thanks to Divine Abilities not functioning in that area.

Even assuming your permissive reading of portfolio sense, you could still get around it.

Too bad nothing else works, either
Still possible, but you'll burn through quite a lot of Rings of Free Casting.

BTW, can I assume that you conceed the point that the technicality I raised matters, since this is TO? You didn't adress it anymore.

[Emperor Tippy]

Too bad nothing else works, either
Still possible, but you'll burn through quite a lot of Rings of Free Casting.

Rings of Free Casting? No idea what those are, source and page? Assuming that it has to do with XP, getting around the XP cost is trivial; my preferred method is a thought bottle.

BTW, can I assume that you conceed the point that the technicality I raised matters, since this is TO? You didn't adress it anymore.

Not really. Standard in TO involving Epic Magic is to accept anything that requires no ad hoc alterations, so long as an Epic spell uses only the published abilities of the Seeds and modifiers it qualifies in TO that allows epic magic.

[Aharon]

Rings of Free Casting? No idea what those are, source and page? Assuming that it has to do with XP, getting around the XP cost is trivial; my preferred method is a thought bottle.


Not really. Standard in TO involving Epic Magic is to accept anything that requires no ad hoc alterations, so long as an Epic spell uses only the published abilities of the Seeds and modifiers it qualifies in TO that allows epic magic.

@Rings of Free Casting
Planar Handbook, no idea which page, allow casting in areas of limited/impeded magic, 50 charges, 1 charge/spell level, item costs 45.000 gp.

Assuming WBL and no item creation abuse, that gets costly. Assuming gloves of item creation and optimisation, it doesn't, of course.

How were you planning to cast your Ice Assassins without it?

@epic spells
I was not aware of that. Little TO I know uses epic casting, because it's so easy to abuse its not even fun. Can you point out an example, please?

@Optimized gods
Persistent Timeless Body to prevent your (ex) teleport?

[Calanon]

@Rings of Free magic
Planar Handbook, no idea which page, allow casting in areas of limited/impeded magic, 50 charges, 1 charge/spell level, item costs 45.000 gp.

page 80 of the Planar Handbook. 1 Charge per spell level. Does impeded magic mean that the ring functions on a dead magic plane?

[Aharon]

page 80 of the Planar Handbook. 1 Charge per spell level. Does impeded magic mean that the ring functions on a dead magic plane?

I don't think so. impeded, limited and dead are keywords designating planar traits wrt magic: SRD

The ring only mentions impeded and limited, not dead, in its description.

[Emperor Tippy]

You can get free items using Wish abuse, and you can cast wish XP free thanks to Illithid Savant.

Leaving that aside, I was just using Craft Contingent Ice Assassins. Limited Magic doesn't stop the use of magic items and Craft Contingent has the spell precast, it just comes into effect when the contingency activates.

Rings of Free Magic would be less rules iffy, so just grab a few hundred or a few thousand.

[Taelas]

Look, all this TO is fine for what it is, but it probably isn't helping the OP any. Very few people allow blanket wish-abuse or thought bottle-abuse.

[Emperor Tippy]

Look, all this TO is fine for what it is, but it probably isn't helping the OP any. Very few people allow blanket wish-abuse or thought bottle-abuse.

The OP asked how to kill a greater deity. You aren't going to kill any greater deity by the rules without utterly mangling them. If you biggest beef is with wish abuse or XP mitigation abuse then you clearly missed the point. This is a build that is abusing Illithid Savant (the single most flat out powerful class in the entire history of D&D, no joke) for all it's worth and one of the first steps in the process was becoming truly and utterly unkillable. The only way to die with dual Singular Enemy abilities with different enemies is to use Backlash Mitigation on an epic spell, as that specifically bypasses any and all immunities.

[Taelas]

It isn't that my greatest beef is with those things; it's more like the straw that broke the camel's back. (Also, I have a long-standing hatred of wish-abuse.)

[Aharon]

Limited Magic doesn't stop the use of magic items and Craft Contingent has the spell precast, it just comes into effect when the contingency activates.

It doesn't come to effect, I think.

Limited Magic: These planes only permit spells and spell-like abilities from certain schools, subschools, descriptors, or levels to be cast. Other spells and spell-like abilities simply don't work; for them, this plane functions like a dead magic plane.(bolded part omitted in SRD)

These planes have no magic at all. A plane with the dead magic trait functions in all respects like an antimagic field spell. Divination spells cannot detect subjects within a dead magic plane, nor can a spellcaster use teleport or another spell to move in or out. The only exception to the “no magic” rule is permanent planar portals, which still function normally.

Antimagic Field doesn't care wether the effect was created by a caster or an item, so if the item has a spell effect that belongs to the impeded spells, it doesn't work.

It doesn't matter, since Ring of Free Magic works, as doe Invoke Magic and Initiate of Mystra (if you rule that it works in areas that function the same way a dead magic zone does). You were a bit sloppy, though

[Emperor Tippy]

It doesn't come to effect, I think.

Antimagic Field doesn't care wether the effect was created by a caster or an item, so if the item has a spell effect that belongs to the impeded spells, it doesn't work.

It doesn't matter, since Ring of Free Magic works, as doe Invoke Magic and Initiate of Mystra (if you rule that it works in areas that function the same way a dead magic zone does). You were a bit sloppy, though

*shrug*
I still say you are fine to do all the prep work anywhere you like, say on your private demiplane, and the god won't notice. If you need to be absolutely sure that the god doesn't notice though then you do it at the Spire, and use one of several methods to get around the no casting restriction.

[Aharon]

Oh, and since you seem to have missed those (happens...)

@epic spells
I was not aware of their usual application in TO. Can you point out an example, please?

@Optimized gods
Persistent Timeless Body to prevent your (ex) teleport?

[Emperor Tippy]

Oh, and since you seem to have missed those (happens...)

@epic spells
I was not aware of their usual application in TO. Can you point out an example, please?

I don't feel like finding a thread, it's just the general convention (although Epic spellcasting rarely comes up in TO discussions).

@Optimized gods
Persistent Timeless Body to prevent your (ex) teleport?

Technically doesn't work. Alter Reality can only make spells permanent, it says nothing about making powers permanent.

[Aharon]

I don't feel like finding a thread, it's just the general convention (although Epic spellcasting rarely comes up in TO discussions).


Technically doesn't work. Alter Reality can only make spells permanent, it says nothing about making powers permanent.

@Thread
Fair enough

@Timeless Body
Psionic-Magic Transparency?

@Ice Assassin of Aleax
This isn't as easy as you make it out to be. The following is hidden in the section normally reserved to fluff, but contains rules information:

An aleax does not exist until it is called into being by a deity.
The deity imbues the aleax with a fragment of his or her consciousness
before sending it to the location of its intended
victim. [...]A deity may have only one aleax at any given
time, and an aleax cannot be sent after more
than one creature. A deity cannot send a new
aleax to exact vengeance against a character who
has killed the deity’s aleax once before.

So even assuming you manage to enrage a god sufficiently to send an aleax to you, you have to win a mirror match and afterwards cast for 8 hours. But once again, we're firmly in DM adjudication territory, because he decides wether an aleax of you currently exists or not (unless you want to argue that, given infinite planes, there must be infinite gods, thus one enraged at you, thus one aleax - this can easily be countered with infinite gods, thus a still infinite subset enraged at you, thus infinite aleaxes).

[Emperor Tippy]

@Timeless Body
Psionic-Magic Transparency?

Is often drastically overstated.

Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.

When the rule about psionics-magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications.

Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.)

All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa.

The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura).

Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas.

Psi/Magic Transparency has 4 effects by RAW; it let's dispel work both ways, it let's detect magic/psionics work both ways, it causes dead magic/psionic areas to be the same, and it makes spell and power resistance the same. That's all.

[Glassteel]

DM has confirmed that she is using Dicefreaks version of Nerull with a couple little fluff abilities added on. Also, if portfolio sense only alerts Nerull that death will occur, is occuring, has occured, and that is all (no specific info unless he remote views), doesn't that mean that he ISN'T actually aware of his own impending demise, preventing him the time he needs to buff in advance (assuming the DM doesn't just take all the best buff spells and make them permanent on him via Alter Reality, even if she does tho, Disjunction or some similar ability will negate them, Planar Shepard's bubble still cancels them since they're Divine Powers). Probably going with a Druid/Planar Shepard up one side of the Gestalt, with Shapechange abuse at high levels for free wishes, True Creation, and maybe more. Any other suggestions? I've also told the DM I might be setting my goals a little lower. Beating Nerull into helplessness and casting Stasis on him sounds fun, but I may just pound on him a little, rescue the Damsel in Mind Control, and GTHO of Dodge...Thoughts? I'd still like to kill him, but I'm not seeing anything here that encourages my ability to do so...

[Emperor Tippy]

DM has confirmed that she is using Dicefreaks version of Nerull with a couple little fluff abilities added on. Also, if portfolio sense only alerts Nerull that death will occur, is occuring, has occured, and that is all (no specific info unless he remote views), doesn't that mean that he ISN'T actually aware of his own impending demise, preventing him the time he needs to buff in advance (assuming the DM doesn't just take all the best buff spells and make them permanent on him via Alter Reality, even if she does tho, Disjunction or some similar ability will negate them, Planar Shepard's bubble still cancels them since they're Divine Powers). Probably going with a Druid/Planar Shepard up one side of the Gestalt, with Shapechange abuse at high levels for free wishes, True Creation, and maybe more. Any other suggestions? I've also told the DM I might be setting my goals a little lower. Beating Nerull into helplessness and casting Stasis on him sounds fun, but I may just pound on him a little, rescue the Damsel in Mind Control, and GTHO of Dodge...Thoughts? I'd still like to kill him, but I'm not seeing anything here that encourages my ability to do so...

I told you how to kill him. Planar Shepard won't work as Druids are Divine Casters and emulating the Spire would shut down Planar Bubble as it is an Su ability; the Limited Magic trait would also do that. Nerull will also be immune to Disjunction.

[Glassteel]

Except that Planar Shepherds are immune to the negative side effects of their own bubble and can make others immune to it as well. Negating my own spell casting and SU's sounds a lot like a negative side effect...

[Emperor Tippy]

Except that Planar Shepherds are immune to the negative side effects of their own bubble and can make others immune to it as well. Negating my own spell casting and SU's sounds a lot like a negative side effect...

Read the Planar Shepard more closely, the last sentence of Planar Attunement to be precise; this ability does not apply to gravity, time, alignment, and magic traits.

[Vendle]

Epic magic solves everything.
Here's a quick version of Soul Dominion that lets you possess Nerull, because turnabout is fair play.

Spoiler

Show

Possess Nerull

Divination - Enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]
Spellcraft DC: 140
Casting time: 1 action
Components: none
Range: see text
Target: One creature
Duration: 20 hours
Save: Increase DC by 40, Will negates
SR: yes, +50 to caster level to overcome SR
----
Development:
1,260,000gp, 26 days; 50,400xp.
Seeds: Contact (23), Compel (19), Reveal (19), Ward (14),
Transform (21)
Compel unreasonable action (possession): DC +10
Reduce casting time to 1 action: DC +20
No verbal component: DC +2
No somatic component: DC +2
Increase saving throw DC by 40: DC +80
Nullify Spells that prevent possession 1-10 (+20)
Apply to all five senses, (+8)
Burn 20,000XP, (-200)
Stricter action control (ad hoc +11)
Overcome natural immunity to mind control (+10)
Bonus to Overcome Spell Resistance +50 (+100)
------
Caster must have at least 22HD. This spell allows you to possess and completely control one creature, ignoring immunity to mind control and nearly all wards against possession. If the Will save fails, the character is able to control the subject’s body as if it were his or her own, hearing, seeing, feeling, smelling, and tasting everything the target senses. If the target is compelled to perform an action it is diametrically opposed to, it can attempt a save to refuse that particular action.

Good points: You only need familiarity with the subject; having him formerly possessing you makes that a given.
You don't even have to be on the same plane, so 17-19 miles is no issue.
No death inherently involved in the spell, but his Portfolio Sense will probably be triggered because I would totally be abusing his powers on his own followers.

Overcoming immunity to mind control had to be extrapolated from the Transform seed, because it's the only seed that overcomes immunities that I could find.

[Taelas]

Uh, no, that doesn't work. The Transform seed overcomes incorporeal and gaseous' creatures natural immunity to transformation; it says nothing about deities' divine immunities. (Yes, deities are also immune to transformation.)

There's no way to get around a deity's immunity to mind-affecting effects without being a deity of equal or higher divine rank.

[Glassteel]

Epic Spellcasting, however, DOES solve quite a few problems. An immunity spell for say, Golem Immunities, would let me ignore most of his abilities, magic, etc, I just need a way to get around having a Constitution score temporarily without giving up my stats (Shapechange could lower my stats and render VERY important magic items unusable). His Dust to Dust (again, Dicefreaks version) could pose a problem, since it specifically ignores immunities. I could craft a destruction seed spell to temporarily wipe away HIS immunities (but turn-a-play is fair play, so I have to be careful). A creation seed spell could allow me to conjure Purple Mist from Dungeonscape quite easily, a wonderful hazard that prevents ALL extradimensional travel (teleportation, planar travel, dimension door, etc) within its area and it isn't blown away by wind. A perfect "Lock-Down" to keep him in melee range, but I still need to deal with his magic and divine abilities

[Varil]

If portfolio sense doesn't work near the Spire, and the problem is killing Ice Assassins, couldn't you just create them on any given plane, then send them to the spire with orders to commit suicide? Or just go with them and kill them, then come back using some shenanigans, since I'm sure coming back is somewhere in the shenanigans list.

[Kittenwolf]

Depending on the specifics of his Portfolio Sense, you could always wander into Sigil (where even Greater Deities cannot meddle) and start researching an Epic Spell that (Familicide-style) just nukes every worshiper of Nerull, after which he should only be a Minor deity and thus within striking distance :)

[Calanon]

Epic magic solves everything.
Here's a quick version of Soul Dominion that lets you possess Nerull, because turnabout is fair play.

Spoiler

Show

Possess Nerull

Divination - Enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]
Spellcraft DC: 140
Casting time: 1 action
Components: none
Range: see text
Target: One creature
Duration: 20 hours
Save: Increase DC by 40, Will negates
SR: yes, +50 to caster level to overcome SR
----
Development:
1,260,000gp, 26 days; 50,400xp.
Seeds: Contact (23), Compel (19), Reveal (19), Ward (14),
Transform (21)
Compel unreasonable action (possession): DC +10
Reduce casting time to 1 action: DC +20
No verbal component: DC +2
No somatic component: DC +2
Increase saving throw DC by 40: DC +80
Nullify Spells that prevent possession 1-10 (+20)
Apply to all five senses, (+8)
Burn 20,000XP, (-200)
Stricter action control (ad hoc +11)
Overcome natural immunity to mind control (+10)
Bonus to Overcome Spell Resistance +50 (+100)
------
Caster must have at least 22HD. This spell allows you to possess and completely control one creature, ignoring immunity to mind control and nearly all wards against possession. If the Will save fails, the character is able to control the subject’s body as if it were his or her own, hearing, seeing, feeling, smelling, and tasting everything the target senses. If the target is compelled to perform an action it is diametrically opposed to, it can attempt a save to refuse that particular action.

Good points: You only need familiarity with the subject; having him formerly possessing you makes that a given.
You don't even have to be on the same plane, so 17-19 miles is no issue.
No death inherently involved in the spell, but his Portfolio Sense will probably be triggered because I would totally be abusing his powers on his own followers.

Overcoming immunity to mind control had to be extrapolated from the Transform seed, because it's the only seed that overcomes immunities that I could find.

Thats not how epic magic works...
Gods are naturally immune to all Mind affectings effects... like the entire Enchantment school

Damn, atleast my spell was possible by killing him with raw damage that he is not immune to...

[Alleran]

There's no way to get around a deity's immunity to mind-affecting effects without being a deity of equal or higher divine rank.

Could you hit them with a Necrotic Cyst and follow through with a Necrotic Tumour? Just hope that you can get Nerull to fail his saving throw. The spells are in LM. The first creates a cyst inside the body of the target, and the second is basically like a permanent dominate spell that, among other things, isn't a mind-affecting effect. Nor does a Protection from Evil or similar spell prevent the target from following your commands.

The only problem is first getting the cyst to form (assuming you can break past Nerull's saves somehow, and I think he receives an auto-20 on all his rolls?), since you'd have to shut down any protection from evil or similar spell first (if it's already in place beforehand, then it will block the cyst).

[Taelas]

Deities are immune to "attacks that alter its form", so it wouldn't work. You can't form the necrotic cyst, and even if you could, you couldn't change it afterwards.

[Rubik]

<snip> Becoming utterly immortal and unkillable: </snip>

I don't quite see the logic of having two aleaxes in either case, since there's a mind flayer out there somewhere capable of killing you (or possibly your other aleax, depending, and if that's so your other aleax can kill you).

There're also two other ways to do this, without becoming an illithid:

1. Find a Big Bloody Rock^TM.
2. Use Polymorph Any Object on the rock to turn it into some mighty-but-inoffensive creature, such as a humpback whale. Or maybe something really nasty, such as a templated 12-headed hydra or an elemental weird (and yes, elementals are living creatures, as they have Con scores -- just create its pool in a safe spot, such as on your Genesis'd plane, then astrally project out when you want to be out and about).
3. Dominate the rock-whale (or whatever it is).
4. Use Metamorphosis, Expansion, or some other effect to turn into something of the same size and type as the rock-whale (likely another whale).
5. Manifest Fusion to merge with the rock-whale.
6. Dismiss the Metamorphosis effect, thereby becoming a strange rock-whale hybrid (of your size category, unless you want to be naturally Gargantuan sized).
7. Create an ice assassin of an aleax of yourself in your new Fused hybrid-rock-whale body. (Use Eschew Materials if need be.)
8. Command it to use Shapechange to turn itself into something not immune to mind-affecting effects suitable for use with (True) Mind Switch and command it to lower its SR and fail the next saving throw against any and all powers you manifest against it.
9. Manifest (True) Mind Switch on it.
10. Dismiss or Dispel the Fusion effect on your old half-rock-whale body.
11. Dismiss or Dispel the PAO effect on the rock-whale.
12. Disintegrate the whale-rock. Or for a slightly more paranoid approach (and why not?) use Stone to Mud and Purify Food and Drink, then scatter the water between deep space, the elemental plane of water, the elemental plane of fire, the negative energy plane, and the nearest city's water supply, along with Disintegrating the leftover dirt. For bonus points use Prestidigitation to clean it into oblivion.

Alternately you can just find a critter, Fuse with it, then Disintegrate your old Fused body after you're done, but then there's a chance (however insignificant) of it being Raised and then Fused. Or you could use Metamorphic Transfer after you've turned into a barghest AND DEVOURED ITS SOUL.

OR you can just use a Wish to grant yourself the aleax template, a la Savage Species, specifying that you're your own target. So long as you have enough Spellcraft ranks to get a roll of 40+ without fail you get all the abilities with no chance of error. Since you're under your absolute control you could order yourself to not have the compulsion to kill yourself and you should be fine.

Voila!

Now you'll be utterly indestructible, since the only creature capable of hurting you does not exist and will never exist again (though since YOU are technically still the target for the aleax, you might be able to harm yourself; don't do that). It isn't technically dead either, so you don't evaporate into the ether, or whatever. (I didn't see any specification as to what happens when the aleax's target is killed.)

[Rubik]

On the other hand here you can argue that anything that CAN exist in an infinite reality MUST eventually exist considering the nature of infinite possibility.

It's The Great Wheel's Rule 34.

[kardar233]

I don't quite see the logic of having two aleaxes in either case, since there's a mind flayer out there somewhere capable of killing you (or possibly your other aleax, depending, and if that's so your other aleax can kill you).

No, the point is of having two copies of Singular Enemy each keyed to a different creature. Thus, unless you can be two things at once well enough to fool Singular Enemy, you can't hurt the guy.