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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default All Tier 2, or how to make all classes equal by increasing overall power

    I don't know if this is a desirable goal, but this is the goal of this thread.
    So, please, don't argue too much about it ;)

    This said, let me share my thinkings. To push up in power (incredible raw power is what a T2 is) less fortunate classes, we need to find something shamelessly overpowered.

    My ideas:

    Fighter: Fightificer has already been done, it works for the purpose.

    Paladin: rewrite the code of conduct (pretty much what anyone does anyways), give him four choiches (LG, CG, LE, CE) and give him power to assume the form and powers (scaling with level) of outsiders of the same alignment of at least one component. I.E.: alter self-like powers, polymorph-like powers, shapechange-like powers. (I'm explicitly working on it done)

    Monk and Ninja: let's give them magic! (or psionics, if you prefer) This is not unheard (Avatar, Naruto, far east lore) and it's easy.

    Bard: a Thrallherd-like power scaling with level instead of fascinate-suggestion-mass suggestion and maybe planar-binding powers at high levels (a walking, singing candle of invocation)

    And now the questions.

    1) May the proposed changes, in your opinion, push those classes up to tier 2?

    2) What about Rogue, Ranger, Barbarian and so on?

    Additional note:
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    I willingly don't consider this part of tier 2 definition: "and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes". This may be a real issue for the purpose, but the definition of tier 2 is not sculpt in stone and maybe binder is not exactly this. So please be lenient with that
    Last edited by Ingus; 2012-05-24 at 07:52 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: All Tier 2, or how to make all classes equal by increasing overall power

    Perhaps the Rogue could kill the Bard, the Swashbuckler, the Ninja and the Scout and take their stuff?
    Likewise, the Fighter with the Barbarian, Ranger and Paladin?

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: All Tier 2, or how to make all classes equal by increasing overall power

    You could give the Ranger casting start at level 1 and let their animal companion advance at the same rate as a Druid's animal companion. Beef up their spell lists too, as well as the the Paladin's.

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    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: All Tier 2, or how to make all classes equal by increasing overall power

    In the words of Syndrome, "And when everyone's Tier 2...no one will be."

    Let's see...Tier 2 is all about having the enormous power to change the world at your fingertips. So how do you give that to a barbarian...

    Perhaps give the barbarian the ability to cast one sor/wiz spell as a spell-like ability once per day, and let him choose a new "spell known" every level, with level restrictions similar to a sor/wiz, so by level 20, he has 20 spells available to him that he can use as SLAs once per day each, and since they are SLAs, they suffer no component requirements and the barbarian can use them while raging (unless they require concentration, like summon swarm).

    Then you can customize your barbarian to fit your flavor. Want to play a barbarian who serves the Lords of the Nine Hells? Give him summon monster, polymorph, fireball, fly, shapechange and gate. Or maybe you want to be an anti-magic barbarian? Detect magic, magical aura, dispel magic, shatter, greater dispel magic, spell immunity, and disjunction.

    Huh...I kind of like this idea now actually.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: All Tier 2, or how to make all classes equal by increasing overall power

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    In the words of Syndrome, "And when everyone's Tier 2...no one will be."

    Let's see...Tier 2 is all about having the enormous power to change the world at your fingertips. So how do you give that to a barbarian...

    Perhaps give the barbarian the ability to cast one sor/wiz spell as a spell-like ability once per day, and let him choose a new "spell known" every level, with level restrictions similar to a sor/wiz, so by level 20, he has 20 spells available to him that he can use as SLAs once per day each, and since they are SLAs, they suffer no component requirements and the barbarian can use them while raging (unless they require concentration, like summon swarm).

    Then you can customize your barbarian to fit your flavor. Want to play a barbarian who serves the Lords of the Nine Hells? Give him summon monster, polymorph, fireball, fly, shapechange and gate. Or maybe you want to be an anti-magic barbarian? Detect magic, magical aura, dispel magic, shatter, greater dispel magic, spell immunity, and disjunction.

    Huh...I kind of like this idea now actually.
    ... that sort of sounds like a sorcerer with full BAB and rage... I think the draw of the barbarians is that he spends available actions attacking and buffing, not using fireball or summoning minions.

    A magic-breaker barbarian versus a you-are-the-demons barbarian sounds cool, but I'm not sure giving people a spell list to mess with is the right idea. Especially with wraithstrike as a level 2 spell.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: All Tier 2, or how to make all classes equal by increasing overall power

    This would require a revision of non-magical classes, to avoid having to give everyone spells. Making everyone Tier 3 is easier: limit Wizards/Sorcerors/Clerics/etc. to a few schools of magic (ala the Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and so forth) to limit their versatility, and give all non-casters martial Maneuvers to taste. That might roughly do it.

    For tier 2, you might either need to combine Martial Maneuvers with minor spellcasting/extra actions (consider mixing in some Factotum with all non-casting classes), or devise a new system of non-magical effects with both strong effects and the ability to do more than just combat. *ponders this*

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  7. - Top - End - #7
    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: All Tier 2, or how to make all classes equal by increasing overall power

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    ... that sort of sounds like a sorcerer with full BAB and rage... I think the draw of the barbarians is that he spends available actions attacking and buffing, not using fireball or summoning minions.
    Well yes, but the barbarian as-is is a Tier 4 class. If you want him to compete with the big bad spellcasters, he needs some spellcasting. There's no way around that, even if you draw up a small list of abilities and gave them to him, even a large list for him to choose from, it would not equal the 1000+ options granted to a sorcerer, unless you give him the 1000+ options granted to a sorcerer.


    For tier 2, you might either need to combine Martial Maneuvers with minor spellcasting/extra actions (consider mixing in some Factotum with all non-casting classes), or devise a new system of non-magical effects with both strong effects and the ability to do more than just combat. *ponders this*
    The tier system is partially a comparison of classes, as much as it is a "solution to problems" system (which is why I made the Syndrome quote before). Even if you come up with a system of "strong effects", it will most likely not compare to the incredibly vast system of strong effects that sorcerers and wizards (and to an arguable extent, druids and clerics) enjoy.

    You can give the mundane barbarian the ability to fly, give him a massive boost to Intimidate and let him panick creatures with it, give him the ability to Sunder spells and pierce DR and even read minds, but sorcerers can teleport all the way across the world, or shift planes, or gate in solars, or change into dragons, or craft constructs, or animate the dead, or....so many different options.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: All Tier 2, or how to make all classes equal by increasing overall power

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    The tier system is partially a comparison of classes, as much as it is a "solution to problems" system (which is why I made the Syndrome quote before). Even if you come up with a system of "strong effects", it will most likely not compare to the incredibly vast system of strong effects that sorcerers and wizards (and to an arguable extent, druids and clerics) enjoy.

    You can give the mundane barbarian the ability to fly, give him a massive boost to Intimidate and let him panick creatures with it, give him the ability to Sunder spells and pierce DR and even read minds, but sorcerers can teleport all the way across the world, or shift planes, or gate in solars, or change into dragons, or craft constructs, or animate the dead, or....so many different options.
    Then the trick would be to reach that level of capability, wouldn't it?

    Believe me, Neo...I'm WELL aware of the issue. But that doesn't mean it can't be done. Imagine, for example, an ability pulled out of legendary heroes like Hercules. An ability that, say, allows a fighter to accomplish, in a single round, a task that would take a hundred men a year to complete. That's HUGELY versatile and powerful. Things like that have some potential. But these are just glimmers of ideas.

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  9. - Top - End - #9
    Titan in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: All Tier 2, or how to make all classes equal by increasing overall power

    I tried something like this a while back. Never ended up posting it, but what it basically was was a set of martial maneuvers that allowed more utility and tactical options closer to the level of spells. I figured it raised the martial adepts to around Tier 2. Combined with a house rule to grant a maneuver progression to mundane classes, it'd work for everyone.

    Not going to post the whole thing here 'cause...it's long. But here's the snapshot view.

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    1st
    DESERT WIND
    Ki Bolt: Unleash a bolt of elemental Ki energy.
    DEVOTED SPIRIT
    Tend the Wounded (Boost): Increase the effects of healing.
    DIAMOND MIND
    Open the Eyes: You can detect a type of aura.
    IRON HEART
    Disrupt Opponent (Constant): Increase DC to cast defensively, lower foe's Zone of Command.
    SETTING SUN
    Tactical Swap (Constant): Allies in your Zone of Command may swap positions.
    SHADOW HAND
    Combat Cloak: (Constant) Reduce penalties to stealth.
    STONE DRAGON
    Earth Breaker: Create difficult terrain.
    TIGER CLAW
    Lore of the Wilds (Constant): You can track and gain more information, and are difficult to track.
    WHITE RAVEN
    Inspiring Presence (Boost): Incite emotions to grant bonuses or inflict penalties.

    2nd
    DESERT WIND
    Flash Step (Stance): Teleport to a nearby place.
    DEVOTED SPIRIT
    Ease Suffering (Stance): Grant allies in your Zone of Command temporary hit points.
    DIAMOND MIND
    Know Your Surroundings (Constant): Perceive from every square in your Zone of Command.
    IRON HEART
    Instant Student: Grant an ally a temporary proficiency.
    SETTING SUN
    Break the Trust (Free): Catch a foe in a lie to impose -10 Bluff, force rerolls.
    SHADOW HAND
    Cloak the Field (Stance): Allies in your Zone of Command have concealment.
    STONE DRAGON
    Slow the Rush (Counter): Opponents move through your Zone of Command more slowly.
    TIGER CLAW
    Prowl Your Territory: Move within your Zone of Command as a 5' step.
    WHITE RAVEN
    Lead the Unit (Constant): Unit of similar troops may use better of your roll or their own, retroactively aid another, combine damage.

    3rd
    DESERT WIND
    Ki Burst: Damage those in your Zone with elemental Ki energy.
    DEVOTED SPIRIT
    Triumphant Surge: Allies recover half hit points lost.
    DIAMOND MIND
    Meditative Glimpse: Meditate to get a vision of a nearby place or being.
    IRON HEART
    Parry Spell (Counter): Use attack roll to defend those in Zone against magic.
    SETTING SUN
    Outmaneuver (Counter): For every ten feet an enemy moves in your Zone of Command, you move an ally five feet.
    SHADOW HAND
    Bypass Security: Slip your allies past a lock or trap.
    STONE DRAGON
    Dig In: Prepare locations that provide your allies with cover, enemies treat as difficult terrain.
    TIGER CLAW
    Embrace Nature's Fury (Constant): Take no penalties for environmental conditions, reduce damage from natural hazards.
    WHITE RAVEN
    Demanding Presence (Boost): Force foes to act a certain way.

    4th
    DESERT WIND
    Walk the Desert Winds (Stance): Walk on air.
    DEVOTED SPIRIT
    Mitigate Damage (Stance): Gain pool of temporary hit points to spend on injured allies.
    DIAMOND MIND
    Pinpoint Threat (Constant): Detect anyone who makes an attack into or within your Zone of Command.
    IRON HEART
    Instant Apprentice: Grant an ally a temporary feat, skill, or maneuver.
    SETTING SUN
    Hear the Lies: You know when you are being deceived, and how.
    SHADOW HAND
    Uncertain Location (Stance): Occupy multiple positions within your Zone of Command; attack from any, defend from one.
    STONE DRAGON
    Halt Progress (Counter): Enemies in your Zone of Command must save to move.
    TIGER CLAW
    Defend Your Territory (Stance): You threaten all squares in your Zone of Command.
    WHITE RAVEN
    Team Tactics (Constant): Allies in your Zone of Command not flat-footed/flanked/surprised unless all are, flank adjacent.

    5th
    DESERT WIND
    Ki Flash: Ki attack deals 1d8/level.
    DEVOTED SPIRIT
    Triumphant Recovery: Allies automatically succeed future saves, remove ability damage.
    DIAMOND MIND
    Meditative Insight: Meditate to get answer to a question.
    IRON HEART
    Sunder Spell (Counter): Make attack roll to deny your Zone of Command to an area effect.
    SETTING SUN
    Relocation (Counter): When foe moves in your Zone of Command, must save or you move it half distance.
    SHADOW HAND
    Hidden in Air (Constant): Hide in plain sight.
    STONE DRAGON
    Earth Smasher: Create terrain that is dangerous to pass through.
    TIGER CLAW
    Exist Anywhere (Constant): Always acquire food, water, shelter; ignore negative planar effects and persistent area spells.
    WHITE RAVEN
    Inciting Presence: Incite sudden action or crippling status effects.

    6th
    DESERT WIND
    Retrace the Wind: Teleport to a place you are familiar.
    DEVOTED SPIRIT
    Mitigate Effect (Stance): Allies in your Zone of Command can spend hit points to succeed save.
    DIAMOND MIND
    Hypercognition (Constant): You gain blindsight within your Zone of Command.
    IRON HEART
    Forged in the Iron Heart: Enhance weapons and armor.
    SETTING SUN
    Instill Belief: Create a nagging belief in a target.
    SHADOW HAND
    Shroud the Field (Stance): Allies in your Zone of Command gain total concealment.
    STONE DRAGON
    Deny Access (Counter): When you strike a target, it must save or be launched from your Zone of Command.
    TIGER CLAW
    Control Your Territory: With full-round action, standard action attack affects all foes in Zone of Command.
    WHITE RAVEN
    Share Stance (Constant): Allies in your Zone of Command benefit from your stance.

    7th
    DESERT WIND
    Ki Flare: Ki attack deals 1d10/level.
    DEVOTED SPIRIT
    Triumphant Return: Allies less than half hp below -10 restored to life after battle.
    DIAMOND MIND
    Meditative Sight: Meditate to get a vision of a place or being you know.
    IRON HEART
    Reflect Magic (Counter): Reflect targeted spells in your Zone of Command on caster.
    SETTING SUN
    Reposition: You can move everyone in your Zone of Command.
    SHADOW HAND
    Bypass Barrier: Slip your allies past obstructions.
    STONE DRAGON
    Earth Reaver: Create areas of incredibly dangerous terrain.
    TIGER CLAW
    Natural Paradise: Establish a secure, comfortable place to rest.
    WHITE RAVEN
    Overwhelming Presence: Force foes to follow your commands.

    8th
    DESERT WIND
    Retrace the Breeze: Teleport to a place you know of.
    DEVOTED SPIRIT
    Furious Counter (Counter): Attack a foe who harms an ally in your Zone; ally heals half damage you do.
    DIAMOND MIND
    Precognitive Reflexes (Counter): Foes who end turn in your Zone of Command must immediately state next actions.
    IRON HEART
    Battle Plan: Prepare contingent actions.
    SETTING SUN
    Hear the Truth: When you are being deceived, you learn the truth.
    SHADOW HAND
    Uncertain Formation (Stance): Disguise your allies, create misleading images.
    STONE DRAGON
    Deny Passage (Counter): Foes must save just to enter or exit your Zone of Command.
    TIGER CLAW
    Claim Your Territory (Boost): Anyone who enters your Zone of Command acts as if within it for encounter.
    WHITE RAVEN
    Many But One: Divide negative effects among unit, distribute positive.

    9th
    DESERT WIND
    Follow the Winds: Teleport to any place, even indirectly.
    Ki Blaze: Perform a lethal Ki attack.
    DEVOTED SPIRIT
    Triumphant Advance: Restore allies to full hit points and status.
    Impervious Sanctuary (Counter): Opponents must save to harm allies in your Zone of Command.
    DIAMOND MIND
    Meditative Understanding: Meditate to get solution to a dilemma.
    Precognitive Response (Counter): Use standard or move action in place of AoO.
    IRON HEART
    Instant Champion: Let an ally fight as well as you can.
    Redirect Magic (Counter): You can alter the targeting of magic used in your Zone of Command.
    SETTING SUN
    Reveal Hidden Truths: You can alter memories, beliefs, and personality, if the foe believes you.
    Redirection (Counter): You redirect any action in your Zone of Command.
    SHADOW HAND
    Latent Stealth (Stance): Foes cannot perceive the results of your actions.
    Shifting Shades (Stance): Designate different phases in your Zone of Command.
    STONE DRAGON
    Earth Sunder: Fill the area with deadly terrain.
    Deny Interaction (Counter): Foes must save to send spells or projectiles across your Zone of Command.
    TIGER CLAW
    Rapid Respite: Help your allies recover daily abilities with brief rest.
    Master Your Territory: Take full attacks against everyone in your Zone of Command.
    WHITE RAVEN
    Awesome Presence (Constant): Cause positive and negative effect simultaneously.
    Direct the Troops: Take an action to give lesser action to all allies in Zone of Command, or equal action to one ally in Zone.

    A role playing game is three things. It is an interactive story, a game of chance, and a process in critical thinking.

    If brevity is the soul of wit, I'm witty like a vampire!

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    M&M 3e Character Guide

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: All Tier 2, or how to make all classes equal by increasing overall power

    give him four choiches (LG, CG, LE, CE)
    You can do that, Paladin of Freedom, Tyranny and Anarchy are in SRD.

    Monk and Ninja: let's give them magic! (or psionics, if you prefer) This is not unheard (Avatar, Naruto, far east lore) and it's easy.
    I would give them a choice and limited spell/powers list, sorta like Bard's.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: All Tier 2, or how to make all classes equal by increasing overall power

    Quote Originally Posted by Man on Fire View Post
    You can do that, Paladin of Freedom, Tyranny and Anarchy are in SRD.
    I think the point was less flexibility, and more that all paladin options are all trap options.

    Some easy barbarian bumps:
    • Rage has no per-day limit, but has an activation cost of a swift action
    • Rage will leave you fatigued only for the number of rounds in which you raged - 1 (you may rage only 1 round apiece, reactivating each round, if you're willing to spend the action cost on it)
    • Put DR at 1/2 level, rounded down
    • Add +1d6 "rage damage", somewhere nears levels 2-4, and have it scale by 1d6 every 3-4 levels. Untyped.
    • Because he's supposed to be tanking and you need incentive not to refresh rage every round, the barbarian should have a set of immediate-action defenses that boost his saves (covering ref/wil), AC, or maybe HP. Also, removing debuffs as a swift action would be cool.
    • If need be, SLAs could be handed out but they should be watched closely. Barbarians will do well with buffs made for them (e.g. enlarge person), but will wreack havoc with buffs made for casters (e.g. wraithstrike and slay living).
    Last edited by Just to Browse; 2012-05-18 at 06:26 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    RedSorcererGirl

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    Default Re: All Tier 2, or how to make all classes equal by increasing overall power

    For the Ranger and the Paladin in general, they should be bumped up to at least bard casting advancement. Slightly better would be preferable, but you'd have to do a new progression and it might not be worth it. As those are behind the Tier 2 full casters, you should expect them to use their spells to cover utility effects instead of being their primary shtick. So they're going to need a reasonably awesome primary shtick as well.

    But no class should have a half caster, delayed progression like the Ranger and Pally do now. It's a joke at Tier 2, and I'd probably hand it out as a feat to classes that wanted to supplement their casting with a different style.

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Some easy barbarian bumps:
    • Rage has no per-day limit, but has an activation cost of a swift action
    • Rage will leave you fatigued only for the number of rounds in which you raged - 1 (you may rage only 1 round apiece, reactivating each round, if you're willing to spend the action cost on it)
    • Put DR at 1/2 level, rounded down
    • Add +1d6 "rage damage", somewhere nears levels 2-4, and have it scale by 1d6 every 3-4 levels. Untyped.
    • Because he's supposed to be tanking and you need incentive not to refresh rage every round, the barbarian should have a set of immediate-action defenses that boost his saves (covering ref/wil), AC, or maybe HP. Also, removing debuffs as a swift action would be cool.
    • If need be, SLAs could be handed out but they should be watched closely. Barbarians will do well with buffs made for them (e.g. enlarge person), but will wreack havoc with buffs made for casters (e.g. wraithstrike and slay living).
    I second most of this.

    At Tier 2, the best way to tank is to be a credible threat, and the Barbarian does that by raging and running up and hitting things hard. So you want them to be doing that as much as possible, and to get some nice benefits at the same time. A big pile of immunities would be worthwhile, like protection from evil, death ward, mind blank, wahtever, just enough that they're not easy to shut down. They rage, they get it and are hard to take down without effort. Rage dice are also a good plan, and I'd even give them at the same rate as rogue sneak attack. Since I don't particularly want TWF Barbs, I'd restrict it to main hand attacks and just let them have it all the time. It can be untyped, or you can work in an elemental theme and give them a couple of type options per round.

    I get wanting to give them a do something other than raging though, and there's a few things you could do on that side. Replacing their DR with a fast healing that only works while they're not raging would be a start, it's not like healing isn't basically free at Tier 2 anyway. A swift action lesser / standard / greater restoration mechanic based on level would be nice as well, since they can counter attribute damage and some nasty effects with it. That also means that they can trivially cure fatigue after some level, so you should probably drop it about the same time as they get it.

    Past that they still need utility effects though. I'd upgrade their fast movement to short range teleportation at some point, so they can get around walls and reach and other nonsense. If you want to give them an elemental flair, which I think fits with the primal fluff, elemental summons and limited target plane shifts via violence against a sufficiently large quantity of elemental material could work (cutting a hole in the world style). Toss on some elemental immunities and auras, and you might have a sufficiently versatile barbarian to survive at Tier 2.

    ----

    Lastly, you might want to mine some of the Tome revisions to the classes for ideas, even if they're not exactly what you're looking for:

    Barbarian
    Paladin
    Last edited by tarkisflux; 2012-05-19 at 12:26 AM.
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    My skills rewrite - Making mundane a level range, not a descriptor

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    I prefer higher powered games, do not consider magic to be "special", and want non-casters to have similar levels of utility. If you haven't clearly said what your balance goals are, my suggestions generally reflect that. I'm pretty good with other balance points too though, so if I'm offering OP advice, let me know and I'll fix that.

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    Default Re: All Tier 2, or how to make all classes equal by increasing overall power

    Wouldn't it be simpler to allow gestalt, with nobody being allowed to go below six "tier points"? T1 would have to couple with T5, T2 would be encouraged with T4, and you could gestalt two T3s if that tickled your fancy. Wouldn't be perfect, but would allow everybody access to extreme power. And shouldn't have too much disparity in a real game.

    The other alternative is giving each class a list of superpowers they can pick from on occasion. Seems like an excessive amount of overhead.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Titan in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: All Tier 2, or how to make all classes equal by increasing overall power

    Wealth is another option. You could have certain classes be able to "get more" out of various magic items while they use them (so the items themselves don't get stronger, the character just gets extra benefits for using them). Mechanically, let them add additional effects of their choice to magic items up to the normal cost of the item, to a total maximum value equal to the WBL for a character of their class level, only while they use the item. Or do up to double the cost and double WBL if that isn't enough. Maybe stipulate that the additional effects would have to be at least somewhat related to the item itself.

    And if you want to move things to Tier 1, just let them change their choices by spending an hour once per day.
    A role playing game is three things. It is an interactive story, a game of chance, and a process in critical thinking.

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  15. - Top - End - #15
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: All Tier 2, or how to make all classes equal by increasing overall power

    Quote Originally Posted by Reluctance View Post
    Wouldn't it be simpler to allow gestalt, with nobody being allowed to go below six "tier points"? T1 would have to couple with T5, T2 would be encouraged with T4, and you could gestalt two T3s if that tickled your fancy. Wouldn't be perfect, but would allow everybody access to extreme power. And shouldn't have too much disparity in a real game.

    The other alternative is giving each class a list of superpowers they can pick from on occasion. Seems like an excessive amount of overhead.
    Those are not additive properties. A T1//T5 class is a T1+ (not the twice-betrayer, but a caster with a better chassis), while a T2//T4 class is a potent T2+ class. A T3//T3 class is either a T2 or T3+. Casters will take that stuff for full saves (monk), and high HD/Full BAB (fighter and barb). You could allow two Tier 3 classes to gestalt for Tier 2, maybe. You could also try T4//T4//T3, and maybe T5//T5//T4//T3 even, but it gets to look uglier and becomes harder to balance the more stuff you throw in.

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    Default Re: All Tier 2, or how to make all classes equal by increasing overall power

    I'd rather nerf all tier 1 classes to tier 2 power level. Rewrite or erase the most problematic spells and then make sure every class is at least a mid/high tier 3 and no more powerful than a mid tier 2.

    That'd be balance enough, but it's a very tough task.

    I don't mind a few classes being more powerful, as long as the gap is not too big and every class is fun to play.
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    Default Re: All Tier 2, or how to make all classes equal by increasing overall power

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Those are not additive properties. A T1//T5 class is a T1+ (not the twice-betrayer, but a caster with a better chassis), while a T2//T4 class is a potent T2+ class. A T3//T3 class is either a T2 or T3+. Casters will take that stuff for full saves (monk), and high HD/Full BAB (fighter and barb). You could allow two Tier 3 classes to gestalt for Tier 2, maybe. You could also try T4//T4//T3, and maybe T5//T5//T4//T3 even, but it gets to look uglier and becomes harder to balance the more stuff you throw in.
    The intent in the OP seemed to be to perk everybody up to high power play. Tier-sensitive gestalt isn't perfect, but it's a handy quick n' dirty way to get everybody up to roughly the same place. It can't handle extreme levels of optimization. Since it's hard for any game to, I don't see that as a huge problem.

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    Default Re: All Tier 2, or how to make all classes equal by increasing overall power

    Quote Originally Posted by Reluctance View Post
    The intent in the OP seemed to be to perk everybody up to high power play. Tier-sensitive gestalt isn't perfect, but it's a handy quick n' dirty way to get everybody up to roughly the same place. It can't handle extreme levels of optimization. Since it's hard for any game to, I don't see that as a huge problem.
    I agree that you could do Tier-Based Gestalt, I was just disagreeing with the way you did it. T3//T3 =/= T1//T5.

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    Default Re: All Tier 2, or how to make all classes equal by increasing overall power

    Quote Originally Posted by Reluctance View Post
    The intent in the OP seemed to be to perk everybody up to high power play. Tier-sensitive gestalt isn't perfect, but it's a handy quick n' dirty way to get everybody up to roughly the same place. It can't handle extreme levels of optimization. Since it's hard for any game to, I don't see that as a huge problem.
    The intent of the OP was to bring classes up to T2, not characters. While you could certainly run a successful game with Tier gestalts, you wouldn't be playing in it with a T2 barbarian. You'd be playing a Sorcerer / Wilder who also rages sometimes, and that's not the same thing at all. So it's a reasonable call, but I don't think it quite scratches the OP's itch.
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    Default Re: All Tier 2, or how to make all classes equal by increasing overall power

    Working T2 Barb Fix (WIP): Everything about the barbarian is unchanged except for what is noted:

    Fast Movement: This is now 10' per three levels, rounded down

    Rage: This is now at-will and takes a swift action to activate. The rage lasts for a number of rounds up to the barbarian's new Constitution Modifier, and then he is fatigued for a number of rounds equal to the number of rounds he raged. He also gains DR X/-, where X is half his level, while raging.

    At level 3, and every three levels thereafter, the barbarian gains an extra +1d6 untyped damage to his successful attacks.

    At level 4, the barbarian gains his morale bonus to all of his saves.

    Trap Sense: This becomes named Great Awareness, and the barbarian may use an immediate action add the bonus as a circumstance bonus to his AC, any one save, or a skill check, for 1 round.

    Unbreakable: At level 5, a raging barbarian can spend an immediate action to substitute one of his saves for a Fortitude Save.

    Strength of the Earth: At level 7, a raging barbarian can use Unbreakable and Great Awareness with the same immediate action.

    Tireless Rage: Bumped down to 7th level.

    Feet of the Wind: At level 8, a raging barbarian moves so fast that he dances along the edge of the world. When he moves, it is treated as teleportation, so he does not incur attacks for opportunity for movement and is not inhibited by barriers. If the barbarian moves to a spot that he cannot occupy, he is shunted out to the nearest exit and takes 1d6 damage per 5' moved in such a way.

    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

    1st|+1|+2|+0|+0|Fast Movement +10', Illiteracy, Rage

    2nd|+2|+3|+0|+0|Uncanny Dodge, Evasion

    3rd|+3|+3|+1|+1|Great Awareness +1, Rage Damage +1d6

    4th|+4|+4|+1|+1|Mettle, Fast Movement +20'

    5th|+5|+4|+1|+1|Improved Uncanny Dodge, Unbreakable

    6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|Great Awareness +2, Rage Damage +2d6

    7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+2|Fast Movement +30', Strength of the Earth, Tireless Rage

    8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+2|Feet of the Wind

    9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+3|Great Awareness +3, Rage Damage +3d6

    10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|Fast Movement +40'

    11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3|

    12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|Great Awareness +4, Rage Damage +4d6

    13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4|Fast Movement +50'

    14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4|

    15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5|Great Awareness +5, Rage Damage +5d6

    16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5|Fast Movement +60'

    17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|

    18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|Great Awareness +6, Rage Damage +6d6

    19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6|Fast Movement +70'

    20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|

    [/table]

    Annnnd I'm really tired, so I've stopped at level 7. What do I add?

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    Default Re: All Tier 2, or how to make all classes equal by increasing overall power

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Annnnd I'm really tired, so I've stopped at level 7. What do I add?
    Needs a LOT to be Tier 2. You haven't really even upped it to T3 yet, as all this thing gets is more stuff to be good at combat. Given the tiers measure power second, and versatility first, this is lagging way behind a T2 class because it still has no options other than combat, and no option IN combat other than "tank damage, deal damage."

    Not sure what to recommend though, without knowing what you want this Barbarian to be aside from T2. Psudeo-magical Rage effects might be a start?

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    Default Re: All Tier 2, or how to make all classes equal by increasing overall power

    Suggestions for the Tier 2 barbarian- Needs to be able to fly. Give him an Epic use of the Intimidate skill that changes people's attitudes to fanatical, similar to the epic use of the Diplomacy skill, but with a ridiculously low DC, like 30 or something. Boom. A barbarian's summon monster. (Barbarians in 2.E were known for getting an especially large number of followers anyway, iirc).

    Other than that, a continuous extraordinary freedom of movement effect would be a nice follow-up to the teleportation effect. The ability to deal 10x damage to unattended objects would be huge, as that would effectively allow a barbarian to single-handedly cleave through mountainsides and bash doors in with an unarmed strike. Still very much in keeping with the flavor, but extremely versatile.

    Maybe an ability called Double Vision, which lets you create an illusion by hitting a creature over the head with a bludgeoning weapon, and then that creature suffers a 50% miss chance against every creature for 1 minute or so? Though that's still combat-related.

    Hmmm...spell resistance would also help. SR of 10+class level, increases to 15+class level while raging?

    An ability called Primal Speech, which allows the barbarian to communicate with any creature (including creatures without a language, such as animals) by making a Wisdom check would also be pretty useful. You fluff it as the barbarian just making hand gestures and grunting a lot.

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    Default Re: All Tier 2, or how to make all classes equal by increasing overall power

    I'm not sure even that would make it Tier 2. Recall the difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2: Tier 1 can break the game in every way possible; Tier 2 can break the game in some ways.

    Take, for example, the Druid. It's a Tier 1 and near the upper end of Tier 1 because it has three very good abilities: full spellcasting, the animal companion and Wild Shape. With those three things, the Druid can potentially fill any role in a party and possibly several at once (depending on the level of optimization), thus breaking the game.

    Two Druid ACFs, the UA Spontaneous Casting and the PHBII Shapeshift, turn the Druid into Tier 2: the spellscasting is not as good, it can no longer be done while transformed and there's no more animal companion. but the Druid still has full casting even if it's from a more limited list and so still has several ways to break the game and can still fill multiple roles, if not as effectively as before.

    I don't think there's really a way for a non-caster class to get enough upgrades to become Tier 2 while still remaining a non-caster.

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    Default Re: All Tier 2, or how to make all classes equal by increasing overall power

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipilot24 View Post
    I'm not sure even that would make it Tier 2. Recall the difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2: Tier 1 can break the game in every way possible; Tier 2 can break the game in some ways.
    I think the difference is more, Tier 1 can do pretty much everything, and Tier 2 can do pretty much anything. I don't think including "breaking the game" in the definition is really a useful definition for the purposes of this thread.

    Now, yes, as it happens, most of the Tier 1 and Tier 2 classes can break the game in more and larger-scale ways than lower Tier classes. But I'd figure that's a separate problem - the fact that game-breaking mechanics to exist. Homebrew should, I think, be designed as non-game-breaking even when balanced against classes with game-breaking potential.

    For barbarians in particular, what about something that lets them, say, perform some ritual on a creature it killed (consume its heart, fashion a totem, perform a rite, whatever) which lets them gain certain powers of the creature? At low levels, it might be limited only to animals and to say, stat and skill boosts. But as it levels, it can affect more powerful creatures, and get feats, Exceptional abilities, Supernatural abilities, and eventually spell-like abilities.

    It would need a limit of how many powers it can have at once, and probably certain hard caps as well as restrictions to prevent it from getting really exploitable abilities, but it should be versatile enough to hit Tier 2 if you get the numbers right.
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    RedSorcererGirl

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    Default Re: All Tier 2, or how to make all classes equal by increasing overall power

    Tier 2 classes have a lot of potential, but specific Tier 2 characters only wind up with really exceptional abilities in a few areas. While mimicking the former in a class without piles of selectable abilities at each level is likely impossible, the latter seems pretty within reach. So I'm going to focus on that. It's a bit more narrow than the fully selectable T2s, but should still be able to hang with them. Looting from my own work (where I ported lots of this stuff into skills), you can add in the following bits:

    • AoE fear effect based on intimidation fluff
    • "Friends" via intimidation, for at least until they can run away
    • Command/suggestion based on intimidation fluff
    • A decent spot / listen, and illusion countering / true sight abilities
    • Planar adaption styled along the lines of wilderness survival abilities
    • Summons or plane shifting along previously discussed lines.
    • If not a fly speed (which I don't think they need) a crazy big jump. Like using their fast movement straight up or whatever without suffering falling damage.
    • An increased run time, to use their increased movement as a faster overland travel ability.
    • Limited scrying maybe, by using old viewing techniques and natural pools
    • Spider climb as a climbing upgrade, and a swimming analogue.
    • Increased lying abilities, up to and including lying about really core things about yourself via non-detection or mind blank.


    Some of that stuff can be during rage only, it doesn't really matter when they have unlimited rages. But each level should be giving them 2, 3, or even more things to try to keep up with the versatility of your target Tier. Probably something combat and a couple of utility things per level to keep them rounded out.
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    I prefer higher powered games, do not consider magic to be "special", and want non-casters to have similar levels of utility. If you haven't clearly said what your balance goals are, my suggestions generally reflect that. I'm pretty good with other balance points too though, so if I'm offering OP advice, let me know and I'll fix that.

  26. - Top - End - #26
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    Default Re: All Tier 2, or how to make all classes equal by increasing overall power

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    I'd rather nerf all tier 1 classes to tier 2 power level. Rewrite or erase the most problematic spells and then make sure every class is at least a mid/high tier 3 and no more powerful than a mid tier 2.
    Welcome to Pathfinder :p

    Quote Originally Posted by Quellian-dyrae View Post

    For barbarians in particular, what about something that lets them, say, perform some ritual on a creature it killed (consume its heart, fashion a totem, perform a rite, whatever) which lets them gain certain powers of the creature? At low levels, it might be limited only to animals and to say, stat and skill boosts. But as it levels, it can affect more powerful creatures, and get feats, Exceptional abilities, Supernatural abilities, and eventually spell-like abilities.

    It would need a limit of how many powers it can have at once, and probably certain hard caps as well as restrictions to prevent it from getting really exploitable abilities, but it should be versatile enough to hit Tier 2 if you get the numbers right.
    This would work very well, it is sensible fluff-wise and makes a hell of a barbarian. Good and neutrals barbarians eat an enemy out of respect, evil barbarians out of respect or cannibalism
    One can work with this.

    About Rogue, somewhere out there there is a PrC called Charlatan. It may be possible to work with same dynamics (bluff out people in believing that imaginary things are real, to the max).

    And the nerfed druid may be the ranger on steroids I needed.

    Alot of work, but I've got plentry of ideas. Thank you to everyone.

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    Default Re: All Tier 2, or how to make all classes equal by increasing overall power

    Edit note: added link to Ziegander's Fightificer and to my Evangelist of Steel
    Last edited by Ingus; 2012-05-24 at 07:55 AM.

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    Default Re: All Tier 2, or how to make all classes equal by increasing overall power

    Quote Originally Posted by Ingus View Post
    Welcome to Pathfinder :p
    Where full casters are still Tier 1 and the Fighter is still limited to hitting people with a big stick. :-P

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    Default Re: All Tier 2, or how to make all classes equal by increasing overall power

    Welcome to Pathfinder :p
    This is adorable.

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    Default Re: All Tier 2, or how to make all classes equal by increasing overall power

    This is just for kidding (even so, this was PF goal, by the way)

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