D&D and MtG - Planeswalker Classes

[noahbluel]

So I've had an account on is website for awhile, but I've never actually made a thread before, this is my first time. Because I'm new to this I apoligize in advance for anyway unwritten rules of thread posting I may accidentally break.

Anyway, now that I've preemptively apologized I'll get to the actual subject of the thread.

I'm working on a 3.5 campaign setting based off the Magic: The Gathering (the card game by WotC). In MtG there are beings called "Planeswalkers". In case you've never heard of Planeswalkers I'll give a short explanation of them.*

- - - - -

A Planeswalker is a powerful being born with the ability to travel between different planes of existence at will, a feat most mortal beings cannot do. Planeswalkers draw their power from one of five colors, each of which has certain traits and is associated with a certain type of terrain. Below is a list of the five different colors of magic.

Blue: associated with the mind, intelligence, water, air, weather, technology, time, memory, and artificers. Blue draws it's power from Islands.

Black: associated with death, plague, demons, necromancy, poison, undeath, shadow, blood, and self sacrifice to achieve (often selfish) goals. Black draws its power from Swamps.

Red: associated with chaos, fire, lightning, earth, rage, dragons, and getting things done quickly and fiercely. Red draws power from Mountains.

Green: associated with animals, nature, plants, elves, beasts, growth, instinct, wild, and hunting. Green draws power from Forests.

White: associated with lawfulness, order, royalty, soldiers, light, honor, angels, goodness, and the sun. White draws power from Plains.

There is also neutral magic, which can be fueled by any landmass and utilized by any color Mage. This neutral magic is often associated with the color grey.

- - - - -

Basically each of the classes would represent one of the colors. Prestige classes would be hybrids. Such as a White/Black evil overlord type or a Red/Blue arcane trickster type. The prestige classes would be tricky to design, so for this thread I want to focus only on the base classes.

Originally I envisioned having ten base classes, two for each color. Each color would have a combat/skill class, and a spell caster class. The spell aster class would be most like a wizard or sorcerer, but would feature a unique spell list for each color Planeswalker. This spell list would consist of spells that are directly related to the color identities listed above, as well as neutral, colorless spells, that would be accessible to any color Planeswalker.
The combat/skill class would represent the color more through flavor, but wouldn't cast spells.*For example, a red Planeswalker would have access to two classes, the*Barbarian (who fits red because barbarians are rage filled and chaotic), or a Sorcerer with a spell list based off fire, earth, lightning, and chaos spells (the other colors spell casters may also cast resemble sorcerers but would have a totally different spell list).

But this concept wasn't really working for me because Planewalkers are all supposed to be able to cast spells, not just half of them. I wanted to make sure that every character had access to magic.

My current idea I'm mulling over is to take non-casting classes (like the previously mentioned Barbarian), and give them access to a cleric's casting progression, but replace the cleric's spell list with a list consisting of only spells that tie, thematically, to the color they are trying to emulate.*

All of the generic spells, that didn't really fit into any of the colors, *would become "uncolored" and available to all five variety of plane walkers (things like detect magic, and spiritual weapon). Using this method we end up with five, very versatile classes. They would all be overpowered, but hopefully equally powered in comparison to each other.*

My current list of the non-casting classes to modify into Planeswalkers looks like this:*

Red - Barbarian
Green - a Druid/Ranger hybrid with no spells, but keeping the animal companion and the wild shape
White - Paladin, but without spells, but keeping the holy abilities
Blue - some sort of artificer or psionic type class ( but would manifesting and casting in the same character be to powerful)
Black - Rogue (not the best fit flavor-wise for black, but every party needs someone to handle locks and traps)

Red and Green would use there wisdom score when casting. Blue would use Intelligence. White would use Charisma. Black could draw from Intelligence or Charisma, I haven't decided yet (any suggestions would be welcome).

As you can see this entire concept is fairly rough and most parts of it could use work and opinions from people other then myself. *In particular I need help with the white, blue, and green classes, as well as making sure that the five classes are balanced.

If you have any ideas for races, or specifics of the setting, that would be great too.

Lastly, if you're into D&D and MtG and want to play this campaign then PM me. I'm in the Los Angeles/Santa Monica area and am happy to have new players or DMs.

[toapat]

Absolute most Important Question: Pre or Post Mending planeswalkers

[Steamflogger]

A few things on the colours of planeswalkers:
Red casting NEEDS to be cha based. Red is ALL about emotion, and disdaining wisdom, and charisma is your force of personality.
Red planeswalkers in combat tend to be about fire and lightning, yes, but red iteslf is, again, the colour of emotion and freedom (as opposed by the law of white and the logic of blue, Law vs chaos, Emotion vs logic). As such, red should probably have access to enchantment (Yes, even dominate spells and the like, red gets mind control in magic, it's not just blue).
Most red stuff is pretty fragile (with notable exceptions, of course), while the barbarian gets d12 hit die and damage reduction, so the chassis isn't perfect in my opinion (Except for actual barbarian planeswalkers)
Actually I guess I just wanted to talk about red.
Anyway, another thing I would do is make a number of neutral classes, (In addition to colour specific classes or exclusively) and then do something like Gnorman's archetypes he did for E6, modelling class features for different colours, and then throw the colour's spellcasting and spell list on to any class of a colour. Alternatively, you could allow your players to take any non-spellcasting/psionic class, and then just tack the spellcasting on.

*Edit*

Yeah, if it's pre-mending you might as well let everyone have access to epic spellcasting at any level with any class.

[toapat]

ok, in more seriousness:

Casting Attribute by Color:
White: Cha
Blue: Int
Black: Con
Red: Cha
Green: Wis

Base classes by Color:
White: Fighter, Monk, Cleric, Samurai, Knight, Crusader

Blue: Rogue, Wizard, Beguiler, Artificer, MageWright, Swashbuckler

Black: Wizard, Dread Necromancer, Cleric, Blackguard, Hexblade, Binder, Shadowcaster

Red: Barbarian, Sorcerer, Paladin, Artificer

Green: Ranger, Druid, <Flavor of the Week> Shaman, Totem variant Barbarian
Purple: Favored Soul

Controversial Decisions: Paladin
Paladin on a name and surface examination functions like white, but they are not, in DnD terms, a white magic class. their base Code of Conduct suppresses the use of logic for irrational, split second decisions they draw as much from charisma as they do from wisdom.
Blackgaurd: Blackgaurd doesnt function as a prestiege, it expands itself out to become a full class when you have 10 Ex-Paladin levels
FVS: honestly, i cant figure out where these dudes go

[noahbluel]

I don't know how to quote posts yet so I'll just reference your posts by your username.

In reply to Toapat's question about whether the setting is pre or post mending: My players are completely new to D&D and I don't want to overwhelm them with godly powers and eternal life so the setting is post-mending.

Steamflogger, you made some great points about red, I guess I was focusing to much on the chaotic aspect of the color and not on the in-game mechanics or the emotional aspect.

I really like your idea about the neutral classes, are those like the generic classes on the SRD? I've never heard of the Gnorman thing, but I'm very interested, could you post a link to it?

Toapat, in your second post you gave a great list of a bunch of classes that can be sorted into the five colors. A lot of them are casters though, so those wouldn't work with the concept I'm going for right now. Many of the others I hadn't thought of though, Samurai, Knight, and the totem barbarians are perfect.

Also, you mentioned the Purple color. You may have been joking, but if I was to implement that color I think it wouldn't be a player class but rather an NPC. Maybe the main villain could be a purple planeswalker, and because his/her powers were so mysterious, there would be a great aura of intrigue and oddness about the character.

WotC was considering adding purple back in the Time Spiral/Planar Chaos/Future Sight block, so it wouldn't be entirely out of the blue.

[Steamflogger]

Ah, purple, the planeswalkers that draw mana from caves.
...
I just remembered, you should probably look at this if you haven't already: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174163
It's a colour wheel alignment replacement system.

I would give each class to a colour pair at least, because as fun as it is to categorize classes narrowly, usually the players don't see it that way. Also, if you elect to use the colour alighnment system, I would suggest allowing classes from either the primary or secondary colours.

Expanding the options a bit, with some justifications and whatnot. In semi-alphabetical order

Spoiler

Show

Artificer: Red, Blue, Sometimes white (At least according to recent blocks)

Binder: Black, but the vestiges themselves come in all sorts of colours.

Crusader: White, Red (There are quite a few red knights, and the random recovery method screams red to me), Black (The Third knightly colour, and crusader has a few manoeuvres that fit black)

Cleric: Green, Black, White (Not EVERY green spellcaster is a druid)

Barbarian: Red, Green. A tough melee fighter who disdains civilization and is able to bulk up fits green as well as red.

Beguiler: Blue, Black. Black loves falsehood and deceit, and the beguiler is basically Dimir personified.

Fighter: Any, a fighter is a guy who fights. The bonus feats could be spent on becoming a master of tripping, disarming, and cunning swordplay (Blue, as well as black), Ranged combat (Green like elves), Reckless charges (Red), or anything in between (White)

Monk: White, Blue. Monks are all about reaching perfection, and reaching perfection is what blue is all about (Hence the artifice and whatnot).

Samurai: White, Black, Red: If they are a samurai, they are usually very white, or possibly black, if they are a ronin, they are probably red or black, but a white aligned ronin is possible) (Including red because the red character will need to actually be a samurai before a ronin, just like a blackguard will need to be a paladin first.)

Paladin: White (Honor, Tyranny), Red (Freedom, Honor, Slaughter), or black (Slaughter, Tyranny). White paladins exist, as long as they fight for the good of the many (or law itself) they can potentially be white.

Knight: White, Black. While a red knight is possible, they are going to have white or black as a primary or secondary colour.

Rogue: Any: While it initially seems pretty blue, the rogue (like the fighter) is an expansive class. Diplomats, assassins, bandits, tinkers, acrobats and thieves, the rogue can play many roles. The wilderness rogue variant makes it more friendly for green and red, too. White rogues may trade their sneak attacks for bonus feats, what with the obsession with soldiers and all.

Magewright: This is an npc class, I don't know if it needs to be sorted, but hedge mages of all colours are magewrights. Recalling that they are designed to be artificers (Red and Blue), and they get animate dead I think.

Dread Necromancer: This is pretty much pure black, the rare blue necromancers are artificers and wizards.

Swashbuckler: Pirates are blue, (Cunning tactics, naval superiority, technological weaponry such as cannons), and also red (Pretty chaotic and emotional) and Black (in it for themselves).

Hexblade: Yeah, again these are pretty black.

Shadowcaster: Black/blue. Some mysteries are pretty blue, some are black, I would't draw much of a distinction between the two.

Sorcerer: These guys are born with inborn power, I would say red for sure, but depending on spells chosen they could be anything.

Favoured Soul: The core cleric's spell list is largely black and white, and these guys could really be either, as well as green and red, circumstantially. There are casters of all types from all colours. Well, I guess Blue is pretty much limited to intelligence, but other then that, each colour has someone who's force of personality govern's their power (Charisma is also interpersonal skill, which white is all about, and black loves charisma because social manipulation is their thing too.)

Ranger: These guys are pretty green

Druid: The same. Even red's shamans have a hint of green (Secondary colour).

Spirit shaman: Spirits are usually white and green, so both could probably access this class.

Dragon Shaman: Dragons come in all shapes, sizes, and colours, in both magic and dnd. Any colour could be a dragon shaman, but red and green are by far the most common, followed by black, probably.

Marshal: White, Red.

Warmage: Red, all they do is blow stuff up.

Dragonfire adept: These guys are very red. Maybe something else too.

Warblade: White, Blue. These guys are smart fighters.

Swordsage: I guess these guys could be almost any color, depending on manoeuvres learned.

Obviously these are just suggestions and generalizations. You should be able to talk with your players about what they want to be, and theoretically any colour could be any class with the right level of explanation of why that character is that color. The real thing that needs to be defined is the spells, now that I think about it.

*Edit*

Just read your post above. I though that it was Noahbleul that posted that list, my mistake. By neutral classes I meant classes that could be selected by any colour. Gnorman's E6 Stuff is Here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215986

[The-Mage-King]

So, planeswalkers, you say?


This should provide some stuff for you.

[toapat]

Spoiler

Show

I don't know how to quote posts yet so I'll just reference your posts by your username.

In reply to Toapat's question about whether the setting is pre or post mending: My players are completely new to D&D and I don't want to overwhelm them with godly powers and eternal life so the setting is post-mending.

Steamflogger, you made some great points about red, I guess I was focusing to much on the chaotic aspect of the color and not on the in-game mechanics or the emotional aspect.

I really like your idea about the neutral classes, are those like the generic classes on the SRD? I've never heard of the Gnorman thing, but I'm very interested, could you post a link to it?

Toapat, in your second post you gave a great list of a bunch of classes that can be sorted into the five colors. A lot of them are casters though, so those wouldn't work with the concept I'm going for right now. Many of the others I hadn't thought of though, Samurai, Knight, and the totem barbarians are perfect.

Also, you mentioned the Purple color. You may have been joking, but if I was to implement that color I think it wouldn't be a player class but rather an NPC. Maybe the main villain could be a purple planeswalker, and because his/her powers were so mysterious, there would be a great aura of intrigue and oddness about the character.

WotC was considering adding purple back in the Time Spiral/Planar Chaos/Future Sight block, so it wouldn't be entirely out of the blue.

no, i mentioned Purple, because the Favored Soul is the only class i can name with no true color identity. we may have the black/white thing going on from the cleric spell list, but FVS is much more advised to think about what they do, do their own thing, or help, hinder people. Purple is a color that we know of, but has no Identity of it's own.

Spoiler

Show

Ah, purple, the planeswalkers that draw mana from caves.
...
I just remembered, you should probably look at this if you haven't already: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174163
It's a colour wheel alignment replacement system.

I would give each class to a colour pair at least, because as fun as it is to categorize classes narrowly, usually the players don't see it that way. Also, if you elect to use the colour alighnment system, I would suggest allowing classes from either the primary or secondary colours.

Expanding the options a bit, with some justifications and whatnot. In semi-alphabetical order

Spoiler

Show

Artificer: Red, Blue, Sometimes white (At least according to recent blocks)

Binder: Black, but the vestiges themselves come in all sorts of colours.

Crusader: White, Red (There are quite a few red knights, and the random recovery method screams red to me), Black (The Third knightly colour, and crusader has a few manoeuvres that fit black)

Cleric: Green, Black, White (Not EVERY green spellcaster is a druid)

Barbarian: Red, Green. A tough melee fighter who disdains civilization and is able to bulk up fits green as well as red.

Beguiler: Blue, Black. Black loves falsehood and deceit, and the beguiler is basically Dimir personified.

Fighter: Any, a fighter is a guy who fights. The bonus feats could be spent on becoming a master of tripping, disarming, and cunning swordplay (Blue, as well as black), Ranged combat (Green like elves), Reckless charges (Red), or anything in between (White)

Monk: White, Blue. Monks are all about reaching perfection, and reaching perfection is what blue is all about (Hence the artifice and whatnot).

Samurai: White, Black, Red: If they are a samurai, they are usually very white, or possibly black, if they are a ronin, they are probably red or black, but a white aligned ronin is possible) (Including red because the red character will need to actually be a samurai before a ronin, just like a blackguard will need to be a paladin first.)

Paladin: White (Honor, Tyranny), Red (Freedom, Honor, Slaughter), or black (Slaughter, Tyranny). White paladins exist, as long as they fight for the good of the many (or law itself) they can potentially be white.

Knight: White, Black. While a red knight is possible, they are going to have white or black as a primary or secondary colour.

Rogue: Any: While it initially seems pretty blue, the rogue (like the fighter) is an expansive class. Diplomats, assassins, bandits, tinkers, acrobats and thieves, the rogue can play many roles. The wilderness rogue variant makes it more friendly for green and red, too. White rogues may trade their sneak attacks for bonus feats, what with the obsession with soldiers and all.

Magewright: This is an npc class, I don't know if it needs to be sorted, but hedge mages of all colours are magewrights. Recalling that they are designed to be artificers (Red and Blue), and they get animate dead I think.

Dread Necromancer: This is pretty much pure black, the rare blue necromancers are artificers and wizards.

Swashbuckler: Pirates are blue, (Cunning tactics, naval superiority, technological weaponry such as cannons), and also red (Pretty chaotic and emotional) and Black (in it for themselves).

Hexblade: Yeah, again these are pretty black.

Shadowcaster: Black/blue. Some mysteries are pretty blue, some are black, I would't draw much of a distinction between the two.

Sorcerer: These guys are born with inborn power, I would say red for sure, but depending on spells chosen they could be anything.

Favoured Soul: The core cleric's spell list is largely black and white, and these guys could really be either, as well as green and red, circumstantially. There are casters of all types from all colours. Well, I guess Blue is pretty much limited to intelligence, but other then that, each colour has someone who's force of personality govern's their power (Charisma is also interpersonal skill, which white is all about, and black loves charisma because social manipulation is their thing too.)

Ranger: These guys are pretty green

Druid: The same. Even red's shamans have a hint of green (Secondary colour).

Spirit shaman: Spirits are usually white and green, so both could probably access this class.

Dragon Shaman: Dragons come in all shapes, sizes, and colours, in both magic and dnd. Any colour could be a dragon shaman, but red and green are by far the most common, followed by black, probably.

Marshal: White, Red.

Warmage: Red, all they do is blow stuff up.

Dragonfire adept: These guys are very red. Maybe something else too.

Warblade: White, Blue. These guys are smart fighters.

Swordsage: I guess these guys could be almost any color, depending on manoeuvres learned.

Obviously these are just suggestions and generalizations. You should be able to talk with your players about what they want to be, and theoretically any colour could be any class with the right level of explanation of why that character is that color. The real thing that needs to be defined is the spells, now that I think about it.

*Edit*

Just read your post above. I though that it was Noahbleul that posted that list, my mistake. By neutral classes I meant classes that could be selected by any colour. Gnorman's E6 Stuff is Here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215986

My list was focusing on base classes only, unless otherwise specified

Paladins of Honor are not white characters because their Code of Conduct suppresses Rational Thought in exchange for split second, baseless and crude decisions, which is red. i only bring up the Totem Varient Barbarian because it takes the RRRG of normal barb and makes it RGGG

Magewrights are not NPC artificers, they are the NPCs who stock Ye Olde Magica Shoppe

Knights dont get to be black, because their code of conduct disallows them to do black things. Red actually works more easily as a second color for them. the LE Knight's joy of social stratification? Thats purely white.

Fighter: i can agree with mastery of a weapon or combat style being blueish, although this is something that white is defined to already do. Bows being green also isnt enough to make a bow fighter green, as white still likes longbows. Combat maneuvers themselves are actually Red/White, so thats where you are wrong with black.

Dungeoncrasher variant Fighter is very definitively Red, considering it enjoys playing pong with it's targets

Sorcerer: Red first and formost, the spell list as far as i know covers Not White (or at least not equally justifiable as green) in terms of colors, with most spells falling into either red, blue, or black territory.