Low Charisma and highly communicative player

[Jon_Dahl]

I have a big problem in my games.

The player who does most of the talking created a character with a very low Charisma and abysmal communicative skills.

However the PC still does a lot of talking. And I mean a lot. Of course when there's something related to Charisma-based skills, I make him roll and he fails 99% of the time, but most of the time no rolls are needed. He talks and everyone listens. And actually he makes sense and has great ideas.

But I feel that I'm letting Charisma to be a dump stat if you can still be a great leader and spokesman with any given Charisma-value, as long you avoid rolling dice.

What do you think? How would you handle this?

[Totally Guy]

Is the behaviour itself the big problem or is there another problem that is happening because of that behaviour?

[Comet]

Maybe let him suggest things for the more charismatic characters to say? Not optimal and requires a certain tolerance for metagaming and cooperation between the players but I think it could work well enough.

[Geddoe]

He's mentally quick on his feet. So each time his character wants to attempt to persuade them, have him roll first then attempt to roleplay his speech based on his roll.

Most of the time, due to failure on his roll, it will be attempting to roleplay putting his foot in his mouth. Which can be funny and allows somebody who is playing the face to pick up the slack.

[Mastikator]

If you want to offset it, tell the other players that the low cha character gives them bad vibes. And all NPCs automatically dislike him. Some people just don't get along well, the low cha high talkative sensible character is like that with everyone.

Or tell him to tone it down and get into character.

[Badgerish]

Is this actually a problem? Are they bragging about gaming the system or hedging out other (more charismatic/trained) characters that want to talk?

1) consider the DCs. You say that he usually fails when you force a roll; When you are not forcing a roll, that usually means that the DC was too small to fail.
Think about the no-roll tasks that the low-cha character is succeeding on, really, what DC would you put on them? Would the character fail on a 1-2?

You don't NEED 14 Cha and training in diplomacy to convince someone of a reasonable truth. You don't need training in bluff when people are jumping to their own conclusions. You don't need training in intimidate when the target is alone, unarmed and already wounded.

2) encourage the player to change/grow their character into a more social one.

3) encourage roll first - RP the result

4) encourage the party to work together in social situations (both IC and OOC)


(I'm little defensive about this subject as I usually play low-cha characters and still end up doing a lot of the talking.
Why? because no one else wants to talk!)

[sonofzeal]

I LARP, and at LARP metagaming is much easier. You can see people moving around out-of-game all the time. There's no real-world invisibility, so often you as a player are aware that a bunch of dudes dressed up like goblins with "out-of-game" headbands were walking up ahead of you, or even that there's one standing very close.

Thing is... at our LARP, you get more respect (and often more rewards) if you exaggerate your character's unawareness. Many of the best players will deliberately lower their guard if they see something metagame that tips them off. These sorts of willful sacrifices impress people, because they show you care more about maintaining immersion than about winning. It can be tough deliberately walking into an ambush you shouldn't be aware of but are, but that's the sort of thing that helps keep the suspension of disbelief alive for others.

So, reward roleplay, especially when it's detrimental to the characters. Low-cha characters could be arrogant or socially awkward, depending on personality type. Figure out with players what that low cha actually means for their characters, and let the players make that call, and then reward them when they play that up.

Don't penalize poor roleplay, that way lies madness. But reward the good.

[NikitaDarkstar]

I just have to ask is his characters INT score decent or even good? If so I don't see much of an issue. He talks, he makes a lot of sense, but he doesn't have enough force of personality to make NPC's care.

As someone else suggested, have him suggest things for the other players to say or do OOC.

Maybe he's the socially awkward type that has great ideas but will suggest them to people he knows (the other characters) and have them do the important talking.

Ask the player if he wants to reroll his character into something that fits his play style better, since he's obviously having problems with the current one. Don't make it offensive, just ask if he's really, honestly having fun with what he has on his sheet now, and if not ask him if he wants to remake his character.

But in the end, yes you might want to both change how the npc's react to him, and talk to the player and tell him that he might want to tone it down a bit since he mechanically has a low-charisma character but he's playing it like a high charisma one, he doesn't need to stop talking, but he needs to stop playing it like all the talking will and should work.

[Mike_G]

I would let it go.

It's great when players actually roleplay the interaction, instead of saying "I bluff the guard," <rolls dice> "Beat a 32."

Good ideas should be rewarded.

If he's a good roleplayer, have him work out a reason for his low Cha, and roleplay that aspect. Low Cha could be that his manner is too arrogant, or off-putting, or he might just be as exciting as cardboard. He has great ideas, but just isn't inspiring.

[chaosgirl]

What do you think? How would you handle this?

The character has good ideas, and expresses them well, but he still gives off "Bad Vibes". People think hes lying to them. They dismiss what he says even if they ARE good ideas (happens all the time IRL). He makes social Faux pas that result in people only talking to other members of the party...

[Dimers]

I use a combination of Comet's suggestion and Geddoe's. Any interaction starts with a skill roll. Then the player of the speaking character figures out, sometimes with help from the other players, how to roleplay that success or failure. Charismatic players help charismatic characters, and the whole group gets to come up with funny or dramatic reasons for bad rolls. The most fun is a roll that just barely succeeds or just barely fails, because then the dialogue comes alive the most, with complications that help and hinder the aim of the skill check. (Although, yes, critical failures are fun too. )

The benefits of this include:
* There's a reason for the mechanics to exist and be used. Charisma isn't a dump stat. Just like in real life, characters with good social skills have a meaningful edge. Uncharismatic people can play charismatic characters. It's fair to everyone (at least, everyone who makes their character knowing this is the way it'll work).
* The group is more involved. Even if a single character is speaking for everyone, even if they're off by themselves, the whole group can play by offering suggestions. Players have more incentive to listen and less to surf the net and play games on their phones. They get to know each others' characters better. They're MORE more involved once they figure out that Aid Another (or the non-D&D equivalent) is valuable and introduces more 'angles' into the conversation.
* Realism, roleplay and fun are all supported. Realism is the whole point, except where Rule Of Funny overrides it, and it's all expressed through roleplay. Each player who wants more than rolling dice to overcome challenges should have a good time with this.
* Over a long enough period, players might actually glean useful information and become better speakers IRL by hearing examples of what works and what doesn't. I know I have -- I can express myself better and get people to react more the way I want than I could five or ten years ago, and I've felt that kind of insight settle in during RPG sessions.

[denthor]

The in game character could be missing teeth, have broken nose allergies. What is his intelligent stat? Be of a mistrusted race 1/2 orc? Low Charisma can take many form annoying voice or tone.

Be rude when the player character meets resistance he walks away rather than state his point.

You have an intelligent player take him aside and say I want you to roleplay your stats. When he starts talking tell him to pick up his character sheet and say which stat are using now. Wisdom and intelligenes can be used brief consice statement.

Give him 25 words or less to make his point at that point cut him off and get on with the game if he objects tell you can not take all of our time.

[TheDarkSaint]

A low Charisma could also be a low force of personality. People may just not take him seriously, thinking he's cute, too young, too old or just not well enough respected.

NPC's might listen to the low Cha guy, smile, then over at the high Cha guy and say "What do you think?"

They might steal his great ideas for their own if they don't respect him. Charisma is about having a commanding presence, having people willing to trust and follow you.

You might also incorporate his chatty behavior in to the Cha stat. Maybe NPC's think he talks too much. People can come across as insecure, which is a social turn off, by talking too much (he may not seem so at the table, but his character may come across like that)

[Stegyre]

A low Charisma could also be a low force of personality. People may just not take him seriously, thinking he's cute, too young, too old or just not well enough respected.

Yes. Let me just add:

Cassandra -- the woman with the gift of prophecy but the curse that no one would believe her.

I would expect most NPCs would tend to ignore a talkative, low charisma PC. Surely, he cannot be saying anything worthwhile.

[Mr.Moron]

Make so he's easily misinterpreted, or that people assume the worst about him.

For example, if he suggests some NPCs create a distraction for a tactically sound reasons perhaps they suggest he is only trying to get them killed to make things easier for him.

Basically just pick any reason (even if it's slightly stupid) that someone might not find his position agreeable and have them stick to it like a donkey covered cold molasses.

[awa]

personally my favorite way of doing it is to assume that what ever comes out of the players mouth is paraphrasing what comes out of the characters mouth.
the player stutter's says umm a lot and meanders around the point. well if hes got 20 cha it came out as an eloquent speech.

player gives a beautiful romantic poem. if hes got a 4 cha he grabs his crotch and gives her a leer and a wink.

you wouldn't let a pc auto hit becuase he described his swing well you shouldn't let him win social encounters just with out of game skill. if he wanted to play a social character he should have played a social character, letting himavoid rolls just devalues any one who actually put points and skills their.

[KillianHawkeye]

I'd have the NPCs do this:

They dismiss what he says even if they ARE good ideas (happens all the time IRL).

People will blatantly disregard a good idea for no other reason than they don't like the person who said it.

Or else do this:

They might steal his great ideas for their own if they don't respect him. Charisma is about having a commanding presence, having people willing to trust and follow you.

Have them pull the whole "Don't be a fool, that will never work! Wait, I just got a brilliant idea. We should do <player's idea>."

you wouldn't let a pc auto hit becuase he described his swing well you shouldn't let him win social encounters just with out of game skill. if he wanted to play a social character he should have played a social character, letting himavoid rolls just devalues any one who actually put points and skills their.

^ This is a great point.

[Anteros]

Erm...as long as everyone is having fun...just let it go. If it's bothering another player that actually optimized for diplomacy or something, maybe talk to him then. The point of the game is to have fun after all. He's probably not going to have much fun if you tell him he can't talk.

[Mewtarthio]

Eloquent speaking doesn't always make people listen to you. You don't need to hijack his character and declare that he's babbling; you can just have everyone ignore him. Picture that scene in The Two Towers when Pippin gives a speech at the Entmeet: He doesn't stutter or screw up his grammar or accidentally offend the Ents, but he still doesn't change anyone's mind.

[inexorabletruth]

People with bad Charisma can have good ideas. Just as people with bad charisma can be Chatty Cathy's. The trick is to remind him to RP this appropriately.

I played a character once with low WIS and CHA, but I didn't want to play a surly beatstick, because I like getting in there and doing some RP. So what did I do? I gave him a terrible sense of humor. His character didn't have the good sense to tell when he was telling a "you had to be there" kind of anecdote until he'd already prattled on for several seconds about it. Think Ellis from Left 4 Dead 2. He told these awful cheeseball jokes too, and was actually quite beloved by the other players. Unfortunately, he as also very badly built and died a heroic death when he ended up being the first on the scene (Monk with Quick trait) in a battle on treacherous terrain, so no one else could come to his aid in time. The rest of the players missed him so much that they held a funeral for him with a pyre and everything!

Here's some fun ways to play low CHA characters that I've tried. Maybe this will help him out some:
Low CHA, plus high INT = Why won't anyone listen to me? (The guy who always seems to have the right ideas, but no one is listening because he's either too aggressive or too beta.)
Low CHA, plus high WIS = Tell me what's on your mind. (The caring listener.)
Low CHA, plus low INT = Hulk SMASH (the party loving brute)
Low CHA, plus low WIS = Hey guys, listen to this. You're gonna love this. This one time... (the Ellis.)

[Autolykos]

I'll second that Charisma doesn't determine what you say (or even how you say it), it determines how people react to it.
If his Charisma is low, people will ignore him, misunderstand him, react emotionally to rational arguments (or vice versa), be pissed at him for pointing out something obvious (or obviously wrong, depending on what they think of the matter), steal the credit for his ideas, etc. Since most nerds seem to have Charisma as a dump stat, they should probably know enough examples...
With high Charisma, they will interpret anything he says in a more favorable way, and listen to and think about his suggestions. Even if his ideas are completely retarded, they will carefully try to "fix" them as well as they can while still referring to them as his idea.

If the player really is that good at it, making him fight an uphill battle can't hurt as long as you keep it somewhat fair.

EDIT: An extreme example of Charisma making the actual content irrelevant would be: "Don't argue with idiots. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."
I've seen it more than once that someone uses a completely moronic argument in a discussion, leaving his opponent too flabbergasted to point out how wrong it is (or at least doing it in an easily understandable and polite way) and making the idiot look like the "winner" to the (less informed) audience. Happens quite a lot in political debates, but providing specific examples would probably violate board rules.

[brantaylor105]

First and foremost, you need to sit down with the player and discuss how his low Cha stat takes form in the game world.

Is he bad-looking, annoying voice, too young to take seriously, too old, etc. There is a huge host of reasons someone may have a low Cha stat. However, if the stat is low, there needs to be some sort of in-game justification for it.

Now personally, I hate skill rolls and I do my best to ignore them unless absolutely necessary. I feel as though they take away from the role-play aspect and add to the roll-play. So, instead of forcing him into very difficult to achieve rolls, force him into very difficult to achieve roles. So he may have a fantastic idea or a compelling argument, but he also HAS to have some justifiable reason for such a low Cha stat, so he has to overcome that in roleplay.

Think of it in real life. If a hobo walked up to you on the street and said the world was ending, you would ignore him. However, a politician could make the same argument and would be more easy to believe. Same as if it was a child or the elderly. As far as specifics, there are already some great examples in this thread, so I wont delve too much into that.

I guess my main point here is that he HAS to have some reason that his character has such low Cha, so you need to talk with the player and figure out what that is, then just let him try to overcome it via roleplay. I hope this helps.

[RandomNPC]

I'm just going to echo what a lot of people said, and put my own twist on it.

Reward good ideas by lowering the DC by 1-5 points, but still make him roll those CHA based checks first. Basically make him roll, and if he misses by only a point or two, let him talk you into it with good ideas in his role-play.

Make NPCs disrespect him, or even have a few haughty nobles tell him to leave the area, and how dare he bother them. If slavery of some sort (even just poorly treated hired servitude) have some of them assume the party keeps him around as an extra set of hands and nothing more.

Let him know it's gotten to the point where you notice the difference, and talk to him about it.

[Delwugor]

Him: "I have an idea. This will work. Or we could try. And another idea. I got just the answer".
Others: "YACK, yack, yack", "there he goes again, wish he'd shut up", "hmmm wonder what the dinner special at the inn is tonight."

Him: "I have a great idea. Do X Y Z".
Everyone does "Y Z X".
Him: "No no, X Y Z".
Everyone: "Oh sorry" does Z X Y

[randomhero00]

CHA doesn't mean highly communicative...it means highly persuasive.

.....a total idiot could blather on all day with a CHA of 4.

[Averis Vol]

i'm actually playing a really low charisma (7) zen archer in a pathfinder game. i talk a lot...like a lot but if i'm not insulting you i'm generally making an ass of myself talking about stuff i don't know or just being a general dunce. that being said my wisdom is ridiculous so i perceive things most of the rest of the group doesn't. but due to my low charisma i don't say anything and let them figure it out on their own.

[Andreaz]

Is this actually a problem? Are they bragging about gaming the system or hedging out other (more charismatic/trained) characters that want to talk?

In a way yes, it is a problem. If the system handles it, and the group uses that bit of the system, then it's unfair to let one player bypass it because he's better than his sheet at it.
While this will be mostly with social stuff, it's just not fair to allow the character to "sneak" in points into his sheet via bypassing a low stat.

And that fairness is one I feel is worth preserving.

So either pass his ideas to the more social characters or have them fail anyway. His character doesn't have such a glibness. He'll stutter, or he'll pass the wrong vibe and send mixed signals, or people just won't like him. Those things tend to matter more than making sense in a debate anyway.

[Sutremaine]

While this will be mostly with social stuff

Yeah, there's not so much of a problem with physically-gifted players getting bonuses when their characters are doing something physical.

[Andreaz]

Yeah, there's not so much of a problem with physically-gifted players getting bonuses when their characters are doing something physical.

I'm not sure I get what you mean there, but yes, a physically built player stunting his way into playing STR 16 while his character is STR 9 is just as big a problem.

[Sutremaine]

Just as great a problem, or just as common a problem? I meant that Charisma is the stat most commonly allowed to be overwritten by a player's own ability.