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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default The Sorcerer: a PrC Retool (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    I already did the Wizard, so here's the Sorcerer:

    The Sorcerer

    Prerequisites:
    Skills: Knowledge(Arcana) 11 Ranks, Speak Language (Draconic)
    Special: Cannot have any levels in the Sorcerer base class from the Player's Handbook, nor can you take levels in it later.

    Skills: The Sorcererís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
    Skillpoints at 1st level: (2+Int Mod) x4
    Skillpoints at level up: 2+Int Mod
    Hit Die: D4

    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9

    1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Familiar|6|4|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|

    2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3||6|5|4|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|

    3rd|+1|+1|+1|+3||6|6|5|4|-|-|-|-|-|-|

    4th|+2|+1|+1|+4||6|6|6|5|4|-|-|-|-|-|

    5th|+2|+1|+1|+4||6|6|6|6|5|4|-|-|-|-|

    6th|+3|+2|+2|+5||6|6|6|6|6|5|4|-|-|-|

    7th|+3|+2|+2|+5||6|6|6|6|6|6|5|4|-|-|

    8th|+4|+2|+2|+6||6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|4|-|

    9th|+4|+3|+3|+6||6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|4|

    10th|+5|+3|+3|+7||6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|[/table]

    Spells Known:
    {table=head]Level| 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9
    1st | 5 | 3 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
    2nd | 6 | 4 | 2 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
    3rd | 7 | 5 | 3 | 2 | - | - | - | - | - | - |
    4th | 8 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | - | - | - | - | - |
    5th | 9 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | - | - | - | - |
    6th | 9 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | - | - | - |
    7th | 9 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | - | - |
    8th | 9 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | - |
    9th | 9 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2 |
    10th | 9 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 |[/table]

    Proficiencies: Sorcerers are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a Sorcererís gestures, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail.

    Spells: A Sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a Wizard or a Cleric must (see below).

    To learn or cast a spell, a Sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Sorcererís spell is 10 + the spell level + the Sorcererís Charisma modifier. A Sorcerer's caster level increases at a rate of two per level, but may never be higher than their character level.

    Like other spellcasters, a Sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on the table above. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.

    A Sorcererís selection of spells is extremely limited. A Sorcerer begins play knowing five 0-level spells and three 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new Sorcerer level, he gains new spells as indicated on the table above. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a Sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on the table above are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the Sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The Sorcerer canít use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.

    Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered Sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a Sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the Sorcerer "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spellís level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level Sorcerer spell the Sorcerer can cast. A Sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

    Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a Sorcerer need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells heíll cast.

    Familiar: A Sorcerer can obtain a familiar. Doing so takes 24 hours and uses up magical materials that cost 100 gp. A familiar is a magical beast that resembles a small animal and is unusually tough and intelligent. The creature serves as a companion and servant.

    The Sorcerer chooses the kind of familiar he gets. As the Sorcerer advances in level, his familiar also increases in power.

    If the familiar dies or is dismissed by the Sorcerer, the Sorcerer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude saving throw. Failure means he loses 200 experience points per Sorcerer level; success reduces the loss to one-half that amount. However, a Sorcererís experience point total can never go below 0 as the result of a familiarís demise or dismissal. A slain or dismissed familiar cannot be replaced for a year and day. A slain familiar can be raised from the dead just as a character can be, and it does not lose a level or a Constitution point when this happy event occurs.

    A character with more than one class that grants a familiar may have only one familiar at a time.

    Familiar stats are the same as normal, with the following change:

    • Change the levels listed on the table for familiar stats such that they gain the next set of powers each level, instead of every level (so instead of the first set being level 1st-2nd, it would be 1st, the next set would be 2nd instead of 3rd-4th, et cetera).
    • When the familiar gains spell resistance, he instead gains spell resistance equal to his master's Sorcerer level +15 instead of +5.
    Last edited by Noctis Vigil; 2012-05-09 at 10:28 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: The Sorcerer: a PrC Retool (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    God the Fighter one of these is going to be easy to do.

    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

    1st|+1|+2|+0|+0|Bonus Feat|

    2nd|+2|+3|+0|+0|Bonus Feat|

    3rd|+3|+3|+1|+1||

    4th|+4|+4|+1|+1|Bonus Feat|

    5th|+5|+4|+1|+1||

    6th|+6|+5|+2|+2|Bonus Feat|

    7th|+7|+5|+2|+2||

    8th|+8|+6|+2|+2|Bonus Feat|

    9th|+9|+6|+3|+3||

    10th|+10|+7|+3|+3|Bonus Feat|[/table]

    Or should it get a bonus feat every level?
    Last edited by Rogue Shadows; 2012-05-09 at 01:48 AM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Sorcerer: a PrC Retool (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    It'll get a feat every level (because I'm just that generous, and it's not like a feat every level is game breaking by any stretch of the imagination).

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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: The Sorcerer: a PrC Retool (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctis Vigil View Post
    It'll get a feat every level (because I'm just that generous, and it's not like a feat every level is game breaking by any stretch of the imagination).
    Depends on the feats, though personally I'd take these PrCs as a chance to fix problems with the full classes. So say something like...

    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

    1st|+1|+2|+0|+0|Bonus Feat|

    2nd|+2|+3|+0|+0|Bonus Feat|

    3rd|+3|+3|+1|+1|Dungeon Crasher|

    4th|+4|+4|+1|+1|Bonus Feat|

    5th|+5|+4|+1|+1|Something Neat|

    6th|+6|+5|+2|+2|Bonus Feat|

    7th|+7|+5|+2|+2|Improved Dungeon Crasher|

    8th|+8|+6|+2|+2|Bonus Feat|

    9th|+9|+6|+3|+3|Something Nifty|

    10th|+10|+7|+3|+3|Bonus Feat|[/table]
    Last edited by Rogue Shadows; 2012-05-09 at 01:59 AM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Sorcerer: a PrC Retool (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Favored Soul 8/Sorcerer 2/Mystic Theurge 10 looks interesting...
    With absolutely no special abilities except crazy spellcasting, there's no need to take this Sorcerer beyond 2nd level.
    Last edited by SinsI; 2012-05-09 at 05:11 AM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Sorcerer: a PrC Retool (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    These 10 level retools are strictly reworks of the base classes from the PHB from 20 levels into 10, so I won't be changing any class abilities (although I'll probably be paring them down in a couple of classes).

    As for this not being worth it, well, that's kind of my opinion of the PHB Sorcerer, but he's still pretty popular at my table, so there must be some draw to him.

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    Default Re: The Sorcerer: a PrC Retool (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Hoo boy. Now we've got an arcane caster that gets full progression in 9 levels.
    I wonder what the minimum level is to go ur-priest 2 sorcerer prc 2 mystic theurge 7? Full arcane and divine casting within eleven levels!
    Last edited by Baphomet; 2012-05-09 at 05:32 AM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Sorcerer: a PrC Retool (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Well, minimum entry into this class is level 9 (prerequisite of K(Arcane) 11 ranks), so I'd guess level 12? Not sure, never seen the Ur Priest class before.

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: The Sorcerer: a PrC Retool (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctis Vigil View Post
    Well, minimum entry into this class is level 9 (prerequisite of K(Arcane) 11 ranks)(...)
    8, actually.

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    Default Re: The Sorcerer: a PrC Retool (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    The Ur-Priest is a 10-level PrC from Complete Divine, which gives full divine casting from the cleric list over the course of 10 levels. It's the source of much cheese because of this.

    So here's a hypothetical build:
    warlock 6, grab iron will, spell focus (evil) (prereqs for ur-priest), and fell flight because flying is awesome
    Ur-priest 2
    Sorcerer PrC 2
    Mystic Theurge 8
    Not sure what to do with the last two levels of the progression, but at that point you've got a 3d6 eldritch blast, four invocations, a little DR, the ability to rebuke or command undead, a familiar, and full spellcasting progression from both the sorc/wiz and cleric lists, and you're level 18.

    I guess what I'm saying is, some of the other classes could use the boost that comes from getting all their features in a 10-level bundle. I think if you slap it on a full caster, though, it starts to cause problems.
    Last edited by Baphomet; 2012-05-09 at 02:07 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Sorcerer: a PrC Retool (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    A Sorcererís selection of spells is extremely limited. A Sorcerer begins play knowing five 0-level spells and three 1st-level spells of your choice.
    I think you copy-pasted it from the regular Sorcerer class, but it seems out of place here, since it's a PrC, and he doesn't begin play as one. Maybe "upon obtaining his first class level, a Sorcerer learns ...."

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Sorcerer: a PrC Retool (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Troubadour View Post
    8, actually.
    No, because you need to have those 11 ranks before you enter the class, not take the 11th on the same level you take the first level of this, which means you need to put max ranks in the skill for 8 levels, then take this starting at level 9.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladislav View Post
    I think you copy-pasted it from the regular Sorcerer class, but it seems out of place here, since it's a PrC, and he doesn't begin play as one. Maybe "upon obtaining his first class level, a Sorcerer learns ...."
    This is designed to be either a PrC or a 10 level replacement to the base class, hence why the stat block also has a "Skillpoints At 1st Level" entry.

    And for those saying this is uber powerful: yes, it is. These 10 level PrCs of base classes that I'm creating are for very high power games. If you don't want your players having that much power, GMs are allowed to ban these PrCs, and in fact I strongly recommend doing so if you're goal is a party of roughly T3. I started this more as a creative exercise which lead into transcribing all the PHB classes into this; exact tier level was more an afterthought than a major concern. I intend for these to lead into a rework of the game that uses these instead of the standard base classes (essentially, an E10 variant).

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    Roguenewb's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Sorcerer: a PrC Retool (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    This would work really well in an Urban Arcana setting, or a low magic world where there are no casting baselines. But as other people have sad, that the power of these combined with Theurge-y type classes is, frankly, unforgivable. Ur-Priest is already regarded as a +2 PrC, as is Sublime Chord, as it stands now I can jump through some really hard hoops to hit 9x2s at level 20, this makes it comically easy. Imagine a world with this, cleric and psion in it? 6 levels of anything, ur-priest 2, this 2 psion 2 (second of all casting). 8 levels left, take 4 in +A/+B, 3 in +A/+C and 1 in +B/C. A casts 9th, B casts 6, and C casts 3. If C is psionics and you take Practiced manifester, yowza.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Sorcerer: a PrC Retool (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Roguenewb View Post
    This would work really well in an Urban Arcana setting, or a low magic world where there are no casting baselines. But as other people have sad, that the power of these combined with Theurge-y type classes is, frankly, unforgivable. Ur-Priest is already regarded as a +2 PrC, as is Sublime Chord, as it stands now I can jump through some really hard hoops to hit 9x2s at level 20, this makes it comically easy. Imagine a world with this, cleric and psion in it? 6 levels of anything, ur-priest 2, this 2 psion 2 (second of all casting). 8 levels left, take 4 in +A/+B, 3 in +A/+C and 1 in +B/C. A casts 9th, B casts 6, and C casts 3. If C is psionics and you take Practiced manifester, yowza.
    I'm really not sure how to get around theurge-type classes breaking the hell out of these. Theurges actually rely on the classes they boost being 20 levels long to maintain balance. The most obvious solution to this is to not allow theurges, but that causes other issues. Any suggestions for how to fix this, anyone?

    Also, I made some minor changes to the familiar.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Sorcerer: a PrC Retool (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Baphomet View Post
    The Ur-Priest is a 10-level PrC from Complete Divine, which gives full divine casting from the cleric list over the course of 10 levels. It's the source of much cheese because of this.

    So here's a hypothetical build:
    warlock 6, grab iron will, spell focus (evil) (prereqs for ur-priest), and fell flight because flying is awesome
    Ur-priest 2
    Base Fortitude Save +3 is required, which you don't get with Warlock 6. Duskblade 3 / Warlock 2 is legal, and actually takes one less level.

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    Default Re: The Sorcerer: a PrC Retool (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctis Vigil View Post
    No, because you need to have those 11 ranks before you enter the class, not take the 11th on the same level you take the first level of this, which means you need to put max ranks in the skill for 8 levels, then take this starting at level 9.



    This is designed to be either a PrC or a 10 level replacement to the base class, hence why the stat block also has a "Skillpoints At 1st Level" entry.

    And for those saying this is uber powerful: yes, it is. These 10 level PrCs of base classes that I'm creating are for very high power games. If you don't want your players having that much power, GMs are allowed to ban these PrCs, and in fact I strongly recommend doing so if you're goal is a party of roughly T3. I started this more as a creative exercise which lead into transcribing all the PHB classes into this; exact tier level was more an afterthought than a major concern. I intend for these to lead into a rework of the game that uses these instead of the standard base classes (essentially, an E10 variant).
    Min lvl 6, Skill Focus

    asto uberpower games
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Sorcerer: a PrC Retool (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    Min lvl 6, Skill Focus

    asto uberpower games
    Not true, Skill Focus is a +3 bonus to the skill, not an additional +3 ranks in the skill. Prerequisite is 11 ranks, not a total of +11 to the skill (heck, I can nail +11 total at level 1, and I can't even optimize to save my life).

    And yeah, these are a bad idea in gestalt. But then, I know a lot of people who would argue that full casters in general are a bad idea in gestalt.

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    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Sorcerer: a PrC Retool (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctis Vigil View Post
    Not true, Skill Focus is a +3 bonus to the skill, not an additional +3 ranks in the skill. Prerequisite is 11 ranks, not a total of +11 to the skill (heck, I can nail +11 total at level 1, and I can't even optimize to save my life).

    And yeah, these are a bad idea in gestalt. But then, I know a lot of people who would argue that full casters in general are a bad idea in gestalt.
    i thought that it was a standard rule that you cant gestalt with 2 full casters who get different spell lists.

    also, +14 is possible at lvl 1 (Halfling +2, Move Silently , SF +3, max ranks +4, 20 dex +5)
    Last edited by toapat; 2012-05-09 at 11:24 PM.
    My Homebrew: found here.
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    PM Me if you would like a table from my homebrew reconstructed.

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  19. - Top - End - #19
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Sorcerer: a PrC Retool (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    i thought that it was a standard rule that you cant gestalt with 2 full casters who get different spell lists.
    This is generally true. I let my players take a full caster and a melee or partial caster (like a Paladin) in my gestalt games. Our table has a flat out house rule that bans all theurge classes in gestalt to make up for it, though.

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    Default Re: The Sorcerer: a PrC Retool (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    These 10 lvl classes could be easily used INSTEAD of gestalt, the power levels are comparible. As far as theurges are concerned, this idea makes them a moot point because they allow you to acheive 2 full 9 level progressions by 20 anyhow...practiced spellcaster should become standard fare for these guys as well, I'd imagine!
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    Default Re: The Sorcerer: a PrC Retool (3.5 PrC, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    i thought that it was a standard rule that you cant gestalt with 2 full casters who get different spell lists.
    Not true, the SRD gives examples of Cleric//Sorcerer. In fact the only forbidden is no two PRCs on both sides at the same level. In regards to mixing casters the only "no" is:
    "Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations - such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight - should be prohibited if youíre using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of whatís already a high-powered variant."
    Even there it's saying more to watch out for those classes they can cause headaches as they can quite easily letting one get a crazy high caster level. Theoretically up to 30 at 20th. Though there are debates about that as you would be gaining the same class features at the same level and in those cases you only get the "best". Even still one could eek out a CL of above 20 before your 20th level easily enought.

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