Zinc Saucier Optimisation Challenge 5: To crush their builds and hear the lamentation

[The Underlord]

Honestly. I've got nothing. No inspiration, no idea, and sadly, no motivation. I'll stick with judging if possible.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I've got nothing as well - I did indicate an interest in judging, however.

[motoko's ghost]

All right then, I guess I'll post up the builds now



Rager of Cocidius

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The defining feature of a barbarian is rage, the ability to boost strength, constitution and willpower a few times a day. Importantly, this is *not* and enhancement bonus, so it stacks with equipment.

The Build and its rage-like features:

Race: Human
Deity: Cocidius
{table=head]Level|Class|Feat|BAB|Rage-alike
1st|Ranger|Able Learner, Nymph's Kiss|1|
2nd|Paladin of Freedom||2|
3rd|Paladin of Freedom|Animal Devotion|3|Ape's Fury: Str +2, Lay on Hands, divine grace
4th|Paladin of Freedom||4|
5th|Paladin of Freedom||5|
6th|Paladin of Freedom|Weapon Focus (longspear)|6|Ape's Fury: Str +4
7th|Divine Crusader (freedom)||6|
8th|Divine Crusader (freedom)||7|
9th|Divine Crusader (freedom)|Power Attack|8|
10th|Divine Crusader (freedom)||9|
11th|Divine Crusader (freedom)||9|Righteous Might: Str +4, Con +2 (also large)
12th|Divine Crusader (freedom)|Quicken Spell|10|Ape's Fury: Str +6
13th|Divine Crusader (freedom)||11|
14th|Divine Crusader (freedom)||12|
15th|Divine Crusader (freedom)|DMM(quicken)|12|Greater Visage of the Deity: Str +4, Con +4, (also wings and other stuff)
16th|Divine Crusader (freedom)||13|
17th|Warblade||14|
18th|Warblade|Spontaneous Healer|15|Ape's Fury: Str +8, cure spells
19th|Warblade||16|
20th|Warblade||17|[/table]

It is worth noting that these abilities are sacred, size and racial, so they stack for str +16, con +6. These abilities don't give a will save bonus, but between Divine Grace and the good will save on the Divine Crusader, this shouldn't be a problem. The con bonuses may come in a little short (or a little late), but con only really provides hp and fort saves. Being able to heal oneself is almost as good as hp, and Divine Grace supplies the fort save.

In addition to fighting, a barbarian is expected to be a moderately effective wilderness scout. Keeping the ranger class skill list and having an extra skill point from Nymph's Kiss should manage that.

Barbarians do get a few miscellaneous class features. Most of these are immitatable:

{table]Fast movement|Sudden Leap
Uncanny dodge|Warblade Class Feature
Trap sense|Divine Grace
Damage reduction|Roots of the Mountain stance
Indomitable will|Divine Grace, good will save as Divine Crusader[/table]

The only thing completely missing is Improved Uncanny Dodge.

The Character

Erlkoneg began life as a simple hunter of the wild lands, more at home with beasts and fey than with men, but he grew into a champion of all who prefer to hunt in the wilderness. Civilization is fine for those who want it, of course, but it ought not to encroach on those who don't. Every man has a right to leave his fellows, take up the spear, live by his own wits and strength, and not be followed.

The Bastard Alto

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Once he was an understudy.
But understudies are but a shadow.
A shadow rarely ever seen.

The Understudy rises only when the lead falls.
No fall is greater then death.
Nor so easily exposed.

Later an outcast
But the world is a stage
The world is a battlefield.

Let them fear the coming of the song.
Ask he who lies dead if my performance was subpar.
Ask she who is widowed, if my voice was without passion.

The voice is hate, and screams make great backing vocals.

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Cast Notes

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Human
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st|Bard 1|

+0

|

+0

|

+2

|

+2

|Jump 4, P. Sing 4, Diplomacy 4, UMD 4, K. Planes 4, Intimidate 4, K. Local 4, K. Nature 4|Thrall to Demon, Combat Expertise|Inspire Courage, B. Knowledge, Countersong, Fascinate

2nd|Fighter 1|

+1

|

+2

|

+2

|

+2

|P. Sing 5, Jump 5, UMD 4.5|EWP Bastard Sword|

3rd|Fighter 2|

+3

|

+3

|

+2

|

+2

|P. Sing 6, Jump 6, UMD 5|WF Bastard Sword, Power Attack|

4th|Fighter 3|

+3

|

+3

|

+3

|

+3

|P. Sing 7, Jump 7, UMD 5.5||

5th|Fighter 4|

+4

|

+4

|

+3

|

+3

|P. Sing 8, Jump 8, UMD 6|Improved Bull Rush|

6th|Warchanter 1|

+5

|

+6

|

+3

|

+3

|P. Sing 9, Jump 9, UMD 8|Leap Attack|Inspire Toughness, Warchanter Music

7th|Warchanter 2|

+6

|

+7

|

+3

|

+3

|P. Sing 10, Jump 10, UMD 10||

8th|Warchanter 3|

+7

|

+7

|

+4

|

+4

|P. Sing 11, Jump 11, UMD 11, Intimidate 6||Inspire Recklessness

9th|Ronin 1|

+8

|

+9

|

+4

|

+4

|Intimidate 10|Shocktrooper|Infamy, Sneak Attack 1d6

10th|Ronin 2|

+9

|

+10

|

+4

|

+4

|Intimidate 12, Jump 12||Bonzai Charge

11th|Warchanter 4|

+10

|

+11

|

+4

|

+4

|P. Sing 12, Jump 13, UMD 12||

12th|Warchanter 5|

+11

|

+11

|

+5

|

+5

|P. Sing 13, Jump 14, UMD 13|Evil Brand|Combine Songs

13th|Warchanter 6|

+12

|

+12

|

+5

|

+5

|P. Sing 14, Jump 15, UMD 14||

14th|Warchanter 7|

+13

|

+12

|

+5

|

+5

|P. Sing 15, Jump 16, UMD 15||Inspire Awe

15th|Warchanter 8|

+14

|

+13

|

+6

|

+6

|P. Sing 16, Jump 17, UMD 16|Abyss Bound Soul:Baphomet|Singing Shout

16th|Warchanter 9|

+15

|

+13

|

+6

|

+6

|P. Sing 17, Jump 18, UMD 17||

17th|Warchanter 10|

+16

|

+13

|

+6

|

+6

|P. Sing 18, Jump 19, UMD 18||Inspire Legion

18th|Binder 1|

+16

|

+15

|

+6

|

+8

|UMD 19, Intimidate 16|Improved Binding|Soul Binding (1 Vestige)

19th|Binder 2|

+17

|

+16

|

+6

|

+9

|UMD 20, Intimidate 20||Pact Augmentation, Suppress Sign

20th|Binder 3|

+18

|

+16

|

+7

|

+9

|UMD 21, Intimidate 23, Diplomacy 5||[/table]

Tactics and Explanation

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The Bastard Alto is an emotion based charger build. Instead of channeling his emotions through berserker rage or frenzy, he channels them through song, bringing the hatred to both himself and his allies.

His most important musics are Inspire Recklessness and Inspire Legion. Inspire Legion lets his group and all of their allies have the BAB of the highest BAB group member, making even leadership minions and familiars useful for something.

Inspire Recklessness lets himself or an ally sacrifice defenses to gain a bonus to hit. This is used in concert with Bonzai Charge, Power Attack / Shock Trooper, and a wand of Lion's Charge.

During a charge the Bastard can get:
+20 Attack for -20 AC
+20 Damage for -20 AC
+60 Damage for -20 AC

Thanks to his devotion to Baphomet all charging damage is doubled, or tripled when using a Valorous Bastard Sword.

But how does somebody survive with a -60 penalty to AC? The answer? Stepping on the little people.

As a Binder the Bastard can bind Delhver-Nar, gaining an at will forced share pain ability. While the ability may be used on opponents, it is often easier to use it on allies, or the weak. When fighting paladins the Innocent are the best shield. But for the murderous opera singer on the go, few things can beat a Bandoleer of Kittens.

In addition to the getting all reckless and killing things bit of the Barbarian, the Alto can also use his songs to get temporary hit points, yell at people and be scary, or even increase the strength of all of his allies.

Sources:
Warchanter: Complete Warrior
Ronin: Complete Warrior
Binder: Tome of Magic
Thrall to Demon: Fiendish Codex 1
Leap Attack: Complete Adventurer
Shocktrooper: Complete Warrior
Evil Brand: Fiendish Codex 1
Abyss Bound Soul: Fiendish Codex 1
Improved Binding: Fiendish Codex 1
Valorous: Unapproachable East
Lion's Charge: Spell Compendium

[Sewercop]

snap.. I forgot about this.

Builds look good, well done.
I had a build sketched out but forgot to finish it.

good luck to the judges

[motoko's ghost]

Speaking of the judges, I know Kuulvheysoon, The Underlord and Mattie_p are judging right?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Aye, but I've got a busy weekend.

Y'all can expect to see results mid- next week.

[The Gilded Duke]

Any updates on judging?

[mattie_p]

I was going to post some questions today. I need clarification on a couple of points, but I lost my notes so I need to re-create them. I'll have my questions posted in a few hours, once I get feedback I think I can post my final results.

Please respond to questions, if it involves your entry, via PM to motoko's ghost, he can post the answers anonymously.

[mattie_p]

Questions for Rager of Codicius:

What sourcebook did you use for Codicius? I'm afraid I can't find an official reference for that deity.

What domain did you select as a divine crusader?

EDIT: I'm basically done judging once these are answered.

[motoko's ghost]

Questions for Rager of Codicius:

What sourcebook did you use for Codicius? I'm afraid I can't find an official reference for that deity.

What domain did you select as a divine crusader?

EDIT: I'm basically done judging once these are answered.

Codicius if I recall correctly was a British war god and judging from the fact he gets righteous might at 5thlv and greater visage of the deity it could be Mysticism(SC) or Competition(SC)

EDIT: this is just me rattling my bonebox though, I haven't actually heard back about it

[mattie_p]

Codicius if I recall correctly was a British war god and judging from the fact he gets righteous might at 5thlv and greater visage of the deity it could be Mysticism(SC) or Competition(SC)

EDIT: this is just me rattling my bonebox though, I haven't actually heard back about it

Yes, that is what my research indicated regarding Codicius. Codicius equates to mars/ares, who is statted out in Deities and Demigods (incidentally, with halfspear as favored weapon. Neither animal nor mysticism/competition domains apply to ares, though. Ares gets chaos, destruction, evil, and war.). Further research indicates Codicius is apparently statted in a pathfinder bestiary, which I don't have access to and is outside of the scope of this contest, regardless. One (homebrew) Codicius with animal and competition domains can be found within this very forum here. But homebrew is homebrew.

Anyway, if the rager wishes to respond, I am willing to adjust my scores, but I think that I am ready to post my scores. Here goes:

Rager of Cocidius

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Innovation: Did not expect to see a divine "barbarian." Paladin and Divine Crusader were both unexpected (+.5). I agree that your spells and feats all stack for +16 str, nice trick. (+.5) However, it just seems "boring." Sorry I can't define that better (-.25)

3.75

Power: I don't know your starting stats, but all those CHA based abilities are going to affect your point buy, forcing you to spend there instead of your physical stats(-.25). Animal Devotion is 1/day for +8 str for 1 minute (10 rounds), unless you burn turn attempts to fuel it, which you won't because you are quickening spells. Although it is a nifty trick in a pinch, 1/day for 10 rounds is insufficient compared to a normal barbarian of 6/day before getting the extra rage feat (-.25). +16 strength is nice (+.5), but it takes 1 round + a quickened spell to come into full effect (-.25) However, sudden leap essentially gets you pounce, assuming you have enough ranks in jump to make it worth your while. (+.25)

3

Elegence: Does not qualify for divine crusader at the level taken, qualifies one level later (-.25). You take Able Learner and Nymph's Kiss, but don't describe the skills you buy other than "wilderness scout" (-.25) Spontaneous healer seems out of character, as well as useless? Do you have cure spells on your class spell list other than paladin (Remember Divine Crusader only gets one domain as their spell list, and your domain is either Competition or Mysticism based on greater visage)? (-.25). Also, while I found Cocidius, I can't find him statted in a 3.5 source book (-.25) He would have to have Animal + (Competition or Mysticism) domains. Quicken + DMM Quicken, while essential to get your "rage" up in a hurry, seem like wasted feats though.(-.25)

1.75

Fluff: Meets the minimal criteria for length. Not really exciting though. Why is he devoted to apes? Cocidius grants him spells, not only is he a paladin of Cocidius but also a divine crusader? Why Cocidius? Answering those questions would have gotten a bonus, instead I'm wondering what is going on (-.5)

2.5

Ingredient: "Rage" only really gets going late, and then only a couple of times per day. Unless you have an extraordinarily massive CHA score, you don't get enough bonus spell slots or turn attempts to get rage going more than twice a day, and even then it takes more than a round to come into full effect. A "vanilla" barbarian can rage 6 times a day as a free action. Just doesn't really feel like a barbarian to me (-1). You do make an effort to go after other class features, though, which I like. (+.5)

2.5

Total score: 13.5

The Bastard Alto

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Innovation: Fighter was expected (-.25) Bard was not, Ronin was not, and neither was Warchanter (+.75) Love your trick for stacking boosts to hit/damage by sacrificing AC (+.75). And share pain through Binding is nice while your AC is down. (+.25)

4.5

Power: Yep, you got it. UMD is high enough to consistently use your Lion's Charge wand, so you can get 4 attacks on your charge at some extremely high bonuses. You blow a regular barbarian out of the water, and it is on as often as you want it (+1). Leap attack, shocktrooper, yes, expected, but yes, way beneficial and powerful. (+.5) Abyssally Bound to Baphomet was new to me, and holy crap! (+.5) Very feat intensive to pull off, though, and comes on-line late (-.25)

4.75

Elegance: One minor note, not worth a deduction IMO, the penalties to your AC cannot exceed your BAB for Banzai charge, inspire recklessness, and shock trooper. I know why you have binder 3, and you get bonuses for it elsewhere, but doesn't really scream "barbarian" like the rest of your build. Also, you don't really need improved binding, except to get Dahlver-nar a little earlier (-.25) Banzai charge from Ronin is sweet, and got you bonuses elsewhere for it, but without supporting story it seems tacked on for the sake of power, without flowing from within your character(-.25) All pre-reqs were met, though, and bard-fighter-warchanter really flows well (+.5)

3

Fluff: While not technically part of your official fluff, a bandolier of kittens is awesome enough to merit an award. (+.25) I would have liked to see an explanation of how you were exiled or fled from service per Ronin Special Prerequisite (-.25). Your story was nice, I have to give some credit for the poetic form and its appropriateness (+.5)

3.5

Ingredient: A screaming guy, who by screaming not only inspires himself, but his allies, into "rage"? (+.5) An ubercharger, who deals an incredible amount of damage per round? (+.25) And who gets damage reduction by sacrificing poor innocent kitties? Heck yes! (+.5) UMD seems atypical. I know why you have it, but it doesn't seem barbarian-like to get pounce via a wand. (-.25). You also don't make much effort to go after other class features (-.25).

3.75

Total score: 19.5

[Kuulvheysoon]

Alright guys, sorry for the late judging.

Let's get right down to it.

My Judging Criteria

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Innovation: How innovative is the build? Points will be deducted for common fixes (such as a Swordsage for Monk) or stunningly obvious choices (such as Frenzied Berserker for Barbarian).

Power: Power relative to straight Barbarian and in its own right.

Fluff: Your backstory, as well as how it matches up to your classes/feat/skills.

Elegance: How the build flows, penalties will be awarded for 1/2 level dips (exceptions exist), flaws, etc... Rules comments go in here as well.

Ingredient: How well do you fill the role that the Barbarian would fill? How many of his iconic abilities do you have a counterpart to?

The Rager of Cocidius - 13

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Innovation: I’ll admit, I did not expect to see Paladin (of Freedom) or Divine Crusader, although Ranger and Warblade were expected, as was human. 3.75

Power: You’re a primary melee character, and you show off your chops with full itinerant attacks (BAB +17) and Power Attack, although it comes in late. Unfortunately, a lot of your power depends on expending Turn Undead uses to power Animal Devotion and DMM (Quicken), and given how we’re not given a Cha score and you’re missing Extra Turning (and no mention of possible Nightstick cheese!), I’m going to have to assume about 6 TU uses a day (Cha of 18), which translates to 3 uses of Animal Devotion and a single quickened spell. And what are your skills? For all I know, you could have taken Survival, Knowledge (Nature) and Profession (Oldest). Ninth level spells, though, which is impressive (although I have no idea what your spell is) 1.75

Fluff: Simple, and you mentioned the spear (relating to your WF feat), but no mention of Divine Crusader (or of religion at all, which is weird, because you took not one, but 2 classes/PrCs tied directly to religion AKA divine magic), and no mention of advanced training for Warblade. Spontaneous Healer seems really tacked on and has no reason for being there. 1.75

Elegance: Lack of skill points, illegal entry into Divine Crusader (note the BAB requirement), main trick useable an unknown amount of times and no source for your deity. On the other hand, the build is fairly straight forward, minus the ranger dip for skills at first, and you even fill out a full PrC. 2

Ingredient: You’ve got nearly all of a Barbarian’s iconic abilities, though usable less often than a vanilla barbarian would have access to (6 rages/day, compared to 3 uses/day Animal Devotion, as assumed above). I’d argue that sudden leap =/= fast movement, as there are some major differences between the two (speed in medium/heavy armor, for instance). You theoretically surpass trap sense with Divine Grace, but again, with no idea of your Cha score, I can’t mark you as high as I’d like. Roots of the Mountain Stance only applies when not moving more than 5ft in a single round, and is inferior to a vanilla Barbarian’s DR/-. 3.75

The Bastard Alto – 17.25

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Innovation: A bard/warchanter? Definitely not expecting that, nor was I expecting one sworn to serve a demon lord. 4

Power: Alright, we’ve got (early) access to Power Attack and a BAB of +18, along with Leap Attack, Shocktrooper and Banzai Charge and Baphomet’s bound abilities. Bringing your allies up to your own BAB (likely the highest in your group) is also pretty handy. Binding Dahlver-Nah for the shared Pain is a pretty neat trick here. 4.5

Fluff: Although a little on the light side, it was appropriate. No mention of Baphomet or Ronin in your backstory, though, and that’s the origin of most of your tricks. 2.5

Elegance: You take Warchanter to 10, and even your ‘dip’ into bard is later completely justified with warchanter. Binder, however, seems a bit tacked on. No mention of a use for that maxed out Intimidate, though. Note that Banzai Charge, Inspire recklessness and Shocktroopercannot exceed your BAB. 3.25

Ingredient: You don’t even try to grab the Barbarian’s most notable ability – Rage. The ability to get tougher as the going gets harder isn’t exactly exemplified by giving up your defenses (though the bonus to hit/damage is noted). You’ve got the ‘damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead’ mindset exactly right though (-56 to AC in exchange for +18 to hit and +78 to damage), and Pouncebarian is a staple these days, though nabbing it from a wand is a little... untraditional, to say the least. You make no attempt to replicate the Barbarians’ other features, either. 3

[mattie_p]

Nice judging, Kuulvheysoon. Two judges in the hopper. Do we have one more? Or is that a wrap?

I kinda wish there had been more entries this round. I had a bunch of ideas for barbarian but decided early on to judge instead. Surprised there wasn't a totem rager, druidic avenger (obvious though) half-orc paragon (gets actual rage), etc. Psionics could have been interesting as well, expansion gets you str bonuses in a similar fashion, though more cerebral. I'll almost certainly enter next time as a competitor.

[The Gilded Duke]

For a while I was considering a sort of Calmomancer? Who gains powers by being really calm and peaceful, but works mechanically similar to barbarian rage. Nothing really seemed to work out powerfully for melee. From what I remember there was:

Combat Focus feats PHB II
Draconic Prophecy Magic of Eberron
Some sorta Dream State thing Secrets of Sarlonna
Psionic Focus
and I think one more.

Was also considering some sort of Drunken Master, maybe with a psionics dip to Hustle and drink as a swift action.

[mattie_p]

Drunken Master would have been fun. I confess if I built one I'd have been heavily influenced by the IC competition on that PrC. Plus I didn't think of it til you mentioned it. Dervish could have been interesting, although heavy feat tax to enter it.

[motoko's ghost]

Nice judging, Kuulvheysoon. Two judges in the hopper. Do we have one more? Or is that a wrap?

I dunno, The_underlord said he might also judge, So we'll see, he doesn't have too if he doesn't want to, I'm ready to call this soon too.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I dunno, The_underlord said he might also judge, So we'll see, he doesn't have too if he doesn't want to, I'm ready to call this soon too.

Maybe for the nest one impose a time limit on judging - by X date or first judging?

[The Underlord]

Honestly, my judgeing would probably end up the same as the other judges, so you can call it.

[motoko's ghost]

Alright then, if my highly complex calculations are correct the winner is;

The Bastard Alto with 36.75 points with second place going to The Rager of Cocidius with 26.5 points
Congratulations!


I'll have the next contest posted up ASAP

[mattie_p]

So who built what? We need to congratulate winners in person, and although I suspect The Bastard Alto was built by The Gilded Duke, who built Rager?

[The Gilded Duke]

Since the contest is over, yeah the bastard alto was me.

[motoko's ghost]

So who built what? We need to congratulate winners in person, and although I suspect The Bastard Alto was built by The Gilded Duke, who built Rager?

Sorry slipped my mind, I'm not too alert at the moment. Yes the Bastard Alto was The Gilded Duke and the Rager of Cocidius was by Dspeyer

EDIT: PS new contest is here

[mattie_p]

Hey, congrats to both of you! I really enjoyed my first round of judging. It was a different kind of fun from doing the building myself, but very entertaining. Wish everyone luck in warlock!