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    Default The True Necromancer (A Seraphi Homebrew Fix) 3.5 PrC, PEACH

    The True Necromancer


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    Prerequisites:
    In order to become a true necromancer, you must meet all of the following prerequisites:

    Alignment: Any evil
    Skills: Knowledge (Religion) 11 ranks
    Feat: Spell Focus (Necromancy), Corpsecrafter
    Special: Able to rebuke undead
    Spellcasting: Able to cast at least three arcane necromancy spells, at least one of which must be 2nd level or higher, able to cast animate dead as a divine spell

    HD: d6
    Class Skills: The true necromancer's class skills are Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (All skills, taken individually), Profession, and Spellcraft.
    Skill Points: 2+Int per level

    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spells

    1st|
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |Rebuke Undead, True Necromancy, Death Research|

    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |Unholy Presence|+1 level of existing arcane and divine spellcasting classes

    3rd|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |Mighty Decay|+1 level of existing arcane and divine spellcasting classes

    4th|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Empower Death|+1 level of existing arcane and divine spellcasting classes

    5th|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Undead Resistances +4|+1 level of existing arcane and divine spellcasting classes

    6th|
    +4
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Negative Energy Affinity|+1 level of existing arcane and divine spellcasting classes

    7th|
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Master of Undeath|+1 level of existing arcane and divine spellcasting classes

    8th|
    +6
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    |Undead Resistances +8|+1 level of existing arcane and divine spellcasting classes

    9th|
    +6
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    |Life Drain|+1 level of existing arcane and divine spellcasting classes

    10th|
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |Soul Bind|+1 level of existing arcane and divine spellcasting classes

    11th|
    +8
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |Craft Wondrous Item|+1 level of existing arcane and divine spellcasting classes

    12th|
    +9
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |Ritual of Unspeakable Evil|+1 level of existing arcane and divine spellcasting classes
    [/table]


    Class Features: The following are the class features of the true necromancer.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: True necromancers gain proficiency with the scythe.

    Spellcasting: At each level except first, the true necromancer gains additional spells per day, access to higher level spells, and an increase in caster level as if he had gained a level in the wizard class, as well additional spells per day, access to higher level spells, and an increase in caster level as if he gained a level in a divine spellcasting class that grants him the ability to cast animate dead. If the true necromancer has levels in more than one divine spellcasting class that grants him the ability to cast animate dead, he must choose one class to advance at each level up. The true necromancer does not receive any other benefits from either class, such as an increase in effective cleric level for the purpose of domains or free spells from the Spellbook class feature.

    Rebuke Undead (Su): A true necromancer uses his full character level to determine his effective cleric level for the purposes of rebuking and commanding undead.

    True Necromancy (Ex): A true necromancer, by delving into the realms of both arcane and divine magic, is able to unleash a large amount of power when he casts from his chosen school. A true necromancer uses his full character level when determining his caster level for any necromancy spell, arcane or divine. He also uses his full character level to determine the total HD of undead he can control, unless his caster level for the animate dead spell would be higher than his full character level. A true necromancer may substitute his holy symbol for all somatic components when casting necromancy spells. As long as he does this, he suffers no arcane spell failure for casting a necromancy spell. Finally, a true necromancer may sacrifice a prepared necromancy spell slot as he casts a different necromancy spell. If he does so, he ignores the material components for that spell.

    All a True Necromancer's Necromancy spells are considered to be on BOTH his class spell lists, at whatever level is the lowest level the spell is available.

    When a True Necromancer casts a Necromancy spell, it is considered to be 1 level higher for the purposes of calculating save DCs and all other effects dependent on spell level. This does not affect spell preperation or meta-magic effects. (A Widened level 4 spell occupies a level 5 spot as usual, but also calculates its save DC and other effects as if it were a 5th level spell)

    Death Research (Ex): A true necromancer understands life and death on a much higher level than any normal wizard or cleric. The true necromancer receives a competence bonus to all Heal and Knowledge (Religion) checks he makes equal to his class level.

    Innate Necromancy (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a true necromancer may choose 2 necromancy spells he is able to cast. One must originally be from the wizard spell list, and one from the divine spell list he is able to cast animate dead from. The true necromancer is able to spontaneously convert any spell he has prepared into one of these two spells, as long as the spell he converted was the same level or higher. At 3rd level, and every level after that, the true necromancer selects 2 more spells to spontaneously cast.

    Unholy Presence (Su): A true necromancer radiates evil. The very ground he walks on gives off a faint glow of decay. Starting at 2nd level, the true necromancer constantly projects a desecrate spell, centered on him. This is a supernatural ability, and may be suppressed or resumed as a free action.

    Mighty Decay (Ex): A true necromancer's spells do not just call the undead to serve him. They also weaken and cripple his foes, reducing their bodies and minds to that of a dried up, incompetent corpse. Beginning at 3rd level, any necromancy spell a true necromancer casts that deals damage to a creature's ability score deals additional damage to that ability score(s) equal to his class level, to a maximum of +5 additional damage. If the spell in question allows a saving throw to halve or negate the damage (such as the poison spell), this extra damage is halved or negated on a successful save as well.

    Empower Death (Su): When a true necromancer of 4th level or higher bolsters undead, he can grant them additional bonuses by consuming an arcane or divine prepared spell.

    If he consumes an arcane spell slot, the undead he bolsters receive a +X bonus to their attack rolls and a +2X bonus to their damage rolls, where X is equal to the level of the arcane spell slot sacrificed. These bonuses last for one minute.

    If he consumes a divine spell slot, the undead receives Fast Healing X, DR 2*X/Magic and Good, and a +X deflection bonus to AC, where X is equal to the level of the spell slot sacrificed. These bonuses last for one minute.

    A true necromancer may only sacrifice one spell slot per bolstering. This ability does not stack with itself.

    Undead Resistances (Ex): As a true necromancer advances through life, his research allows him to make certain adjustments to his body to better reflect the almost perfect defense he admires in his creations. A 5th level true necromancer adds a +4 bonus to his saving throws against all effects that a creature with the undead type is immune to. This does not include the undead type's immunity to effects that require a Fortitude save which does not also affect objects.

    At 8th level, these bonuses increase to +8.

    Negative Energy Affinity (Ex): Beginning at 6th level, a true necromancer is healed by negative energy and harmed by positive energy.

    Master of Undeath (Ex): At 7th level, a true necromancer is truly a general of his own personal undead army. The true necromancer chooses one ability score from among his primary casting ability scores. Once chosen, he may not change his mind. The amount of undead the true necromancer is able to control with his animate dead spell increases to 4+chosen ability score modifier per character level. For example, a wizard 3/cleric 5/true necromancer 7 with 25 Intelligence would be able to control 165 HD of undead instead of 30 HD.

    Life Drain (Ex): Whenever a 9th or higher level true necromancer casts a necromancy spell that deals negative energy damage or inflicts negative levels onto a creature that is harmed by negative energy damage, the true necromancer receives a number of temporary hit points equal to half the total negative energy damage dealt, or 5 temporary hit points per negative level bestowed. These temporary hit points fade in 24 hours.

    Soul Bind (Sp): A 10th level true necromancer may not have as much power as a full cleric or a full wizard, but he can still use the pinnacle of necromantic magics to seal his foes away and never let them go. Once per day, the true necromancer may cast soul bind, as the spell, as a spell-like ability, with a caster level equal to his character level. The DC for the spell is 19+one of his primary casting ability score modifiers, chosen when he gains this ability and he cannot change it afterward. The true necromancer must still have the Focus required for the spell.

    Craft Wondrous Item (Ex): An 11th level true necromancer gains the Craft Wondrous Item feat as a bonus feat. He will use this feat to create the philactery for his transformation. A true necromancer with this class feature can craft a lich's philactery with only 1/10 the required gp cost, and no XP cost.

    Ritual of Unspeakable Evil (Su): At 12th level, the true necromancer's power is realized and he finally attempts the evil ritual and transforms his body into that of a powerful undead spellcaster. The true necromancer gains the lich template and all of its associated penalties and benefits (along with the undead type and the augmented subtype and all of their associated penalties and benefits), but does not take the +4 Level Adjustment. The true necromancer loses his Constitution score and all of his hit dice change to d12s. He must reroll all of his hit points.

    The true necromancer's lich form is so evil and destructive that it can actually severe the bonds between a deity and that deity's sacred altars. Whenever the true necromancer is within 100 feet of an altar, shrine, or other permanent fixture of a deity, pantheon, or higher power other than his patron, that area is cursed and cut off from all divine connections for as long as the true necromancer is within 100 feet of it.
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2012-04-03 at 10:11 AM.

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    Default Re: The True Necromancer (A Seraphi Homebrew Fix) 3.5 PrC, PEACH

    mighty decay needs to be TN level... and is a bit deadly as is. Chill touch for 1+level strength damage? every round? as a first level spell?

    also, mother cyst is a fine feat... but it seems a bit off for the TN flavor. perhaps the option to make your familiar a Skeletal Minion that uses the TN's character level for power? or corpse crafter/feat gained from corpse crafter?

    definatly needs bonus corpse crafter feats, and the desecrate to move up to a temple desicrate. could see tossing some of the necromancy boosts for more minion mancy...
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    Default Re: The True Necromancer (A Seraphi Homebrew Fix) 3.5 PrC, PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
    mighty decay needs to be TN level... and is a bit deadly as is. Chill touch for 1+level strength damage? every round? as a first level spell?
    It's already TN level. "Extra damage equal to class level, maximum +10".

    also, mother cyst is a fine feat... but it seems a bit off for the TN flavor. perhaps the option to make your familiar a Skeletal Minion that uses the TN's character level for power? or corpse crafter/feat gained from corpse crafter?
    I'm trying to fit the theme of a "true" necromancer, instead of narrowly focusing on the undead creation aspect, which only encompasses a few spells. Necromancy is so much more than that, and it gets ignored, sadly. A true necromancer isn't all about his zombie horde, he cares about control of life and death as well.

    definatly needs bonus corpse crafter feats, and the desecrate to move up to a temple desicrate. could see tossing some of the necromancy boosts for more minion mancy...
    I've never heard of "Temple Desecrate". And again, minionmancy is only a small portion of the necromancy school. If you wanted to take Corpse Crafter, you would have done so from level one, no point in me handing those feats out now.

    Edit: You're referring to the secondary benefit of the desecrate spell? Sure, I put it in as part of the capstone.
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2012-04-01 at 11:33 PM.

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    Default Re: The True Necromancer (A Seraphi Homebrew Fix) 3.5 PrC, PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    Spellcasting: Able to cast at least one arcane necromancy spell of at least 2nd level, able to cast animate dead as a divine spell
    Wait a moment. Something looks a bit weird here. Animate dead is a 3rd level divine spell (meaning 5 levels of a divine class) and getting a 2nd level arcane spell means 3 levels of an arcane class. Unless you have one of the few DMs that would let precocious apprentice qualify you for this class, you need 8 levels before you can enter. As such, you can't complete this 14-level PrC before reaching epic levels. Was this intentional?

    If this wasn't intentional and this class was intended for a 3/3/14 build (which I kind of suspect), I'm not sure how I feel about the full casting. Allowing for a theurgic spellcaster with double 9s is already incredibly powerful (note that the mystic theurge can't do this) even if the arcane class has 3 restricted schools. Creating a class that gives this incredible capability while also giving powerful abilities like undead leadership, larger undead hordes, and lichdom seems a bit over the top. I'd personally recommend removing spellcasting progression from level 1.

    Also, undead domination seems really, really odd. Consider for a moment that the character may have chosen enchantment as one of his or her 3 prohibited schools, has fewer spell slots for arcane mind-affecting effects thanks to Focused Specialist, and that divine magic doesn't have too many useful mind-affecting effects unless that character chooses the right (necromancy-unrelated) domains. It might be better to create an ability that conscripts undead into the control of the necromancer as if he or she had created them (counting them towards his or her limit).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Realms of Chaos View Post
    Wait a moment. Something looks a bit weird here. Animate dead is a 3rd level divine spell (meaning 5 levels of a divine class) and getting a 2nd level arcane spell means 3 levels of an arcane class. Unless you have one of the few DMs that would let precocious apprentice qualify you for this class, you need 8 levels before you can enter. As such, you can't complete this 14-level PrC before reaching epic levels. Was this intentional?
    Hmm...Right. I guess I'll change it to arcane 1/divine 5/theurge 14.

    If this wasn't intentional and this class was intended for a 3/3/14 build (which I kind of suspect), I'm not sure how I feel about the full casting. Allowing for a theurgic spellcaster with double 9s is already incredibly powerful (note that the mystic theurge can't do this) even if the arcane class has 3 restricted schools. Creating a class that gives this incredible capability while also giving powerful abilities like undead leadership, larger undead hordes, and lichdom seems a bit over the top. I'd personally recommend removing spellcasting progression from level 1.
    Okay. That way, (coupled with what I changed above), the arcane class would only get 7th level spells, and the divine class wouldn't get 9ths until 19th level.

    Also, undead domination seems really, really odd. Consider for a moment that the character may have chosen enchantment as one of his or her 3 prohibited schools, has fewer spell slots for arcane mind-affecting effects thanks to Focused Specialist, and that divine magic doesn't have too many useful mind-affecting effects unless that character chooses the right (necromancy-unrelated) domains. It might be better to create an ability that conscripts undead into the control of the necromancer as if he or she had created them (counting them towards his or her limit).
    Necromancers can already do this with the command undead ability.

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    Default Re: The True Necromancer (A Seraphi Homebrew Fix) 3.5 PrC, PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    Unholy Presence (Su): A true necromancer radiates evil. The very ground he walks on gives off a faint glow of decay. Starting at 2nd level, the true necromancer constantly projects a desecrate spell, centered on him. This is a supernatural ability, and may be suppressed or resumed as a free action.
    I'm sorry but "glow" is completly the wrong word to use here. Decay does not glow, it pratically repels light. I know this is such a minor innocous detail but its bugging me so I had to post. Unfortunatly, I can't think of an alternative which I now suspect was your dilemma.

    Being more helpful, I love this class and had to do a double take to see that it was actually 14 levels. The skill pre-req prevents early entry cheese too which is nice. My only advise is to allow an interpretation to use Dread Necro instead of Focused Necromancer, as Dread Necro is arguably more focused than a Focused Necromancer. In a similar vein, you should provide a note that you can take True Necro into epic levels as by RAW you can't, since its not a 10 level PrC.
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    Default Re: The True Necromancer (A Seraphi Homebrew Fix) 3.5 PrC, PEACH

    the secound level of benafit, that of having a alter to a death god at the desecrates epicenter... otherwise known as the wagon with a alter on it that a good necromancer brings along for field animations.

    equal to class level sound like all class levels, but I guess it is the normal phrase... and +10 is still a lot. welcome to contigen one shot wensday, were we hand out 1d4-8 +10 damage to any stat! dragon getting you down? try shakes 1d8+10 dexterity damage! that giant being a pain? try cackle fevor 1d6+10 wisdom damage! that wizard tick you off? try red ache for 1d6+10 strength damage! yay for one shot wensday!

    and now every true necromancer has a painful cyst? It just feels wrong, forcing a funky flavor choice on them.

    and that would be if WotC wasn't a doche that made conjuration(healing)... you have sprinkles of inflict, a tiny bit of debuff, a dash of SoD, but mostly its all animation...


    including corpse crafter itself, there are like 7 corpse crafter feats. thats every feat from 1-20. handing out 1-2 lets a necromancer have other feat options...
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    Default Re: The True Necromancer (A Seraphi Homebrew Fix) 3.5 PrC, PEACH

    Being more helpful, I love this class and had to do a double take to see that it was actually 14 levels. The skill pre-req prevents early entry cheese too which is nice. My only advise is to allow an interpretation to use Dread Necro instead of Focused Necromancer, as Dread Necro is arguably more focused than a Focused Necromancer. In a similar vein, you should provide a note that you can take True Necro into epic levels as by RAW you can't, since its not a 10 level PrC.
    I don't like spontaneous casters for the fluff of this class. I see a frail old wizard pouring over his books while praying to his deity for advice. Someone who is naturally able to spread his decay over the world just doesn't seem like he's putting in enough effort.

    I'm sorry but "glow" is completly the wrong word to use here. Decay does not glow, it pratically repels light. I know this is such a minor innocous detail but its bugging me so I had to post. Unfortunatly, I can't think of an alternative which I now suspect was your dilemma.
    Indeed. No idea how I should do this.

    Anyway, changed the class to 12 levels, and changed the entry point to 9th (wizard 3/cleric 5). How does it look now?

    equal to class level sound like all class levels, but I guess it is the normal phrase... and +10 is still a lot. welcome to contigen one shot wensday, were we hand out 1d4-8 +10 damage to any stat! dragon getting you down? try shakes 1d8+10 dexterity damage! that giant being a pain? try cackle fevor 1d6+10 wisdom damage! that wizard tick you off? try red ache for 1d6+10 strength damage! yay for one shot wensday!
    This is intentional. As I said, there are far more spells that deal ability damage than raise dead in the necromancy school. For example, off the top of my head, I can think of chill touch, lesser shivering touch, shivering touch, blood snow, memory rot, infestation of maggots, poison, mind poison, and dehydrate for necromancy ability damage off the top of my head (I'm sure there are plenty more).

    Meanwhile necro-raising has animate dead, create undead, and create greater undead. So I don't see your argument that necro is all minionmancy. It's not.
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2012-04-01 at 11:50 PM.

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    Default Re: The True Necromancer (A Seraphi Homebrew Fix) 3.5 PrC, PEACH

    I think it's a little weird limiting it to only focused specialists, I mean you are basically making the build for them with the prerequisites, so much so that I'd just get rid of the special line, make it more open for anyone who wants to get into it.

    Other things, I'd say give it half BAB, necromancers don't seem the type to hit stuff, even with ranged touch attacks. You do still run into the problem of being 1-2 spell levels behind on your classes, but I guess that is inevitable in theurges.
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    Default Re: The True Necromancer (A Seraphi Homebrew Fix) 3.5 PrC, PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by Dumbledore lives View Post
    I think it's a little weird limiting it to only focused specialists, I mean you are basically making the build for them with the prerequisites, so much so that I'd just get rid of the special line, make it more open for anyone who wants to get into it.
    Alright. Guess I'll just change it to necromancer.

    Other things, I'd say give it half BAB, necromancers don't seem the type to hit stuff, even with ranged touch attacks. You do still run into the problem of being 1-2 spell levels behind on your classes, but I guess that is inevitable in theurges.
    The necromancy school is full of rays and touch attacks. Ray of sickness, ray of exhaustion, ray of enfeeblement, escalating enfeeblement, mother cyst, vampiric touch, ray of entropy, poison, inflict light wounds, inflict moderate wounds, inflict serious wounds, inflict critical wounds, harm, bestow curse, greater bestow curse, mind poison, shivering touch, chill touch, lesser shivering touch, etc. The necromancy school has more rays and touch spells than any other school, period.

    The class has a wizard's saves, a cleric's BAB, and a hit dice that is between the two. So I think it ends up working pretty well.

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    Default Re: The True Necromancer (A Seraphi Homebrew Fix) 3.5 PrC, PEACH

    Ok so at 20th level he'll have 13th level(7th level spells) arcane casting and 15th level(8th level) divine casting? Then at 21st level he receives the Lich Template?

    Seems reasonably balanced. I can see why someone would want to take this class.

    I love this class a lot actually, just one thing that would be cool. What if he could choose different undead forms to turn into at the last level instead of just a lich? I mean vampires are awesome too.
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    Default Re: The True Necromancer (A Seraphi Homebrew Fix) 3.5 PrC, PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by Wavelab View Post
    Ok so at 20th level he'll have 13th level(7th level spells) arcane casting and 15th level(8th level) divine casting? Then at 21st level he receives the Lich Template?

    Seems reasonably balanced. I can see why someone would want to take this class.

    I love this class a lot actually, just one thing that would be cool. What if he could choose different undead forms to turn into at the last level instead of just a lich? I mean vampires are awesome too.
    A) The SRD vampire is not awesome, as I think we can both agree.

    B) Liches are undead spellcasters. That's just how it works. *shrugs*

    Anyway, you miscounted. The progression goes Wizard 3/Cleric 5/TN 12, which ends up with lichdom at 20, not 21.

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    Default Re: The True Necromancer (A Seraphi Homebrew Fix) 3.5 PrC, PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    A) The SRD vampire is not awesome, as I think we can both agree.

    B) Liches are undead spellcasters. That's just how it works. *shrugs*

    Anyway, you miscounted. The progression goes Wizard 3/Cleric 5/TN 12, which ends up with lichdom at 20, not 21.
    A) Agreed. I like your vampire by the way.

    B) Awww... But true, lich tend to be the most common ones.

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    Default Re: The True Necromancer (A Seraphi Homebrew Fix) 3.5 PrC, PEACH

    I only have one real complaint (Mighty Decay is severely overpowered, but that's something you should already know...there are to many spells and feats that it's just to good when combo'd with), but it's a pretty big one.

    Balance (Mighty Decay) aside is good, flavor is fairly consistent (Mother Cyst strikes me as something that should be removed), but...well...

    I was bored reading this. I'd be bored looking over it when playing a character. I wouldn't take this PrC as anything but a purely mechanically optimal way to create a necromancer. It just isn't *interesting*.

    There are no cool abilities to sink my teeth into, nothing that really defines me as a character. I feel like the class falls flat.

    ...is this just me? Or does anyone else find it a bit to flatly mechanical, with not enough actual Prestige?

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    Default Re: The True Necromancer (A Seraphi Homebrew Fix) 3.5 PrC, PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    I don't like spontaneous casters for the fluff of this class. I see a frail old wizard pouring over his books while praying to his deity for advice. Someone who is naturally able to spread his decay over the world just doesn't seem like he's putting in enough effort.

    Anyway, changed the class to 12 levels, and changed the entry point to 9th (wizard 3/cleric 5). How does it look now?
    I see why you want a Wizard. Though I'm not sure why you changed the entry level and class length. I wasn't complianing about the entrance level nor the length just that its impossible to carry into epic by RAW. I was quite happy with the class length and the entrance level to be honest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    I was bored reading this. I'd be bored looking over it when playing a character. I wouldn't take this PrC as anything but a purely mechanically optimal way to create a necromancer. It just isn't *interesting*.

    There are no cool abilities to sink my teeth into, nothing that really defines me as a character. I feel like the class falls flat.

    ...is this just me? Or does anyone else find it a bit to flatly mechanical, with not enough actual Prestige?
    I understand where you're coming from but I think you're applying the wrong perspective. I suspect what's giving you that reaction is the feeling that a prestige class should be a class that enables a specialized or unusual build rather than a straight power upgrade, and I agree with that.

    The thing to understand here is that "hybrid divine/arcane necromancer" is already a specialized and unusual build, and one that's non-viable without a prestige class to support it. The nature of the build required to get in already makes it something unusual, so all the class really has to do is bring it up to a level of functionality that matches up to a straight-classed cleric-necro or wizard-necro.

    That said, it would be nice to see some of the features build up a synergy between the two classes - substituting a holy symbol for arcane somatic components is neat, but I feel like there's more that could be done with blending the two forms of magic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Benly View Post
    That said, it would be nice to see some of the features build up a synergy between the two classes - substituting a holy symbol for arcane somatic components is neat, but I feel like there's more that could be done with blending the two forms of magic.
    ...What, you mean like a geomancer? But that's the geomancer's shtick. I mean, I had this class synergize the casting by combining the wizard levels with the cleric levels for the purpose of rebuking undead, and also having the two classes stack with each other for your caster level with necromancy spells. I dunno how else I could make this class synergize more.

    I only have one real complaint (Mighty Decay is severely overpowered, but that's something you should already know...there are to many spells and feats that it's just to good when combo'd with), but it's a pretty big one.
    Alright, I'll cap Mighty Decay at +5 then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Benly View Post
    The thing to understand here is that "hybrid divine/arcane necromancer" is already a specialized and unusual build, and one that's non-viable without a prestige class to support it. The nature of the build required to get in already makes it something unusual, so all the class really has to do is bring it up to a level of functionality that matches up to a straight-classed cleric-necro or wizard-necro.

    That said, it would be nice to see some of the features build up a synergy between the two classes - substituting a holy symbol for arcane somatic components is neat, but I feel like there's more that could be done with blending the two forms of magic.
    Oh, I'm well aware of that. It's more the fact that if something is JUST a functionality boost, you could make it a feat (for example: require 2nd level Arcane spells and 3rd level Divine spells, and then add half of one caster level to the other, for example). That feat isn't really considered, but a feat could be a really simple fix for shaky mechanics.

    As such, I expect a PrC to blend the two better. That's my issue: this is a mechanical patch for a broken two-caster problem, but it doesn't feel like an interesting and seamless blend of the two styles of Necromancer. That's what I'd expect a True Necromancer to be.

    If we CAN'T have the blend of the two, it's FAR easier to make a class which simply adds all Necromancy spells (or a select Necromancy spell list) to the character's spell list over the course of 10 levels, with an ability or two thrown in for flavor. Maybe take a few things away from them on entry as a sort of punishment for these extra spells. That way, our True Necromancer gets the spells (and maybe we add Turning to the class) without needing to be a hybrid.

    In short, if being a hybrid doesn't actually make you BETTER and make both parts of your build function TOGETHER, maybe it should be cut in favor of a different approach.


    Alright, I'll cap Mighty Decay at +5 then.
    I'd also limit this to a maximum of one application per spell, as there is a Fell Magic feat that can apply stat damage, and this would multiply that considerably for multi-target spells.
    Last edited by Djinn_in_Tonic; 2012-04-02 at 09:10 AM.

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    Default Re: The True Necromancer (A Seraphi Homebrew Fix) 3.5 PrC, PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by Benly View Post
    I understand where you're coming from but I think you're applying the wrong perspective. I suspect what's giving you that reaction is the feeling that a prestige class should be a class that enables a specialized or unusual build rather than a straight power upgrade, and I agree with that.
    I agree with this.
    The thing to understand here is that "hybrid divine/arcane necromancer" is already a specialized and unusual build, and one that's non-viable without a prestige class to support it. The nature of the build required to get in already makes it something unusual, so all the class really has to do is bring it up to a level of functionality that matches up to a straight-classed cleric-necro or wizard-necro.
    The way this class is built, a straight cleric or wizard is a better necromancer they way this class inhibits spellcasting.
    That said, it would be nice to see some of the features build up a synergy between the two classes - substituting a holy symbol for arcane somatic components is neat, but I feel like there's more that could be done with blending the two forms of magic.
    [/QUOTE] Perhaps allowing spell slots to be sacrificed to pay for spell components, as far as I can remember, necromancy is expensive when it comes to spell components.
    Quote Originally Posted by MesiDoomstalker View Post
    I see why you want a Wizard. Though I'm not sure why you changed the entry level and class length. I wasn't complianing about the entrance level nor the length just that its impossible to carry into epic by RAW. I was quite happy with the class length and the entrance level to be honest.
    The entrance level is too late, in my opinion a prestige class should be able to be started and finished before epic, this does it, but it gives up too much to do it, this can't do the very best necromancy at high levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    I only have one real complaint (Mighty Decay is severely overpowered, but that's something you should already know...there are to many spells and feats that it's just to good when combo'd with), but it's a pretty big one.
    I can't see it being that bad, ability score damages are crippling already, adding a few points rarely makes a difference.
    Balance (Mighty Decay) aside is good, flavor is fairly consistent (Mother Cyst strikes me as something that should be removed), but...well...
    Mother Cyst seems to be thrown in as an afterthought to add more necromancy.
    I was bored reading this. I'd be bored looking over it when playing a character. I wouldn't take this PrC as anything but a purely mechanically optimal way to create a necromancer. It just isn't *interesting*.
    It adds a lot of passive abilities, but then, adding active ones would either have to be powerful or be redundant with all the spells a character with this class would have.
    There are no cool abilities to sink my teeth into, nothing that really defines me as a character. I feel like the class falls flat.
    Most prestige classes are, this needs something to make it really stand out as the ruler of death, life and what's inbetween.
    ...is this just me? Or does anyone else find it a bit to flatly mechanical, with not enough actual Prestige?
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    Default Re: The True Necromancer (A Seraphi Homebrew Fix) 3.5 PrC, PEACH

    Could use some DC boosts, that is the main way it kills oponents...
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    Default Re: The True Necromancer (A Seraphi Homebrew Fix) 3.5 PrC, PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzardevil View Post
    I can't see it being that bad, ability score damages are crippling already, adding a few points rarely makes a difference.
    Eh...previously this was adding up to 10 points of damage. The difference between 4 points of damage and 14 points, for example, is a -5 modifier, or a 25% shift in failure chances assuming a d20 roll. It's also a LOT more likely to instantly drop someone if it targets a low score of theirs.

    That's HUGE. Even the current -5 is an extremely painful addition.

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    Default Re: The True Necromancer (A Seraphi Homebrew Fix) 3.5 PrC, PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzardevil View Post
    The way this class is built, a straight cleric or wizard is a better necromancer they way this class inhibits spellcasting.
    That is true of any theurge build. The point of a theurge is to have a lot more spells and a lot more options, not to have more power than a straight caster.


    The entrance level is too late, in my opinion a prestige class should be able to be started and finished before epic, this does it, but it gives up too much to do it, this can't do the very best necromancy at high levels.
    Again, theurge. Theurges don't get double 9s. If you want to do that, you should stick with a straight wizard or straight cleric.

    I can't see it being that bad, ability score damages are crippling already, adding a few points rarely makes a difference.Mother Cyst seems to be thrown in as an afterthought to add more necromancy.It adds a lot of passive abilities, but then, adding active ones would either have to be powerful or be redundant with all the spells a character with this class would have.Most prestige classes are, this needs something to make it really stand out as the ruler of death, life and what's inbetween.
    As above/
    Okay, so what would you suggest? As you stated, it's difficult to add active abilities to a spellcasting class while maintaining balance. I've already given the class a free boost to undead created and near you (permanent desecrate), a large boost to the number of undead you can control (Master of Undeath), a boost to negative energy spells (Life Drain), a boost to ability damage spells (Mighty Decay), and a boost to your caster level and rebuking. And you become a lich. So...I don't see how else I could make this stand out as a ruler of death.

    Perhaps allowing spell slots to be sacrificed to pay for spell components, as far as I can remember, necromancy is expensive when it comes to spell components.
    Sure, I can add that in.

    As such, I expect a PrC to blend the two better. That's my issue: this is a mechanical patch for a broken two-caster problem, but it doesn't feel like an interesting and seamless blend of the two styles of Necromancer. That's what I'd expect a True Necromancer to be.

    If we CAN'T have the blend of the two, it's FAR easier to make a class which simply adds all Necromancy spells (or a select Necromancy spell list) to the character's spell list over the course of 10 levels, with an ability or two thrown in for flavor. Maybe take a few things away from them on entry as a sort of punishment for these extra spells. That way, our True Necromancer gets the spells (and maybe we add Turning to the class) without needing to be a hybrid.
    Alright, I'm listening. So how can I blend these together better? And as for your suggestion about a completely different class, this is a thread about fixing the true necromancer from Libris Mortis. The true necromancer from Libris Mortis is a cleric/wizard necromancy theurge class. Moving away from that defeats the purpose.
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2012-04-02 at 09:22 AM.

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    Default Re: The True Necromancer (A Seraphi Homebrew Fix) 3.5 PrC, PEACH

    Some thoughts...


    True Necromancy: All a True Necromancer's Necromancy spells are considered to be on BOTH his class spell lists, at whatever level is the lowest level the spell is available.

    When a True Necromancer casts a Necromancy spell, it is considered to be 1 level higher for the purposes of calculating save DCs and all other effects dependent on spell level. This does not affect spell preperation or meta-magic effects. (A Widened level 4 spell occupies a level 5 spot as usual, but also calculates its save DC and other effects as if it were a 5th level spell)


    We now get some serious interplay here, but only for Necromancy spells. We also make up for our weaker spells by having comparable save DCs and comparable ways to bypass Globes of Invulnerability and the like.


    Innate Necromancy: At each level, choose 1 (or 2) Necromancy spells you know. You may spontaneously trade any prepared spell for a Necromancy spell on this list.

    With the above ability, we can now actively shuffle around our spells of both lists to get spells we like.


    Cooperative Magicks: When a target makes a saving throw against an Arcane spell of yours, it suffers a -2 penalty to any Divine spell you use before the end of your next turn. When a target makes a saving throw against a Divine spell of yours, it suffers a -2 penalty to any Arcane spell you use before the end of your next turn.

    This one is important. We now have a REASON to mix-and-match spells. This ability also doesn't need to be this simple...perhaps this could cause minor stat damage instead of a save penalty, or stack levels of fear, or any other effect you can think of. The point is that now both halves of the hybrid are useful and needed. It's also actually an active ability, although passively active: it forces you to think about what you're doing and make choices.


    Maybe you can spend Arcane spells to give your Undead minions extra damage and attack bonuses (+attack equal to your class level, +damage equal to x2 spell level or something...now they're deadly), and spend Divine spells to heal all of them by something like spell level x .5 class level. Alternatively, the effects are set by your class level, and the effect lasts for 2xSpell Level in rounds (which would grant defenses, Fast Healing, or DR/- instead of healing for Divine spells). Make this a Swift action, so it doesn't consume casting time, but make the benefit enough that it might be worth a spell.

    Give the class special bonuses to undead raised by Divine magic, and undead raised by Arcane magic...make both feel like good options, but make it a choice. Maybe Arcane undead are more powerful, while Divine undead are more durable, and even have rudimentary intelligence.

    Just thoughts. I'll let you know if I have more.

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    Default Re: The True Necromancer (A Seraphi Homebrew Fix) 3.5 PrC, PEACH

    Hmmmm, I like this. Only a couple of things I could think of:

    -Both the Rebuke Undead and the True Necromancy abilities say that a True Necromancer uses his full character level when determining something. While I understand that it is expected that a True Necromancer should be Wiz/Clr/TrueNecro only, you can't discount the possibility that someone can have some other class and still qualify for this. A Fighter1/ClrX/WizY/TrueNecro1 would, therefore, Rebuke Undead as well as a ClrX+1/WizY/TrueNecro1 (though I don't know why anyone would take a fighter level in this build ) The point is, it should say something like "a True Necromancer uses any Cleric and Wizard levels, as well as his True Necromancer levels, when determining something".

    -This is just a suggestion, but you could also add "have both the Death or the Undeath domains as selected cleric domains" as a prerequisite.
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    Default Re: The True Necromancer (A Seraphi Homebrew Fix) 3.5 PrC, PEACH

    There's a Fell Magic feat that deals stat damage
    I believe you're referring to the Fell Weaken feat. This feat inflicts a penalty to Strength, not Strength damage, so it's not subject to Mighty Decay. There is no metamagic feat that inflicts ability damage, that would be laughably overpowered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    Some thoughts...

    True Necromancy: All a True Necromancer's Necromancy spells are considered to be on BOTH his class spell lists, at whatever level is the lowest level the spell is available.


    That seems...incredibly unfair. Arcane magic is known for its incredible ability to screw with metamagic costs, while divine magic is known to completely remove metamagic costs entirely.

    Example: Arcane Thesis (Enervation). Now all my metamagic spells that I apply to enervation are at -2 to apply. Then I can Divine Metamagic enervation, since I'm casting it from my divine spell slots, and suddenly Maximize only costs 2 turn attempts instead of 4. Quicken only costs 3 turn attempts, Split Ray only costs 2, etc.

    The language there is a little shaky, so I'm not sure if that's how it would work, but if that's a possible result of this class feature, I wouldn't put it in.

    When a True Necromancer casts a Necromancy spell, it is considered to be 1 level higher for the purposes of calculating save DCs and all other effects dependent on spell level. This does not affect spell preperation or meta-magic effects. (A Widened level 4 spell occupies a level 5 spot as usual, but also calculates its save DC and other effects as if it were a 5th level spell)

    We now get some serious interplay here, but only for Necromancy spells. We also make up for our weaker spells by having comparable save DCs and comparable ways to bypass Globes of Invulnerability and the like.
    Sounds good. Adding in, thanks.

    Innate Necromancy: At each level, choose 1 (or 2) Necromancy spells you know. You may spontaneously trade any prepared spell for a Necromancy spell on this list.

    With the above ability, we can now actively shuffle around our spells of both lists to get spells we like.
    Fair enough. Adding in, thanks.

    Cooperative Magicks: When a target makes a saving throw against an Arcane spell of yours, it suffers a -2 penalty to any Divine spell you use before the end of your next turn. When a target makes a saving throw against a Divine spell of yours, it suffers a -2 penalty to any Arcane spell you use before the end of your next turn.

    This one is important. We now have a REASON to mix-and-match spells. This ability also doesn't need to be this simple...perhaps this could cause minor stat damage instead of a save penalty, or stack levels of fear, or any other effect you can think of. The point is that now both halves of the hybrid are useful and needed. It's also actually an active ability, although passively active: it forces you to think about what you're doing and make choices.
    The problem here is that the best necromancy spells don't offer a saving throw (rays). In fact, the large majority of arcane necromancy doesn't offer a saving throw at all (Divine has inflict spells).

    The other problem here is that combining this with "All spells are on both spell lists" results in you dropping an arcane harm, then a divine harm, then an arcane harm, etc.

    Maybe you can spend Arcane spells to give your Undead minions extra damage and attack bonuses (+attack equal to your class level, +damage equal to x2 spell level or something...now they're deadly), and spend Divine spells to heal all of them by something like spell level x .5 class level. Alternatively, the effects are set by your class level, and the effect lasts for 2xSpell Level in rounds (which would grant defenses, Fast Healing, or DR/- instead of healing for Divine spells). Make this a Swift action, so it doesn't consume casting time, but make the benefit enough that it might be worth a spell.
    Seems like a good idea, except for the action economy abuse. I'll put it in, as a standard action.

    Give the class special bonuses to undead raised by Divine magic, and undead raised by Arcane magic...make both feel like good options, but make it a choice. Maybe Arcane undead are more powerful, while Divine undead are more durable, and even have rudimentary intelligence.
    Hmm...now we're getting into too many class features. I think I'm going to have to drop this one.

    Just thoughts. I'll let you know if I have more.
    I appreciate it.

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    Default Re: The True Necromancer (A Seraphi Homebrew Fix) 3.5 PrC, PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by Larkas View Post
    Hmmmm, I like this. Only a couple of things I could think of:

    -Both the Rebuke Undead and the True Necromancy abilities say that a True Necromancer uses his full character level when determining something. While I understand that it is expected that a True Necromancer should be Wiz/Clr/TrueNecro only, you can't discount the possibility that someone can have some other class and still qualify for this. A Fighter1/ClrX/WizY/TrueNecro1 would, therefore, Rebuke Undead as well as a ClrX+1/WizY/TrueNecro1 (though I don't know why anyone would take a fighter level in this build ) The point is, it should say something like "a True Necromancer uses any Cleric and Wizard levels, as well as his True Necromancer levels, when determining something".
    Nah. I don't really care about that. After all, there are possibilities of wiz/clr/mystic theurge/true necro entries. Limiting it to Wiz+Clr would be too restrictive.

    The true necromancer is already missing 8th and 9th level arcane spells, as well as 9th level divine spells. If the true necro wants to limit his power even more by dipping other classes, he can keep his high rebuking and high caster level.

    -This is just a suggestion, but you could also add "have both the Death or the Undeath domains as selected cleric domains" as a prerequisite.
    Nah, that was a problem with the true necromancer to begin with. No one wanted to waste one of their cleric domains on Death. Death is awful, because you don't get any new spells from it (all the spells are already on the cleric spell list). Necro clerics prefer the Deathbound Domain from the Spell Compendium.

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    Why do you have to be a Wizard? Seems needlessly limited to me...
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    Default Re: The True Necromancer (A Seraphi Homebrew Fix) 3.5 PrC, PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    Nah, that was a problem with the true necromancer to begin with. No one wanted to waste one of their cleric domains on Death. Death is awful, because you don't get any new spells from it (all the spells are already on the cleric spell list). Necro clerics prefer the Deathbound Domain from the Spell Compendium.
    Hmmm, the point was mainly adding a domain as a prerequisite, whatever that domain might be, but nevermind that.
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    Default Re: The True Necromancer (A Seraphi Homebrew Fix) 3.5 PrC, PEACH

    Finally, a true necromancer may sacrifice a prepared necromancy spell slot as he casts a different necromancy spell. If he does so, he ignores the material components for that spell.
    This seems a bit too powerful, since I can take then a spell that is of very high level with an expensive component and sacrifice a level 1 or level 0 slot to avoid it. That's pretty abusable.
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    Default Re: The True Necromancer (A Seraphi Homebrew Fix) 3.5 PrC, PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Lord View Post
    Why do you have to be a Wizard? Seems needlessly limited to me...
    Pointed it out above, the whole idea of a character who actually studies necromancy, you know?

    You couldn't play a spontaneous arcane caster and finish the class anyway, unless you used Earth/Heighten shenanigans, since that would delay entry to 10th level.

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