Push it to the Limit [D&D 3.5, Base Classes/Rules Supplement, In Progress]

[TravelLog]

To be clear, all except Drain would only be usable on ally's rather than yourself. And you've already said you can't purposefully harm yourself or an ally just to raise your gauge correct?

I do understand your concern however. I don't think Protect (DR or something), Shell (high magic resistance and SR), Mighty Guard (both, and perhaps granting an extra saving throw against enemy abilities for a couple rounds) are too out of line. Likewise Quicken (push an ally to the highest Initiative+1 for a while), or even Reflect (self-explanatory) at higher levels. Level 8 for reflect perhaps.

Another possibility is a Dark Knight-style Darkness limit where you sacrifice HP without boosting your gauge to deal damage to all enemies nearby based on the HP amount you sacrifice.

[Ziegander]

To be clear, all except Drain would only be usable on ally's rather than yourself. And you've already said you can't purposefully harm yourself or an ally just to raise your gauge correct?

Actually, I said that the opposite is true. If taking lethal damage adds Break Points to your gauge, then there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to stab yourself or jump out of a building in order to get some BP.

I do understand your concern however. I don't think Protect (DR or something), Shell (high magic resistance and SR), Mighty Guard (both, and perhaps granting an extra saving throw against enemy abilities for a couple rounds) are too out of line. Likewise Quicken (push an ally to the highest Initiative+1 for a while), or even Reflect (self-explanatory) at higher levels. Level 8 for reflect perhaps.

Oh, yeah, those will be fine. I already made the Barrier Limit Break at 4th level, and I like the idea of Quicken and Reflect. Not sure how I would handle Mighty Guard.

Another possibility is a Dark Knight-style Darkness limit where you sacrifice HP without boosting your gauge to deal damage to all enemies nearby based on the HP amount you sacrifice.

Well, since you have already lost HP in order to use the Limit Break, I don't think I'm going to make any that cause you to lose even more. That seems pretty cruel.

[TravelLog]

Actually, I said that the opposite is true. If taking lethal damage adds Break Points to your gauge, then there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to stab yourself or jump out of a building in order to get some BP.

I'll admit that makes me leery of abuse. Naturally it's up to you, but I'd at the least say you need to do it to yourself and not attack allies for it. Otherwise it'd be really easy for mage characters to endless spam limits as super powerful warriors deal heavy damage and a cleric-type uses Heal. Just spam Ultima 10 times, problem solved.

Anyway, other suggestions:
--Demi/Gravity series of limits reducing enemy HP by a certain percentage (probably based off user's current or Maximum to keep it from being too powerful)
--Bubble: double an ally's current/max HP for a short time
--Reverse series. Reverse things like positive-energy heal and negative-energy damage to be opposite, make a cold immune creature immune to fire instead and weak to cold, make hasted foes slowed, etc. At highest levels, perhaps even make damage heal and vis-a-versa, or reverse a creature's subtypes and such.
--Ranged abilities. Things like Potshot (touch attack, ignore miss chance), Scattershot (damage in a burst on an attack), Trigger Happy (full attack as a standard or extra attacks on a Full Attack), Table Turner (more damage to foes with DR or high AC), Mana Bullet (make it so a foe's spell slots and/or SLAs are counted as used for the day or something like that).


One last thing. I think there should be a low level version of Mug, like you currently have, that allows for stealing only mundane and non-worn items. At mid-level, an upgrade allowing for stealing magic items and worn items. At high-levels, stealing anything on the enemy's body, including wielded weapons, worn armor, stuff like that.

[Ziegander]

I'll admit that makes me leery of abuse. Naturally it's up to you, but I'd at the least say you need to do it to yourself and not attack allies for it. Otherwise it'd be really easy for mage characters to endless spam limits as super powerful warriors deal heavy damage and a cleric-type uses Heal. Just spam Ultima 10 times, problem solved.

1) You don't get BP for attacking creatures. You get BP for being dealt lethal damage (except with the Fighting Spirit feat that I will need to address).

2) If the Cleric is using his spell slots to enable Limit Breaks, those are spell slots he's not using to be a Tier-1 badass. I don't see a problem.

Demi/Gravity series of limits reducing enemy HP by a certain percentage (probably based off user's current or Maximum to keep it from being too powerful)

Got you covered with Grimtooth. I don't know how I feel about doing a higher-leveled version that reduces enemy hp by 75%.

--Bubble: double an ally's current/max HP for a short time

Almost certainly not going to happen. Unless I include a clause like, "fur the duration of the effect, that ally cannot gain BP."

--Reverse series. Reverse things like positive-energy heal and negative-energy damage to be opposite, make a cold immune creature immune to fire instead and weak to cold, make hasted foes slowed, etc. At highest levels, perhaps even make damage heal and vis-a-versa, or reverse a creature's subtypes and such.

Is this from a Final Fantasy? If yes, which one?

--Ranged abilities. Things like Potshot (touch attack, ignore miss chance), Scattershot (damage in a burst on an attack), Trigger Happy (full attack as a standard or extra attacks on a Full Attack), Table Turner (more damage to foes with DR or high AC), Mana Bullet (make it so a foe's spell slots and/or SLAs are counted as used for the day or something like that).

All fairly good ideas.

One last thing. I think there should be a low level version of Mug, like you currently have, that allows for stealing only mundane and non-worn items. At mid-level, an upgrade allowing for stealing magic items and worn items. At high-levels, stealing anything on the enemy's body, including wielded weapons, worn armor, stuff like that.

I sort of see where you're going with this (stealing "common" vs "rare" items), but it would involve me nerfing Armed Robbery to the point that it would be worthless. Right now Armed Robbery is capable of stealing all of those things. I don't think anyone would bother learning a Limit Break that allows them to steal chalk and bread out of people's pockets.

[TravelLog]

"Reverse" is a foe-only ability in FFIV, and usable by the player in FFXII. As for Armed Robbery, my issue was that it's a level one limit. Meaning at higher levels it can be spammed at low cost for lots of incredible item theft. Maybe make it all items except magic items as a first level, then magic items as well at say, 4th or 5th level Limits. Alternatively, you could allow for stealing all non-worn items at low levels, then worn items as well as part of the higher level ability.

[Ziegander]

I'm concerned about the cost of limit breaks by level scaling linearly. Both hit points and damage don't in D&D, and since the breaks are fuelled by both, and have non-linearly scaling effects, too, it seems like the costs should also be non-linear.

I'll admit that makes me leery of abuse. Naturally it's up to you, but I'd at the least say you need to do it to yourself and not attack allies for it. Otherwise it'd be really easy for mage characters to endless spam limits as super powerful warriors deal heavy damage and a cleric-type uses Heal. Just spam Ultima 10 times, problem solved.

Okay, so I'm on the verge of having possibly a different idea for the Limit Gauge and Break Point cost of Limit Breaks, but I haven't got it quite worked out yet. Basically, I'm thinking that your highest level Limit Breaks always cost the entire gauge and your lower level ones cost progressively less than that (probably in half-step increments).

The biggest difference with this, and probably why I don't like it as much, is that now the tables are turned, and the Sage (or other characters with lower hit points) uses its high-level Limit Breaks more often than the Veteran (or other characters with higher hit points). Of course, it allows the Veteran and other high hp types to spam lower level ones with impunity. Hmm...

So, if the Limit Gauge was actually equal to one-half your hit points, and your highest level Limit Breaks always cost the full gauge, while each lower level Break costs half that for each level it is lower... A 20th level Sage with 120 hit points gets to use its 10th level Limit Breaks every time it takes 60 or more damage, it's 9th levels at 30, 8th level at 15, 7th level at 7, 6th at 3, 5th at 1... No, no, this just isn't workable.

If it were a 10% cost reduction per level, then it would be 60 points for 10th, to 54 points for 9th, to 48 for 8th, to 37 for 7th, to 33 for 6th, to 30 for 5th, to 27 for 4th, to 24 for 3rd, to 21 for 2nd, to 19 for 1st. And then that runs into the odd problem of your lower level Limit Breaks costing more as you gain levels. Maybe that's not a problem though? Eh...

Can anyone think of a good way to scale cost non-linearly? Because I am a little concerned with offering quadratic power at a linear cost, but I can't come up with a good way to handle it.

[TravelLog]

I don't know if this will help at all, but one thing I thought of was rather than having it be (one point of damage--->one break point), you could do it based on percentages of maximum HP, with each break level costing 10% increments of the gauge. That way, it not only scales as you level, it also better reflects different characters, since a squishy character taking 50 damage when he only has 60 HP should fill his gauge faster than it would for a character with 150 HP.

[Ziegander]

I don't know if this will help at all, but one thing I thought of was rather than having it be (one point of damage--->one break point), you could do it based on percentages of maximum HP, with each break level costing 10% increments of the gauge. That way, it not only scales as you level, it also better reflects different characters, since a squishy character taking 50 damage when he only has 60 HP should fill his gauge faster than it would for a character with 150 HP.

The biggest problems with that approach are that a) your low level Limit Breaks begin to cost you more as you become more powerful. odd. and b) Limit Breaks of the same level cost different characters more based on how tough the characters are. Seems unfair to punish Warriors for having more hit points.

[TravelLog]

Perhaps make the gauge dependent on level rather than the character's hit points? That solves the gauge problem itself, though it doesn't resolve the issue of filling the gauge based on damage, which remains rather tricky...hmm. Still a start I suppose. What are you currently thinking?

[Ziegander]

Perhaps make the gauge dependent on level rather than the character's hit points? That solves the gauge problem itself, though it doesn't resolve the issue of filling the gauge based on damage, which remains rather tricky...hmm. Still a start I suppose. What are you currently thinking?

Currently? I'm honestly thinking I should just leave it the way it is. Maybe just do a blanket cost raise to 10 BP per Break Level. That would be sort of a bind at low-levels, but not dramatically so, and it would keep things more reasonable at high-levels, given the ease of restoring hit points then.

[Daverin]

This is looking extremely awesome. Can't wait to see what else you plan to do with it!

[unosarta]

If it were a 10% cost reduction per level, then it would be 60 points for 10th, to 54 points for 9th, to 48 for 8th, to 37 for 7th, to 33 for 6th, to 30 for 5th, to 27 for 4th, to 24 for 3rd, to 21 for 2nd, to 19 for 1st. And then that runs into the odd problem of your lower level Limit Breaks costing more as you gain levels. Maybe that's not a problem though? Eh...

One thing I was thinking was that you could just make it in solid 10% brackets... So, for instance, in the case of that 120 hit point character, their gauge is 60 points, and their highest level limit is also 60 points. As you go down, and let's just say that they are 20th level, their limits cost: 10th, 60; 9th, 54; 8th, 48; 7th, 42; 6th, 36; 5th, 30; 4th, 24; 3rd, 18; 2nd, 12; and 1st, 6. That way you are encouraged to have your lowest level maneuvers used more often than your highest level ones, which leads to more direct tactical decision making (do I blow all of my gauge points right now for a 7th level Limit Break or try to use one of my 1st level Limit Breaks and then hope they deal more damage this round so I can get a higher level Limit Break next round). I have made a system similar to this for Barbarians wherein they would fill their rage pool with a number of points equal to the amount of damage they take, and then use that to activate their Rage and other Rage abilities, and having playtested it a bit, at least at the 7th level and lower phase, you actually end up taking quite a bit of damage. Like, if you are trying, it can be surprisingly easy. And the abilities of the Barbarian weren't even trying to scale directly with level, they were based on the level you gained them and nothing more. That made your highest level rage abilities fairly difficult to use if they had an activation cost, but when you leveled up they would be easier to use. The same is true in this case, only their cost scales as well, and they are easier to use when you gain a new level of Limit Break, which are going to be more powerful than the last level anyway.

That would be the system I would recommend.

Also, I have been working on more Limit Breaks based on the Psion's Energy power line that are all based on the Energy Omen Break, and therefore all sport names like "Energy Augury", "Energy Prophecy", and "Energy Portent".

Got the Limit Breaks done. Feel free to change the hell out of them. I didn't really worry altogether that much on the balance.

Spoiler

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Energy Augury [Strike]
Level: 2nd
Cost: 10 BP
Action: Standard action
Range: Long (400ft + 40ft/Breaker Level)
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex partial

Effect: Choose one damage type from among Acid, Cold, Electric, Fire, or Sonic. This Limit Break gains the descriptor corresponding to the chosen type of damage.

You point your finger at any creature within range that you have both line of sight and line of effect to, and make a ranged touch attack. That creature takes 1d6 damage of the chosen type per two Breaker levels you possess (minimum 1d6, maximum 7d6). If you chose Sonic, the damage is reduced to 1d4 per two Breaker level. That creature also is pushed back from this damage. They are pushed back 5 feet for every 5 points of damage taken. If they make a Reflex save, they are only pushed back half of this distance.


Energy Auspice [Strike]
Level: 3rd
Cost: 15 BP
Action: Standard
Range: 120 ft.
Area: 120 ft. line
Duration: 1 round/2 Breaker levels
Saving Throw: Reflex half

Effect: Choose one damage type from among Acid, Cold, Electric, Fire, or Sonic. This Limit Break gains the descriptor corresponding to the chosen type of damage.

You create a 120 foot line that deals 1d6 damage per two Breaker levels you possess (minimum 1d6, maximum 10d6) of the chosen damage type to all creatures within the area of the effect. If you chose Sonic, the damage is reduced to 1d4 per two Breaker levels. The line remains for a number of rounds equal to your Breaker level divided by two, rounded down. Any creature that enters the area of the line takes the damage of the line for the duration.


Energy Portent [Strike]
Level: 6th
Cost: 30 BP
Action: Standard
Range: Long (400ft + 40ft/Breaker level)
Area: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous; 1 round/Breaker level (see text)
Saving Throw: Reflex partial

Effect: Choose one damage type from among Acid, Cold, Electric, Fire, or Sonic. This Limit Break gains the descriptor corresponding to the chosen type of damage.

You point at one creature within range, and they take 1d6 damage per Breaker level (minimum 1d6, maximum 15d6), and must make a Reflex save or take an effect depending on the damage type:

Acid: Blinded for the duration.
Cold: Slowed for the duration.
Electric: Frightened for the duration.
Fire: Knocked prone, and takes 1d6 damage each round for the duration.
Sonic: Deafened for the duration.


Energy Premonition [Strike]
Level: 7th
Cost: 35 BP
Action: Standard
Range: Long (400ft + 40ft/Breaker level)
Area: Varies; see text
Duration: Instantaneous or 1 round/Breaker level (see text)
Saving Throw: Reflex half

Effect:Choose one damage type from among Acid, Cold, Electric, Fire, or Sonic. This Limit Break gains the descriptor corresponding to the chosen type of damage.

You point your hand in one direction, and a wave of pure energy blasts out from your hand. All creatures within the area take 1d6 damage per Breaker level you possess (minimum 1d6, maximum 20d6) of the chosen damage type. If you chose Sonic, the damage is reduced to 1d4 per Breaker level. You may choose what shape the wave takes, and the area changes based on that shape:
Cone: A 120 foot cone, emanating from yourself.
Line A 240 foot line.
Emanation: An 80 foot spread centered on one square within range.
Blast: A 120 foot burst centered on yourself.
Wall: A 30 foot high wall, which is 40 feet long. Lasts a number of rounds equal to your Breaker level. The wall may curve up to 90 degrees in up to three different places. Any creature that is within 10 feet of the wall takes half of this effect's damage, and any creature that passes through the wall takes full damage. The reflex save only applies when the wall is first creatured.


Energy Prophecy [Strike]
Level: 9th
Cost: 45 BP
Action: Standard
Range: Personal; Long (400ft + 40ft/Breaker level) (see text)
Target: Self
Duration: 1 round/Breaker level
Saving Throw: No

Effect: You open your elemental understanding, and can manipulate the world around you to produce amazing elemental effects. For the duration of the power, you may create a bolt of energy and shoot it at an opponent within Longe range as an attack action which can be combined in a full attack. This does not require an attack action and automatically hits. Choose one damage type from among Acid, Cold, Electric, Fire, or Sonic. That bolt of damage deals 1d8 damage of the chosen type per Breaker level you possess, without maximum. If you chose sonic damage, it instead deals 1d6 damage per Breaker level you possess. You may only make and shoot up to a number of bolts equal to the Ability score that you use for your Breaking abilities’ modifier per round.

[TravelLog]

How things are going along well. Some other possibilities:
--1,000 Needles Limit (as previously suggested by another poster) dealing a set amount of damage
--A Toad-type Polymorphing limit
--A "Break" limit which turns enemies to stone
--A Chef's Knife limit break based on the Tonberry ability
--"Mother's Gift", some kind of incredible magical and physical self-buff in homage to Sephiroth, as well Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo
--On that note...One-Winged Angel? I think so.
--Some sort of powerful melee attack that knocks foes prone..."I Garland will knock you all down!"
--"Triad God Burst", an incredibly devastating multi-element magic attack in homage to Kefka.
--"Red Card" or something similar involving punishments based on Judges/Judgemasters/etc.

[Daverin]

Hey, just wanted to see if this was still happening; I'm finding this system to be amazing, and just wanted to know if everything that you wanted was accomplished or if you still needed to work on it.

[Harmonixer3500]

Speaking of Animana's Limit Warriors does anyone know where you can find it. I lost all of my files recently and desperately want to get those classes back. My group and I are doing an entire campaign around that and don't want to scrap a lvl 16 campaign if we don't have to.