Turn Undead (sort of.)

[Vinyadan]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html

I never got what Redcloak meant with "sort of". Is he using a variant of the turn undead, like the ones given with elemental domains? Could it be bestowed by the Cloak to its bearer?


Ok, thank you all! My knowledge of rules is normally bad and the cleric class is the one I know the least, so it is not strange that I mistook everything.
In the beginning I even thought that Redcloak was actually doing something different than he had told Jirix.

Collection of explanations:

1. The undead are only "sort of" undead, as they are homebrewed to be sort of deathless
2. The turn undead is only "sort of" turning, because it actually is a rebuking.
3. Redcloak is careful of what he says or does, so he specifies. He probably has an opinion of himself as very precise and feels the need to lecture (sort of ) people who create confusion -->

[zimmerwald1915]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html

I never got what Redcloak meant with "sort of". Is he using a variant of the turn undead, like the ones given with elemental domains? Could it be bestowed by the Cloak to its bearer?

He's using Rebuke Undead to "turn" the undead-but-not-really Ghost Martyrs. This is explained quite well, I think, in the ninth panel. Incidentally, in that same panel, the misplacement of the hobgoblin cleric's two toes makes him look quite goofy.

[Vinyadan]

He's using Rebuke Undead to "turn" the undead-but-not-really Ghost Martyrs. This is explained quite well, I think, in the ninth panel. Incidentally, in that same panel, the misplacement of the hobgoblin cleric's two toes makes him look quite goofy.

But why is Redcloak the only one to say "sort off"? Why doesn't Jirix say it, too?

[SaintRidley]

But why is Redcloak the only one to say "sort off"? Why doesn't Jirix say it, too?

Because the "sort of" is not required and Recloak's just being a bit of a grump about it.

[Steward]

I think you're reading too much into that phrase. It's not part of the incantation or anything.

[Eisenfavl]

The ghost-martyrs are presumably deathless, basically undead but positive energy. Their description says that turn undead attempts work like rebuke, and rebukes work like turn. As such, redcloak being the truly lawful wrote-it-in-ink-so-need-to-do-it goblin that he is, would be likely to point out that it isn't specifically turn undead, but is similar to that action.

[Chess Tyrant]

Basically, it's because he's not technically casting Turn Undead, but it has the same effect on the positive-energy spirits that Turning would have on negative-energy ghosts.

[phantomreader42]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html

I never got what Redcloak meant with "sort of". Is he using a variant of the turn undead, like the ones given with elemental domains? Could it be bestowed by the Cloak to its bearer?

"sort of" is because he's using Rebuke Undead (standard for evil clerics) to sort of "turn" enemies that are only sort of undead.

[NerfTW]

But why is Redcloak the only one to say "sort off"? Why doesn't Jirix say it, too?

It's a joke. Not part of the spell. Because those aren't undead.

[Vinyadan]

Ok, thank you all! My knowledge of rules is normally bad and the cleric class is the one I know the least, so it is not strange that I mistook everything.
In the beginning I even thought that Redcloak was actually doing something different than he had told Jirix.

Collection of explanations:

1. The undead are only "sort of" undead, as they are homebrewed to be sort of deathless
2. The turn undead is only "sort of" turning, because it actually is a rebuking.
3. Redcloak is careful of what he says or does, so he specifies. He probably has an opinion of himself as very precise and feels the need to lecture (sort of ) people who create confusion -->

[oball]

I doubt the other cleric is Jirix, by the way, since he gets his head kicked off by Miko two strips later.

[B. Dandelion]

I doubt the other cleric is Jirix, by the way, since he gets his head kicked off by Miko two strips later.

When the Giant discusses Jirix in Don't Split the Party, he adds that he's the same cleric who fought with Redcloak against the ghost-martyrs, raised from the dead and given a position of authority.

[Excise]

When the Giant discusses Jirix in Don't Split the Party, he adds that he's the same cleric who fought with Redcloak against the ghost-martyrs, raised from the dead and given a position of authority.

So that's twice now Jirix has been raised from the dead?

[Steward]

Pretty much. Three more times and he gets a free resurrection..

[Fenice]

You know, there is something odd in this page that I noticed some time ago.

Redcloak's rebuke undead ability destroyed the lesser Ghost Martyrs. That's what happens with deathless creature by the rules (if the cleric is powerful enough).
However, Soon was stunned (or something like that). Why? Shouldn't he be turned (i.e. running away in fear)?

That's what happens with the deathless. And even if Ghost Martyrs aren't really deathless but some sort of homebrew, that's still what should happen if the reasoning "rebuke undead has the opposite effect" applies.

[The Giant]

Redcloak's rebuke undead ability destroyed the lesser Ghost Martyrs. That's what happens with deathless creature by the rules (if the cleric is powerful enough).
However, Soon was stunned (or something like that). Why? Shouldn't he be turned (i.e. running away in fear)?

That's what happens with the deathless. And even if Ghost Martyrs aren't really deathless but some sort of homebrew, that's still what should happen if the reasoning "rebuke undead has the opposite effect" applies.

I fudged the rules to preserve Soon's dramatic impact. Having the personification of determined duty even after death run away, even as the result of a magical effect, would have completely undercut the character's emotional weight.

If you want a rules explanation, just say that the paladin's immunity to fear still persists as a ghost-martyr.

[phantomreader42]

If you want a rules explanation, just say that the paladin's immunity to fear still persists as a ghost-martyr.

Exactly what I was going to say! Ninja'd by The Giant!

Also, Soon is epic, much higher level than Redcloak, so there's no way he'd be able to destroy him outright.

[Fenice]

Yeah, I thought that might have been the reason. You're right, I can't even imagine Soon running away in fear.
Thank you for the clarification.

By the way, Redcloak must have some monstrous Charisma to be able turn stun an epic paladin.
(Are we even sure the entire Order of the Scribble is epic?)

[Unisus]

I got cought by the title of the thread and even though it's a bit off topic, i just wanted to ask about something what may be just a non native speaker problem:

While i see that "turn undead" is meant to banish undead, i sometimes somehow think of the meaning "become undead". I know that this is not how this ability works, but is there actually anything in the wording that would exclude this meaning?

[Kish]

There is nothing in the phrase "Turn Undead" that couldn't mean "become undead." There is a joke on that subject in Start of Darkness.

Of course, the ability description is unambiguous.

[St Fan]

I got cought by the title of the thread and even though it's a bit off topic, i just wanted to ask about something what may be just a non native speaker problem:

While i see that "turn undead" is meant to banish undead, i sometimes somehow think of the meaning "become undead". I know that this is not how this ability works, but is there actually anything in the wording that would exclude this meaning?

"Turn Undead" is an old colloquial saying, older than the D&D game which has just integrated it in its rules.

The origin is not entirely clear, but here's what the relevant page of TV Tropes is saying about it, if you forgive me for citing this Website:

The idea may have come from one of two possible sources, both connected with vampirism. One is the movie trope of a religious person repelling a vampire by using a cross. The other is an old superstition actually practiced in the medieval on bodies suspected of being vampires. Apparently, one of the ways to stop such a corpse from rising was to literally turn it, burying it face-down to make it "bite the dust and not people".

[Vinyadan]

I got cought by the title of the thread and even though it's a bit off topic, i just wanted to ask about something what may be just a non native speaker problem:

While i see that "turn undead" is meant to banish undead, i sometimes somehow think of the meaning "become undead". I know that this is not how this ability works, but is there actually anything in the wording that would exclude this meaning?

I am not a native speaker, too, and I think that your interpreting is correct by grammar, but denied by the situation: the "turn undead" is normally used on creatures which already are undead, so that they cannot turn undead. The wording however can have that meaning, too (I think. A mother-tongue speaker would come in handy).

[Steward]

If it makes it easier to understand, think of the priest saying, "Undead, turn around and go away!" (That's more or less what it means in this context).

[Unisus]

Thanks for the replies. I did not have a problem with the "turn undead" as banishing, it was just that in some cases, both meanings could make sense, so i wondered, if there was actually something in the wording that would make a difference.

[MReav]

I fudged the rules to preserve Soon's dramatic impact. Having the personification of determined duty even after death run away, even as the result of a magical effect, would have completely undercut the character's emotional weight.

If you want a rules explanation, just say that the paladin's immunity to fear still persists as a ghost-martyr.

Huh. I always it was the loss of his paladin buddies that caused him to go like that. That he was drawing on their strength and with their sudden loss Soon got disoriented (presumably he botched his save, which is why the later ones didn't cause him to be like that). But interesting explanation, because I thought Soon would be too tough to turn (epic or really high level character, ghosts typically have turn resistance, I'd assume the place would be Hallowed). I guess Redcloak nailed his turn check.

[KillianHawkeye]

I got cought by the title of the thread and even though it's a bit off topic, i just wanted to ask about something what may be just a non native speaker problem:

While i see that "turn undead" is meant to banish undead, i sometimes somehow think of the meaning "become undead". I know that this is not how this ability works, but is there actually anything in the wording that would exclude this meaning?

Yeah, I remember when I was a kid and got my first look at the old AD&D 2nd Edition Player's Handbook and thinking "But why would I want to turn undead?"

Even for a native English speaker, the meaning isn't obvious.