Need a level for a spell

[Phosphate]

Volatile Interference
Abjuration
Level: Sor/Wiz ?
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: 1 creature or object within range
Effect: Blue aura appears around the target, then becomes invisible
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: none
Spell Resistance: Yes

You apply a special layer of chaotic arcane energy to a nearby target, which will melt down when itself or other effects are removed. If, while Volatile Interference is in effect, the target has Dispel Magic, Remove Curse, or Break Enchantment cast on it, or enters an Anti-Magic Field, it will receive 1d6 untyped damage per caster level (uncapped), and Volatile Interference will end if it hadn't already.

This spell doesn't stack with itself and cannot be removed by the initial caster. Furthermore, the caster cannot use Dispel Magic, Remove Curse, or Break Enchantment on the target.



Basically a neat way to dispatch enemies that have buffers around to help them. So, what shall it be?

[Yitzi]

What happens if the original caster casts Dispel Magic on the target?

I'd say probably level 6. It's untyped and allows no save or SR, which is pretty good, and is uncapped, but on the other hand it is single-target and requires other effects to do damage (i.e. debuffs to force a dispel or an actual dispel done by your party.)

[Glimbur]

I'm confused. You go in to combat, cast this spell on the target, then have your spellcasting friend dispel it off of them? This seems needlessly complicated, and it only has some synergy with dispelling people you were going to dispel anyway. But it costs an action to set up for CLd6 damage. On that basis, I'm going to suggest level 2. This does make it kind of useless until you get Dispel Magic, but so be it.

What happens if I cast Volatile Interference on that dragon, then cast Dispel Magic on the dragon? The spell description states that it cannot be removed by the initial caster, but also that when it does damage it ends.

On the other hand, it's a no-save no-sr no attack roll damage spell. If you can target something (creature or object), you can damage it. I'm foreseeing this spell being Chained, and/or used to kill golems, people immune to magic, and other corner cases that are normally handled via Hail of Stones. Why does this not allow SR?

[Madara]

I'll throw down 3-4. Because 1d6/level isn't as great as you'd think.

[Phosphate]

What happens if the original caster casts Dispel Magic on the target?

Absolutely nothing.

I'm confused. You go in to combat, cast this spell on the target, then have your spellcasting friend dispel it off of them?

Nope. Let me break it up for you.

1. You cast Turn to Stone on an opponent.
2. You look at what opponents you have to see if any of them have break enchantment.
3. If they do, go to 4. If they don't, go to 5.
4. Cast Volatile Interference on the target. Go to 5.
5. Get rid of the rest of the enemies. If the opponent turned to stone is freed, he will pay a hefty price in hit points.

This seems needlessly complicated, and it only has some synergy with dispelling people you were going to dispel anyway. But it costs an action to set up for CLd6 damage. On that basis, I'm going to suggest level 2. This does make it kind of useless until you get Dispel Magic, but so be it.

Considering that this is a spell best used in an anti-mage build (or rather anti-cleric), of course it is useless until mid levels.

What happens if I cast Volatile Interference on that dragon, then cast Dispel Magic on the dragon? The spell description states that it cannot be removed by the initial caster, but also that when it does damage it ends.

Exactly. Since you can't remove it, it doesn't end. Since it doesn't end, you don't deal damage.

Why does this not allow SR?

It doesn't allow SR because it doesn't affect the target. The target is affected by Dispel Magic, Remove Curse, or Break Enchantment. Interference simply MAKES those spells deal damage.

Therefore, technically SR is a factor, because if the target rolls SR against Dispel Magic, Remove Curse, or Break Enchantment, and succeeds, Interference does not end and damage is not dealt.

[Glimbur]

Dispel Magic and Break Enchantment don't allow SR.

Break Enchantment also takes a minute to cast. Someone casting that in combat is either suffering from hubris or ignorance.

Have you looked at Reciprocal Gyre in Spell Compendium? It more directly punishes people for having a number of buffs on them, which was your stated purpose of the spell in the first post. Later conversation suggests that this spell is intended as more of a trap to discourage dispelling of debuffs, which makes it distinct from Reciprocal Gyre.

[Phosphate]

Well....I define buffers both as people who give buffs and dispel debuffs.

The way I intended this to work is: you cast save or sucks on opponents, and make sure they are punished if they removed them. If they don't remove them, it doesn't matter if they are punished or not, because debuffs are overpowered anyway.

Gyre has kind of the opposite purpose of my spell. But of course someone can use them both to really screw the enemies :D.

[bloodtide]

This spell does not make sense to me.

Ok, you wait for a chance to find a target that might have a dispel or other spell cast on them. Then you cast the spell. Then when and if the spell is cast on them they will take 1d6 damage/level? It does not look that useful.

On the spell itself, it's way unbalanced. The spell should have a save for the initial casting. You should get a save to negate when a spell is cast on you. And the damage should be save for half too.

And the no Spell Resistance is just silly. Saying that a spell creates ''um, non-magical pure chaos energy untyped damage'' is just beyond dumb and is out right cheating. And it's the classic slippery slope. Once you say a spell can do 'non-magical magic', why not say every single spell does non-magical magic and eliminate spell resistance for everything.

[TuggyNE]

This spell should very definitely allow SR; it's layering a continuing magical energy onto a target. How much more overtly magical and prone to resistance can you reasonably get?

I'm personally unsure what level it should be; it's specialized, but still surprisingly powerful under the right conditions. However, with SR: Yes as it should be, it's probably not more than a 4th-level spell. Take that estimate with a grain of salt, however.

[Phosphate]

It does not look that useful.

surprisingly powerful under the right conditions

God, ok, I'll allow SR, but can you make up your mind whether it's useful or not already? Because I already know exactly how I'm going to use it, and where (specifically, I have a character that is a cleric slayer)

[Brennan1214]

This is just a guess, but I'd say 3rd level.

[madock345]

Maybe it's because I DM, but the minute I saw this I thought "Loot Trap!", honestly, what decent Dark Wizard wouldn't have a spell to turn his giant hoard into mush the minute some thieving party of adventurers tries to clean up thier spoils. It helps that my parties cleric has gotten into the habit of casting remove curse on loot from anything even vaguely resembling a spellcaster.

[Phosphate]

Maybe it's because I DM, but the minute I saw this I thought "Loot Trap!", honestly, what decent Dark Wizard wouldn't have a spell to turn his giant hoard into mush the minute some thieving party of adventurers tries to clean up thier spoils. It helps that my parties cleric has gotten into the habit of casting remove curse on loot from anything even vaguely resembling a spellcaster.

Interesting. Most people I play with spam Detect Magic though.

[Ashtagon]

* Cast volatile interference on enemy.
* Cast anti-magic field.
* Walk up to enemy and trigger volatile interference.

Kind of convoluted, but this is a no-save no-attack-roll way to damage creature without (enough) SR.

Incidentally, casting the spell on an object doesn't make much sense, as they don't have hit points.

[jiriku]

Objects have hit points (PH 165).

I'd go with 5, even with spell resistance included. The long duration, lack of a save, and lack of any viable method of fighting back against the effect other than counterspelling (which is hard to do and rarely attempted) or just waiting (which basically means running away and waiting a day) make the spell difficult to deal with, while the uncapped, untyped damage makes this potentially a very strong hit, especially if used as a metamagic seed. The need for an additional magical effect as a trigger is a limit, but not a very strong one since (a) creating a cost for removing a debuff is kind of the point of the spell and (b) higher-level parties (who are likely to debuff heavily or face heavily buffed opponents) are usually able to take multiple actions per character per round.

[madock345]

Interesting. Most people I play with spam Detect Magic though.

Exactly, Detect Magic only tells you the school of the spell. In this case it's Abjuration, where almost all the trap spells are. they try and remove the trap, and trigger it.

[Phosphate]

Objects have hit points (PH 165).

I'd go with 5, even with spell resistance included. The long duration, lack of a save, and lack of any viable method of fighting back against the effect other than counterspelling (which is hard to do and rarely attempted) or just waiting (which basically means running away and waiting a day) make the spell difficult to deal with, while the uncapped, untyped damage makes this potentially a very strong hit, especially if used as a metamagic seed. The need for an additional magical effect as a trigger is a limit, but not a very strong one since (a) creating a cost for removing a debuff is kind of the point of the spell and (b) higher-level parties (who are likely to debuff heavily or face heavily buffed opponents) are usually able to take multiple actions per character per round.

If I add a damage cap you think it would be lower level? Thing is, this is a spell that works best when quickened, and expending a level 9 slot is...not ideal.

Alternatively, I could make the spell level 7, and make it require a swift action anyway :D.

Exactly, Detect Magic only tells you the school of the spell. In this case it's Abjuration, where almost all the trap spells are. they try and remove the trap, and trigger it.

Fabulous!

[Analytica]

I like this for curses. Do something nasty to someone, then put this in place, so even if they do find someone strong enough to undo their work, it will be much worse if they do.

Or dominations. Your foes can kill their dominated friend, but not remove the control without the victim dying.

I see why for balance reasons you want to disallow the caster to dispel it themselves, but I have a harder time seeing why, in-universe, that won't work. Can my cohort dispel the target for me to trigger the spell? Can I use a wand of dispel to trigger it?

[Phosphate]

but I have a harder time seeing why, in-universe, that won't work

I flavor that as "a single spellcaster's own energy can't interact chaotically with itself, as it is of the same nature".

Can my cohort dispel the target for me to trigger the spell?

Yes, but you have much, much bigger issues to think about if you allow Leadership than if you allow this.

Can I use a wand of dispel to trigger it?

Still no.

[Analytica]

I flavor that as "a single spellcaster's own energy can't interact chaotically with itself, as it is of the same nature".

The thing is, in general you _can_ dispel your own spells, and it is even stated IIRC that it is easier (you automatically succees). Perhaps you could dispel this yourself, but if you did, it ends the effect without causing damage?

[ericgrau]

Couldn't an ally trigger it? I'd say level 2-3 because it's unlikely that the enemy will ever trigger it and even if you do cheese it out with an ally that takes 2 actions and a lot of coordination. Since the damage is untyped I suppose it's level 3 but even that's iffy. If you somehow prevent coordination (I wouldn't know how) then it could be level 2.

Sure you could cast this and then tag the enemy with a debuff, but most foes can be killed in 2-3 rounds anyway. And dispelling only a single debuff is usually inefficient anyway b/c it's a 50:50 shot of wasting your turn. Normally you need to go after multiple debuffs; at least 2 to simply break even. So it's an unreliable combo with minimal returns that depends on the enemy doing something that he shouldn't usually be doing anyway.

[Yitzi]

Couldn't an ally trigger it? I'd say level 2-3 because it's unlikely that the enemy will ever trigger it and even if you do cheese it out with an ally that takes 2 actions and a lot of coordination.

Untyped damage with no save or SR is pretty impressive; I'd say that 3 is too low.

[Phosphate]

Untyped damage with no save or SR is pretty impressive; I'd say that 3 is too low.

I change it so it allows SR.

Anyway, how much should I increase the level if I wanted it to be a swift action?

[Yitzi]

I change it so it allows SR.

That cuts it down substantially...I'd say now it's probably level 4 or 5 (untyped damage with no save is still pretty nice.) Allow Remove Curse to remove it safely with a successful level check, and I'd call it a solid 4.

Anyway, how much should I increase the level if I wanted it to be a swift action?

Probably by 4. Maybe 3.

[Ashtagon]

I change it so it allows SR.

Anyway, how much should I increase the level if I wanted it to be a swift action?

The general pattern in Spell Compendium is that changing casting time to a swift action and reducing duration to one round will increase spell level by one. Since there is no duration change involved here, a two-level increase from what was previously agreed as balanced (3rd?) would be justified.

[Yitzi]

The general pattern in Spell Compendium is that changing casting time to a swift action and reducing duration to one round will increase spell level by one. Since there is no duration change involved here, a two-level increase from what was previously agreed as balanced (3rd?) would be justified.

Increasing duration from 1 round to 1 hour/level is way more than 1 level's worth.

A better comparison would be to Quicken Spell, which changes casting time to a swift action and increases spell level by 4. Of course, metamagic is better in one way (you get two spells for the price of 1), and worse in other ways (it requires a feat, and it functions as a lower-level spell for things like saves and spell turning.)

[Malachei]

I think this spell gets interesting when chained.

Also, untyped damage is an issue, always, especially if uncapped and no save allowed.

[Yitzi]

Also, untyped damage is an issue, always

Not necessarily. It's strong, but I don't think Horrid Wilting is considered that unbalanced, and that's not only untyped, but multiple-target as well. (Of course, it is level 8.) I'd say remove 4 for this being only single-target, and the lack of a save is compensated for by the fact that it's a somewhat difficult setup and is close range.

[zegram 33]

might be overcomplicated but what about allowing it to be dispelled as normal if it is the only effect on the target that would be effected by dispel, but if there are othere effects on them it interacts with those effects to cause the damage?
that way it only works as a trap, not as a weapon with dispelling, the level can thus be reduced for quickening, and it can be safely dispelled (provided you know the spell and how it works).
other than that, how about making it a metamagic feat? give it say a +3(?) level adjustment and your good to go without worrying about casting time increases?

[Yitzi]

might be overcomplicated but what about allowing it to be dispelled as normal if it is the only effect on the target that would be effected by dispel, but if there are othere effects on them it interacts with those effects to cause the damage?

If there are no other effects on the target, then 2 spells for 1d6/level isn't that impressive anyway.