Roleplaying systems

[Saage]

Hi there!
I'm sort of new to pen and paper rpgs, and as I can see there are a lot of systems for that:

D&D, Pathfinder, GURPS, D20, SRD and seemingly many others, let alone universes, Faerun, WH and other stuff.

Why would people need this many systems? Are they totally different or they have something in common?

[Kalirren]

Most of the ones you've mentioned are basically different editions of a single line of d20 systems, actually. One d20 system plays much like another. They all exist as different things because of organizational reasons and money/IP, not for any actual reason related to their use in games.

IMO, sooner or later one of these D&D wikis is just going to get the critical mass and become the last "edition" (really, the first collaboratively written, playtested, and revised edition) of 3.X.

Systems like Shadowrun, White Wolf's d10, Legend of the 5 Rings, Synapse, are actually fundamentally different from the d20 line. Their different basic trait descriptions and resolution mechanics make them more useful for different play emphases. It makes sense to talk about their strengths and weaknesses for different types of games/gaming groups.

[Saage]

Okay, so which of them are the most popular?
And what does term "Gestalt" mean? I see it sometimes in PbP forum.

[Kalirren]

D&D 3.5 is by far the most popular system for Western fantasy roleplaying, basically having come onto the market under the Open Gaming License at the same time as the Internet was undergoing exponential growth. I would estimate that 3.5 and its immediate derivatives (Pathfinder, Tome) account for over 90% of all games played on the internet.

Gestalt character creation is explained here.

[Arbane]

Why would people need this many systems? Are they totally different or they have something in common?

Well, they all have SOME things in common - they have multiple players, one GM, and most of them use rolling dice to figure out what's going on.

There's a bunch of reasons for all the different rules-sets. One is that people just don't _like_ the sort of results they get from one set of rules. Another would be that they're trying to imitate a specific genre, and existing systems don't do that to their satisfaction. (Trying to play a 'modern' game in D&D 4th, for example - the fact that most PCs fight like one-man armies who can absorb enough bullets to wreck a tank kind of snaps the old disbelief-suspenders.)

[TheOOB]

Well, they all have SOME things in common - they have multiple players, one GM, and most of them use rolling dice to figure out what's going on.

If you get really out there in the indie circle those are not even sure things.

As a general rule, each RPG system is designed to do something. D&D, for example, does Heroic High Fantasy with a focus on tactical combat. World of Darkness, on the other hand, does Modern Gothic with a focus on social manipulation and politics.

In general, systems differ in two fronts. The first is setting. A japanese myth based setting(Legend of the Five Rings), feels different than a superhero setting(Mutants and Masterminds). The second is mechanics. D&D, as mentioned, encourages tactical combat and used a class and level based system. In Paranoia the system encourages total chaos and silliness, which is part of the point.

There are a few systems, such as GURPS, that try to do everything, but personally I'm not a fan. The trick is to use the right system for the game you want to play.

[Larkas]

Hi there!
I'm sort of new to pen and paper rpgs, and as I can see there are a lot of systems for that:

D&D, Pathfinder, GURPS, D20, SRD and seemingly many others, let alone universes, Faerun, WH and other stuff.

Why would people need this many systems? Are they totally different or they have something in common?

Okay, so which of them are the most popular?
And what does term "Gestalt" mean? I see it sometimes in PbP forum.

Let me at least try to address your most immediate concerns.

--On systems--

From your posts, the only systems you really presented were D&D, Pathfinder and GURPS, with d20 being a catch-all expression.

D&D, or Dungeons & Dragons, was the first RPG ever, and is, to date, the most popular and influential system in the genre. It is geared towards high-fantasy games, which means it is great for adventures involving knightly crusades and dragon-slaying quests. It is moderately simple and easy to learn, though this simplicity has fluctuated greatly during its publication history. D&D is actually multiple systems, or editions, all derived from the game developed by Gary Gygax. Think of it like software versions: each is an attempt to improve on the last. Currently, the most recent edition is 4th, though 5th is already in the making, and playtests are ongoing. The most played version is arguably 3rd edition and its revision (3.5), since a lot of people didn't like what was done in the 4th.

Pathfinder was born out of that dissension. Some people thought 3.5 was nice enough and just needed some polishing. They revised it and released Pathfinder. It is pretty much the same game, with just some minor, though important revisions. Both can be used for the same types of games, and are indeed compatible: you can play a Pathfinder game with material from 3.5 with little to no trouble, and the other way around is also true. 3.5 has lots of published books, but Pathfinder is ongoing, and has lots of support from its publisher.

GURPS is a pretty modular system, with rules representing how well you can design a spaceship all the way to how much time you can hold your breath. You wouldn't, and shouldn't, use all rules at once. This modularity makes it suitable to many different styles of game, from sci-fi futuristic scenarios to a stone age, fire-discovering campaign, though arguably it also makes the system harder to learn. It is a classless, leveless system, which means your character won't necessarily get stronger by beating big monsters with a stick. It also has undergone many revisions, and, AFAIK, its currently in its 3rd edition.

d20 is a term used to describe all systems that use a 20-sided die extensively to do something, such as seeing if your attack to a creature connected and if you can swim well enough to not drown in your full plate while in the water. Most also have some other things in common, such as classes and levels (as pointed out by TheOOB), and the same set of attributes (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma).

--On Misc.--

SRD means System Reference Document, which means a set of rules free and available on the internet for everyone to see. D&D 3.5 has them, as does Pathfinder. If you want to know more about this, search for Open Gaming License.

Gestalt is a way to advance characters in two classes at once, available in D&D 3.5 (and, by extension, in Pathfinder). I really don't recommend playing such a game if you have no experience with the system.

--On Worlds--

Faerûn is the world from the Forgotten Realms campaign setting. Each world has something that sets them apart from the others, and using, or not using, such a world is just a flavor decision made by the DM (Dungeon Master, the guy that tells the story).

---

Like said before, you are just scratching the surface of the PnP RPG world. You can't really understand it all without some actual playing. I recommend playing a game in a simple and largely explored system, such as D&D 3.5, to get a feel for things. From there, you can expand your horizons. But before that, you can only have encyclopedic knowledge -- to which I point you towards Wikipedia, since it has lots and lots of information on all these topics you asked about

[Arbane]

Since you did ask, I should mention:

Next to D&D and its many, MANY variations, the Storyteller/Storytelling System used by White Wolf's assorted games is probably the next most popular system. It uses mainly d10s - most die-rolls are rolling 1-10 ten-sided dice and picking through them for numbers over a certain threshold. It's VERY different from D&D.

After that, I'm not sure which would be in 3rd place - GURPS, FATE, or BRP, most likely.

[erikun]

D&D, Pathfinder, D20, SRD

These four are basically the same thing.


A lot of the reasons for multiple game systems is that one system rarely works well for everything. Many people who have tried creating a "D&D in the modern setting" - including some d20 Modern players - haven't liked how it has turned out. Other game systems are, simply put, far better at playing this sort of game.

Conversely, there are systems that are primarily played for their atmosphere and setting. Most people probably do not play Shadowrun or Exalted for the prospect of rolling large handfuls of dice - they typically play to play Shadowrun or Exalted, and the mechanics help frame the way the game plays.

And finally, "universal" or "general" systems usually don't work, or don't work as well as they look on paper. Beyond the fact that some people just may not like the system, such a system would generally require either making all mechanical choices similar (which can dissuade those who like unique mechanics) or require so much material to cover everything that its sheer size turns some players off. About the only other option would be asking the GM to build the necessary mechanics themselves - a very labor-intensive option for the most labor-intensive job in roleplaying.

[Sampi]

Well, they all have SOME things in common - they have multiple players, one GM, and most of them use rolling dice to figure out what's going on.

For the record, I've broken all of these in a single session of D&D 3,5.

For the actual OP: Larkas did a pretty good job of answering most of your questions. One correction/nitpick: GURPS is in the 4th edition now. The change was a big one too, but generally regarded as a good one.

Then, onto the main question of needing many systems: Systems by themselves are ways to represent a common concept of gaming reality in a way that the players (and GM/DM) agree upon. After all, ropleplaying is just glorified makebelieve with structure added. The system and rules are part of that structure.

Why so many, then?

A lot of these systems are written with different things in mind. For exaple, the different variations of Dungeons & Dragons are systems to (mostly) facilitate sword&sorcery-type heroic games, which focus a lot on combat against fantastic monsters. The WoD storytelling systems are more about character interactions, but they also focus a lot on different weird powers. Exalted is a system for EPIC fantasy gaming, fighting gods and philosophical demons. GURPS tries to do all these things and more (the name is an acronym of Generic Universal RolePlaying System), and somewhat succeds in that mission, although at the cost of adding a huge amount of complexity. This list goes on and on.

Also, many systems are written for one particular setting or world (e.g. Warhammer FRP, Paranoia, Exalted, WoD games). These omit generic rules for world-specific ones, and thus gain in versimilitude what they lose in flexibility.

People have gone on and on to doctorate degrees about this subject, so I'll stop around here and say: these are all different games in the same genre.

Then again, you might actually be asking which game YOU should get into. That question is best answered by asking yourself what do you want to play? Find a game that interests you, ask questions about that one, maybe read a rulebook, and most importantly try it out. I''m sure you can find a PbP group here or another forum to get into the feel of things.

[Knaight]

Well, they all have SOME things in common - they have multiple players, one GM, and most of them use rolling dice to figure out what's going on.

That's not actually true, unless you refer specifically to the subset noted in the OP. The GM role is non-universal, in both the Fiasco style where there simply isn't a GM and the Shock: Social Science Fiction way in which there is a temporary GM role, where one player might be a GM for all space battles, and another might be a GM for all romantic scenes, and another a GM for all negotiations. So on and so forth.

Regarding the OP: As for there being many different systems: There are differences, and each produces a (sometimes slightly) different spectrum of experience. It's much like any other form of art - there are a lot of novels, a lot of paintings, a lot of sculptures. One has to have experience with a few before they can really understand what works for them.

[TheOOB]

Hmm, I'm imagining an RPG system where no one knows who the GM is, I think that could be amusing *goes to his crazed fevered notes*

[eggs]

It doesn't make sense to run a detective game in a system where the entire investigation is reduced to one roll. Or to run a game about political intrigue in a system that revolves around grid-based combat.

Plus different systems mean different takes on the various aspects of the game - what the role of a player is, what a GM should be, what should constitute character-building, what role the story should have in conflict resolution, etc.

And in the most basic sense, the different engines encourage different paradigms of the fiction. For instance, d20's big dice, binary success mechanic, and complex bonus/penalty systems encourage very serious mechanically-minded system-fiddling to make sure that eg. a specialist surgeon doesn't accidentally kill his tonsillectomy patients on a regular basis.

[Jay R]

Why would people need this many systems? Are they totally different or they have something in common?

Go to a restaurant, and look at a menu. Why would people need that many meal choices?

Go look on the roads. Why would people need so many makes and models of cars?

Then go to a library. Why would people need so many books?

But enough.

As soon as D&D showed that role-playing games could make money, other people wanted to make money that way too. Yes, they are different; yes, different people like different games.

For now, don't try to absorb the entire industry. It won't help you have fun playing your first one. Pick a game to try.

Ideally, find some people already playing a game and start with them, using the system they're using.

Six months from now, you'll know what aspects of that game you enjoy, and which ones you don't. Then people can help you find another system you might like.

But play one game first.

[Saage]

Thanks for all the responses!
I guess it all does make sense.

[Devils_Advocate]

The short answer is that roleplayers don't actually need the large collection of RPG systems available, but they do want them, due to connoisseurship.

In general, systems differ in two fronts. The first is setting. The second is mechanics.

I had thought that "system" was a term for a roleplaying game's collection of game mechanics in particular, excluding setting.

[Geostationary]

I had thought that "system" was a term for a roleplaying game's collection of game mechanics in particular, excluding setting.

In the strictest sense, yes, this is true. However, in some systems the setting may be intertwined with the mechanics to varying degrees, making them hard to pull apart. A good example of this symbiosis is Exalted.

The short answer is that roleplayers don't actually need the large collection of RPG systems available, but they do want them, due to connoisseurship.

Again, technically true, however the reason isn't connoisseurship. It's that some systems handle certain scenarios, genres, or playstyles better than others. Nobilis and D&D are both perfectly good systems, but there's no way I'd be able to run the type of game I can easily play in Nobilis with D&D or vice versa. The same goes with systems like nWoD, Don't Rest Your Head, or any other you may care to mention- they each have their own strengths and weaknesses making each suited to different tasks. All of them tell stories, but they don't all go about it the same way.