Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 62
  1. - Top - End - #31
    Troll in the Playground
     
    gooddragon1's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    In the playground

    Default Re: Buckler & Bow: Reasoning

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonely Tylenol View Post
    OK, then. Let's try this again from a different angle.

    "Not gaining a bonus" =/= "incurring a penalty".

    The first line of the quoted text carves out an explicit exemption for bows and crossbows... To the -1 penalty to attack rolls, because that is a penalty.

    What it does not do, however, is exempt the bow and crossbow from the last sentence of the paragraph, because "you don't get the bonus AC" is not a penalty. It's a qualifier for a bonus that you don't meet... Which you explicitly don't meet because all bows, regardless of size, are wielded in two hands.
    Not quite. It does two things, firstly it does what you stated with the penalty. The other thing it does is show that using a bow or crossbow doesn't count as using the hand for an off hand weapon or to assist for the purpose of the buckler. That is why the last part doesn't apply with the AC loss.

    Also, note that I am not "after" you. I'm a bit frustrated with Jack though.
    There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    deuxhero's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Fl

    Default Re: Buckler & Bow: Reasoning

    Note you only lose the Buckler's Shield bonus to AC (a mere 1). Your enchantments (both special and Enchantment bonus) are kept. If some special material that a buckler could be made out of gave a special benefit, you would keep that too.
    Last edited by deuxhero; 2012-05-28 at 06:09 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    May 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Buckler & Bow: Reasoning

    I honestly don't see the argument for not allowing the bonus while using a bow. It was obviously intended for that sole purpose and I'd say the wording is pretty clear. Whats the point of saying you can use a bow if you wouldn't get the bonus from the buckler to begin with?

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2010

    Default Re: Buckler & Bow: Reasoning

    Quote Originally Posted by invaderk2 View Post
    I honestly don't see the argument for not allowing the bonus while using a bow. It was obviously intended for that sole purpose and I'd say the wording is pretty clear. Whats the point of saying you can use a bow if you wouldn't get the bonus from the buckler to begin with?
    I believe the idea is that blocking with a shield requires a specific blocking technique to be effective, which cannot be performed while firing a weapon as the motion needed to fire a bow/crossbow is completely different than a blocking stance.

    The buckler seems to be meant either for holding a ranged weapon but choosing to go defensive (for whatever reason) or for those who fire a ranged weapon then switch to a melee weapon without having to take the time to equip a shield. You could also take a -2 to fire a light crossbow one handed while defending with a buckler, not that you would ever want to.
    Last edited by Deadlights; 2012-05-28 at 07:58 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    May 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Buckler & Bow: Reasoning

    I wouldn't totally disagree but watch someone fighting with a regular shield and sword. Generally you're not blocking with a shield when you're swinging a sword. You swing and then bring the shield back to a defensive position until you swing again. And yes you can maintain a blocking position with a shield while attacking and there are even some styles that promote fighting that way but not all of them.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2010

    Default Re: Buckler & Bow: Reasoning

    Quote Originally Posted by invaderk2 View Post
    I wouldn't totally disagree but watch someone fighting with a regular shield and sword. Generally you're not blocking with a shield when you're swinging a sword. You swing and then bring the shield back to a defensive position until you swing again. And yes you can maintain a blocking position with a shield while attacking and there are even some styles that promote fighting that way but not all of them.
    I don't disagree with you, I am mostly playing devil's advocate.

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    May 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Buckler & Bow: Reasoning

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlights View Post
    I don't disagree with you, I am mostly playing devil's advocate.
    All I read was "I work for the devil" LOL

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Buckler & Bow: Reasoning

    Quote Originally Posted by deuxhero View Post
    Note you only lose the Buckler's Shield bonus to AC (a mere 1). Your enchantments (both special and Enchantment bonus) are kept. If some special material that a buckler could be made out of gave a special benefit, you would keep that too.
    Unfortunately this is not the case; enhancement bonuses on armor are applied as part of the shield or armor bonus, and are denied when they are.

    It's funny, I started reading this thread fairly sure that bucklers should definitely work with bows, by RAW and RAI, but now I am no longer confident, and that makes me sad.

    Ah well, animated heavy shields to the rescue... again....
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    "Common sense" and "RAW" are not exactly on speaking terms
    Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.

    Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in"Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid"Use of gray may indicate nitpickingGreen is sincerity

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Meandering Around My Mind
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Buckler & Bow: Reasoning

    or just borrow Pathfinder rules and let it work. OMG, its so overpowerdz, now my ranger archer will winz all battlez!!!1!11!one

    oh wait... Wizards can use a mithril buckler at no penalty while casting spells, and they already break the game more thoroughly than anyone who actually cares about rules involving buckler and bow interactions.

    EDIT: oh, and I would prefer bending rules over animated shields, which are lame and completely unheroic. only pansies use animated shields.
    Last edited by Duncan_Ruadrik; 2012-05-29 at 06:59 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    deuxhero's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Fl

    Default Re: Buckler & Bow: Reasoning

    Quote Originally Posted by tuggyne View Post
    Unfortunately this is not the case; enhancement bonuses on armor are applied as part of the shield or armor bonus, and are denied when they are.

    It's funny, I started reading this thread fairly sure that bucklers should definitely work with bows, by RAW and RAI, but now I am no longer confident, and that makes me sad.

    Ah well, animated heavy shields to the rescue... again....
    You still keep your special enchantments.

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tyndmyr's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Buckler & Bow: Reasoning

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan_Ruadrik View Post
    sure, real world bucklers don't work like this. However, it was very common for archers to have a shield that exactly matches the description of the Buckler, as is in the CRB. Worn on the forearm, etc.

    In any case, it certainly isnt game breaking to allow it.
    This. It's remarkably common in modern day larping as well, for the same reasons. Little extra protection, not a big hindrance to archery. I've always just assumed this was legit.

    If you prefer the bracer option, dastana works exactly the same way for light armor, and even provides a shield bonus. Different look, same mechanical effect. Also, avoids any worries over RAW ridiculousness.
    Back from a lengthy vacation from Giantitp. I've been dabbling with 3d printer technology and game design, PM if you're curious.

    "World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimization."

    New: Tyndmyr has a game shop!

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Fitz10019's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Berwangen, Germany
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Buckler & Bow: Reasoning

    I asked about this ages ago in the RAW thread. Part of the answer was that "two-handed weapon" is specifically a melee weapon category. The main answer was that archers can use bucklers and they keep the AC without incurring attack penalties. I think that's RAW and RAI, but everyone's welcome to houserule as they wish.

  13. - Top - End - #43
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Ashtagon's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Buckler & Bow: Reasoning

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    This. It's remarkably common in modern day larping as well, for the same reasons. Little extra protection, not a big hindrance to archery. I've always just assumed this was legit.

    If you prefer the bracer option, dastana works exactly the same way for light armor, and even provides a shield bonus. Different look, same mechanical effect. Also, avoids any worries over RAW ridiculousness.
    Here's what WotC says dastana look like:

    http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/oa...ry/Dastana.jpg


    Curiously, outside of a single link, every single google hit that references dastana as armour is an RPG link. The one exception is the Met Museum. Annoyingly, that link lacks any images. While it is identified as "armour", this is equally a museum of art, so it could simply have been a decorative piece.

    Is there any definite evidence that dastana were actual armour pieces, and not simply decoration or to protect against bow-strings?

  14. - Top - End - #44
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    May 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Buckler & Bow: Reasoning

    Last edited by Invader; 2012-05-29 at 06:33 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #45
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2010

    Default Re: Buckler & Bow: Reasoning

    I'm with GoodDragon on this one.

    Just thought I'd toss my two cents in.

  16. - Top - End - #46
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2011

    Default Re: Buckler & Bow: Reasoning

    It seems to me there are two debates here, one being whether it makes sense by RAW and one being whether it makes sense realistically.

    I'll deal with RAW first. Let's start by saying that it seems that everyone agrees that bows are treated as two handed weapons. So, looking at the buckler entry, it would seem to me that the phrase "in any case" starting the sixth sentence would imply that that sentence refers to a situation that is independent of anything that was mentioned before, thus meaning that although there is no attack roll penalty for bows, the mere fact that they are two-handed removes your AC bonus from the shield.

    I would probably let my players use get the AC bonus anyway, because archers need love, and also for this reason rebutting the realism argument: At first level through 5th level, archers will generally only fire one or two shots per six seconds. If we imagine that they are firing by basically pulling out an arrow and immediately shooting, it isn't such a stretch that within those six seconds they could also bring their buckler to bear. With rapid shot, they have specifically trained to fire faster, making them able to fire two shots in the time it would normally take to fire one (albeit at a penalty), so the same logic can be applied. Now then, it would seem this logic would not apply to iterative attacks. And you would be very, very wrong. At 6th level, this character is on-par with a bard who can enthrall and command a person through the power of music, a wizard who can make himself fly, a fighter who can hit things especially hard, and a monk who is immune to poison and whose every strike is magical. So, it is fair to say that a 6th level archer would have no trouble adding a second shot to his normal attack while standing mostly still, while still being able to use his shield arm to react to danger. Comparing them at higher levels gives the same result, only more amplified.

  17. - Top - End - #47
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Buckler & Bow: Reasoning

    In other threads there was likewise split opinions on whether "without penalty" means that you don't get the -1 ONLY or if you don't get the -1 AND don't lose AC when attacking. This article clarifies that you do lose the AC bonus when firing the bow: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20050210a (but you don't take the -1). The author is Skip Williams, one of the authors of the Player's Handbook.

    I believe there is a feat called improved buckler defense to get around this.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2012-05-29 at 07:59 PM.
    So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
    My 3.5e Rules Cheat Sheets: Normal, With Consolidated Skill System
    TOGC's 3.5e Spell/etc Cards: rpgnow / drivethru rpg
    Utilities: Magic Item Shop Generator (Req. MS Excel), Balanced Low Magic Item System
    Printable Cardstock Dungeon Tiles and other terrain stuff (100 MB)

  18. - Top - End - #48
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Metahuman1's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2011

    Default Re: Buckler & Bow: Reasoning

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    Yes, it's RAW legal. Have fun with it.

    I don't allow this in my campaigns though, because real-world bucklers don't work the way RAW says they work.
    I'm actually part of a foam fighters organization, and one off the dudes out there who's primarily a spear man (though he tends to use it in conjunction with a dagger or short sword.) as a shield about the size, maybe a touch bigger then, a traditional buckler that he keep's strapped to the upper arm of his primary weapon arm. When standing presenting his side it makes it almost impossible between that, the rest of the armor and the spear and short sword/dagger to get a clean shot at him with out taking one or more yourself.

    Having said that, with a very minor adjustment to it's angle and a bit of time for him to play with meleeing that way with secondary weapons, I have the utmost confidence he could do archery with the thing on. And thus I must beg to differ with a ruling that says you can't do this. (Particularly since, at the end of the day, after level five realism is a joke and you absolutely have to have every nice thing impregnable for what ever your doing if your not a full caster anyway.)
    "I Burn!"

  19. - Top - End - #49
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Griffon

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location

    Default Re: Buckler & Bow: Reasoning

    I take it that it's been long since errata'd that the "without penalty" only applies to the penalty from wielding the buckler itself, not to any other penalties such as non-proficiency with the weapon or circumstantial penalties?

  20. - Top - End - #50
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    May 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Buckler & Bow: Reasoning

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    In other threads there was likewise split opinions on whether "without penalty" means that you don't get the -1 ONLY or if you don't get the -1 AND don't lose AC when attacking. This article clarifies that you do lose the AC bonus when firing the bow: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20050210a (but you don't take the -1). The author is Skip Williams, one of the authors of the Player's Handbook.

    I believe there is a feat called improved buckler defense to get around this.
    Well I think this sums it up pretty well. I would have argued all day that you maintain the AC bonus while using a bow but I stand corrected.
    Last edited by Invader; 2012-05-29 at 08:45 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #51
    Troll in the Playground
     
    gooddragon1's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    In the playground

    Default Re: Buckler & Bow: Reasoning

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    In other threads there was likewise split opinions on whether "without penalty" means that you don't get the -1 ONLY or if you don't get the -1 AND don't lose AC when attacking. This article clarifies that you do lose the AC bonus when firing the bow: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20050210a (but you don't take the -1). The author is Skip Williams, one of the authors of the Player's Handbook.

    I believe there is a feat called improved buckler defense to get around this.
    Unless he published it as official errata it's not a rules change, it's his opinion. He may be one of the authors of the book, but the only way you change one of the rules of the books is by errata.

    EDIT: Also, I'd like to know whether or not he was the one who wrote that section because without clarification on that it's even more so his opinion.

    (Note that there are 2 other authors besides him)
    Last edited by gooddragon1; 2012-05-29 at 10:27 PM.
    There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.

  22. - Top - End - #52
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Buckler & Bow: Reasoning

    It's not an attempt at a rule change it's an interpretation of an existing rule that has been interpreted both ways.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2012-05-29 at 10:44 PM.
    So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
    My 3.5e Rules Cheat Sheets: Normal, With Consolidated Skill System
    TOGC's 3.5e Spell/etc Cards: rpgnow / drivethru rpg
    Utilities: Magic Item Shop Generator (Req. MS Excel), Balanced Low Magic Item System
    Printable Cardstock Dungeon Tiles and other terrain stuff (100 MB)

  23. - Top - End - #53
    Troll in the Playground
     
    gooddragon1's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    In the playground

    Default Re: Buckler & Bow: Reasoning

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    It's not an attempt at a rule change it's an interpretation of an existing rule that has been interpreted both ways.
    By one of the authors who may or may not have written it. The interpretation both ways is only because the authors wrote it poorly but as I have shown with a firm command of the English language it is quite clear what the actual meaning is.

    Thus, he would need errata to change the meaning as the meaning has been set clear.

    EDIT: Namfuak... they are 2h weapons. It doesn't matter. For the purpose of the buckler they are not treated as 2h weapons or anything that would cause them to lose AC. Read it carefully and it will become clear.

    EDIT2: In fact, I'd postulate that he wasn't certain enough about it either and had to make a judgement call while writing the article. Otherwise he'd have put at the bottom that he was the one who dealt with that particular section of the PHB and that this statement clarified his intent.
    Last edited by gooddragon1; 2012-05-29 at 11:16 PM.
    There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.

  24. - Top - End - #54
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Ashtagon's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Buckler & Bow: Reasoning

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    I'm actually part of a foam fighters organization, and one off the dudes out there who's primarily a spear man (though he tends to use it in conjunction with a dagger or short sword.) as a shield about the size, maybe a touch bigger then, a traditional buckler that he keep's strapped to the upper arm of his primary weapon arm. When standing presenting his side it makes it almost impossible between that, the rest of the armor and the spear and short sword/dagger to get a clean shot at him with out taking one or more yourself.

    Having said that, with a very minor adjustment to it's angle and a bit of time for him to play with meleeing that way with secondary weapons, I have the utmost confidence he could do archery with the thing on. And thus I must beg to differ with a ruling that says you can't do this.
    I personally regard LARP and padded weapon fighting in general (which is what I think you are referring to) to have as much to do with real combat as, say, modern tournament fencing or kendo.

    As a basic example, the draw weight of a LARPing bow is generally limited to no more than 25 lb, generally fight at short range, and they must use arrows with peculiar heads (link). Historical combat archery used bows with typically 70 lb and upwards draw weights and ranges of 220 yards. Longbows and jelly bows feel very different when drawn.

    (Particularly since, at the end of the day, after level five realism is a joke and you absolutely have to have every nice thing impregnable for what ever your doing if your not a full caster anyway.)
    This is an entirely separate issue.

  25. - Top - End - #55
    Troll in the Playground
     
    gooddragon1's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    In the playground

    Default Re: Buckler & Bow: Reasoning

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    This is an entirely separate issue.
    Jade Archer
    There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.

  26. - Top - End - #56
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Ashtagon's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Buckler & Bow: Reasoning

    Quote Originally Posted by gooddragon1 View Post
    I see your jade archer and raise you one lightning warrior.

  27. - Top - End - #57
    Troll in the Playground
     
    gooddragon1's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    In the playground

    Default Re: Buckler & Bow: Reasoning

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    I see your jade archer and raise you one lightning warrior.
    :/ I meant mine as a decently balanced archer that at least has a chance at higher levels against magic users. Not something that is completely worthless in combat because it lacks a familiar and can't even specialize it's spellcasting. Take your garbage tier classes elsewhere please.

    EDIT:
    Hmph
    Last edited by gooddragon1; 2012-05-30 at 12:55 AM.
    There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.

  28. - Top - End - #58
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Lonely Tylenol's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2011

    Default Re: Buckler & Bow: Reasoning

    Quote Originally Posted by gooddragon1 View Post
    :/ I meant mine as a decently balanced archer that at least has a chance at higher levels against magic users. Not something that is completely worthless in combat because it lacks a familiar and can't even specialize it's spellcasting. Take your garbage tier classes elsewhere please.

    EDIT:
    Hmph
    I'll have you know that a familiar is great for role playing opportunities! Don't stifle my role play with your fussy numbers and munchkinry!
    Homebrew!
    5e: Expanded Inspiration Uses

    Spoiler: 3.5/P Stuff. Warning: OLD
    Show

  29. - Top - End - #59
    Troll in the Playground
     
    gooddragon1's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    In the playground

    Default Re: Buckler & Bow: Reasoning

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonely Tylenol View Post
    I'll have you know that a familiar is great for role playing opportunities! Don't stifle my role play with your fussy numbers and munchkinry!
    I know, can you imagine a class that voluntarily gives up the opportunity to have one? Madness I say. Perhaps even blasphemy. Probably not a country near Greece though...
    Last edited by gooddragon1; 2012-05-30 at 01:13 AM.
    There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.

  30. - Top - End - #60
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2010

    Default Re: Buckler & Bow: Reasoning

    After a bit more research into the issue, I must say that I have to change my stance on the subject.

    Determination: No AC to buckler when using a ranged weapon that requires two hands.

    Why:
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD, longbow
    You need at least two hands to use a bow,...
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD, Buckler
    ... In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you donít get the bucklerís AC bonus for the rest of the round.
    From what I can understand, you only use your 'off-hand' to draw and fire the weapon. You are not actually 'wielding' the bow in the off-hand. However, you are still 'using' the off-hand to fire the bow.

    Since "In any case" is specified in the buckler description, this supercedes any previous exceptions and explicitly states that the use of a weapon with the off-hand (ie, arm with buckler equipped) does not allow buckler AC to be used.


    I can still see why allowing the AC bonus would be fine, since the archer isn't really use his offhand that much with the draw and fire and could still block effectively.
    Last edited by Eldonauran; 2012-05-30 at 07:06 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •