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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2011

    Default Presenting the Marshal [3.P, PEACH]

    Before I actually post it, I wanted to add some things to avoid confusion and preempt the quick fix of just adding maneuvers: I'm redoing the core classes without adding ToB stuff (aside from adding maybe one maneuver here or there). Due to a change in philosophy, I am now remaking core classes with ToB. This is a combination of the what was previously posted and the warblade. But for skills, I am combining many of them in a homebrew campaign, the main one being rolling heal checks into the survival skill.

    I also want to thank other homebrewers that I may have... borrowed inspiration or abilities from. One I would like to name is T.G. Oskar for his thesis (and fixes as well, even if I don't completely agree with them).

    Now without further ado:
    The Marshal
    Spoiler
    Show

    Image by bmd247 on DA

    "An army is as strong as its weakest members. I turn them into heroes." -Seo Joohyun, General of the Yulong Empire

    HD: d12
    Skills: Acrobatics (DEX), Athletics (STR), Craft (INT), Deception (CHA), Gather Information (CHA), Handle Animal (CHA), Knowledge (Geography) (INT), Knowledge (Local) (INT), Knowledge (Nobility) (INT), Perception (WIS), Persuasion (CHA), Ride (DEX), Sense Motive (WIS), Stealth (DEX), and Swim (STR).
    Skill Points: 4+INT modifier

    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|
    Special
    |
    Man Known
    |
    Man Readied
    |
    Stances

    1st|
    +1
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +0
    |
    Battle Clarity, Imposing Presence
    |
    3
    |
    3
    |
    1

    2nd|
    +2
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +0
    |
    Combat Style, Uncanny Dodge
    |
    4
    |
    3
    |
    2

    3rd|
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    Mettle, Weapon Training
    |
    5
    |
    3
    |
    2

    4th|
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    Battle Orders, Bonus Feat, Fearless
    |
    5
    |
    4
    |
    2

    5th|
    +5
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    Armor Training, Weapon Adaptation
    |
    6
    |
    4
    |
    3

    6th|
    +6
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    Improved Style, Inspiring Presence
    |
    6
    |
    4
    |
    3

    7th|
    +7
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    Commanding Presence, Weapon Training
    |
    7
    |
    4
    |
    3

    8th|
    +8
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +2
    |
    Bonus Feat, Brutal Warrior
    |
    7
    |
    4
    |
    3

    9th|
    +9
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +3
    |
    Daunting Challenge, Improved Mettle
    |
    8
    |
    4
    |
    4

    10th|
    +10
    |
    +7
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    Improved Armor Training
    |
    8
    |
    5
    |
    4

    11th|
    +11
    |
    +7
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    Greater Style, Weapon Training
    |
    9
    |
    5
    |
    4

    12th|
    +12
    |
    +8
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |
    Bonus Feat, Deadly Threat
    |
    9
    |
    5
    |
    4

    13th|
    +13
    |
    +8
    |
    +8
    |
    +8
    |
    Conviction
    |
    10
    |
    5
    |
    4

    14th|
    +14
    |
    +9
    |
    +9
    |
    +4
    ||
    10
    |
    5
    |
    4

    15th|
    +15
    |
    +9
    |
    +9
    |
    +5
    |
    Armor Mastery, Weapon Training
    |
    11
    |
    6
    |
    5

    16th|
    +16
    |
    +10
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |
    Bonus Feat, Master Style
    |
    11
    |
    6
    |
    5

    17th|
    +17
    |
    +10
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |
    Weapon Mastery
    |
    12
    |
    6
    |
    5

    18th|
    +18
    |
    +11
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |
    Frightful Presence
    |
    12
    |
    6
    |
    5

    19th|
    +19
    |
    +11
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |
    Weapon Training
    |
    13
    |
    6
    |
    5

    20th|
    +20
    |
    +12
    |
    +12
    |
    +6
    |
    Bonus Feat, Stance Mastery
    |
    13
    |
    7
    |
    6
    [/table]

    Class Features:
    Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: The marshal is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as all armors (Light, Medium, Heavy) and all shields.

    Maneuvers Known: The marshal knows a number of maneuvers as shown on the table. The marshal knows maneuvers from the Diamond Mind. Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, White Raven, and any school of the marshal's choice that is not a class specific school.

    Maneuvers Readied: The marshal starts each encounter with the listed number of maneuvers readied. The marshal can refresh all maneuvers as a swift action at the end of his/her turn. The marshal can not have initiated a maneuver in the turn that he/she refreshes them.

    Stances Known: The marshal knows a number of stances as shown on the table. These stances can be from any school the marshal may select maneuvers from. Activating a stance is a swift action, and it stays activated until the marshal switches stances or falls unconscious. The marshal may only have one stance active at a time.

    Battle Clarity (Ex): Starting at 1st level, the marshal's training allows him to know when danger is imminent. The marshal may add his/her intelligence modifier to initiative checks.

    Imposing Presence (Ex): Starting at 1st level, the marshal's threatened range is treated as difficult terrain for all enemies.

    Combat Style (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, the marshal dedicates himself/herself to a method of combat. The marshal chooses a style of combat and, once chosen, may not alter the choice. The choices are:
    • Two-Weapon Style: The marshal gains the Two-Weapon Fighting feat.
    • Heavy Weapon Style: The marshal gains the Power Attack feat.
    • Shield Style: The marshal gains the Improved Shield Bash feat. In addition, the marshal may add his/her intelligence modifier to attacks while wielding a tower shield.
    • Einhander Style: The marshal gains the Combat Expertise feat.
    • Archery Style: The Marshal gains the Rapid Shot feat.


    Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a barbarian already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains Improved Uncanny Dodge instead.

    Mettle (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, anytime a marshal would be subjected to a spell or similar ability that allows for a partial effect on a successful fortitude save, the marshal receives no effect on a successful save.

    Weapon Training (Ex): The marshal is a master of weapons, but always has select weapons that he/she favors. At 3rd level and every four levels thereafter, the marshal selects a group of weapons below, gaining a bonus to damage rolls equal to his/her intelligence modifier with weapons of the selected group.
    • Axe: Battleaxe, Dwarven Waraxe, Greataxe, Handaxe, and Sickle.
    • Pick: Great Pick, Heavy Pick, Light Pick, and Scythe.
    • Sword, Heavy: Bastard Sword, Falchion, Fullblade, Greatsword, Longsword, and Katana.
    • Sword, Light: Dagger, Elven Faeblade, Rapier, Scimitar, Shortsword, Shuang Gou, and Wakizashi.
    • Archery: Greatbow, Longbow, Shortbow, and Composite Bows.
    • Crossbow: Hand Crossbow, Heavy Crossbow, Light Crossbow, and Repeating Crossbows.
    • Double: Dire Flail, Dwarven Urgosh, Gnome Hooked Hammer, Orc Double Axe, Quarterstaff, and Two-Bladed Sword
    • Linked: Flail, Heavy Flail, Kusarigama, Nunchaku, Snake Sword, Spiked Chain, and Whip.
    • Hammer: Dwarven Battle Hammer, Heavy Mace, Light Mace, Maul, Morningstar, and Warhammer.
    • Club: Club, Greatclub, Jutte, Sap, Tetsubo, and Tonfa.
    • Monk: Kama, Sai, Siangham, Shuriken, Steel Fan, and Unarmed Strike
    • Polearm: Glaive, Guisarme, Halberd, Naginata, and Ranseur
    • Spear: Lance, Longspear, Shortspear, Spear, and Trident.
    • Thrown: Bolas, Chakram, Dart, Dwarven Throwing Hammer, Fukimi Bari, Javelin, Light Hammer, Net, Sling, and Throwing Axe
    • Close: Bagh Nakh, Heavy Shield, Light Shield, Orc Battle-Claw, Punching Dagger, and Spiked Gauntlet


    Battle Orders (Ex): Starting at 4th level, whenever allies flank with the marshal, they may add his/her intelligence modifier in place of the normal +2 for flanking. In addition, allies are considered flanking with the marshal as long as they threaten the target and are not adjacent to the marshal.

    Bonus Feat: At 4th level and every four levels, the marshal may select a bonus fighter or tactical feat so long as he/she meets the prerequisites.

    Fearless (Ex): Starting at 4th level, the marshal is immune to fear effects, and instead gains a +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls against the source of the fear effect for the duration of the fear effect.

    Armor Training (Ex): Starting at 5th level, the marshal is no longer restrained by his/her armor. The armor check penalty if any armor worn by the marshal is reduced by one per five marshal levels, up to a maximum of 4 points of reduction at 20th level. In addition, the martial gains DR 5/adamantine while wearing heavy armor.

    Weapon Adaptation (Ex): The marshal is able to adapt his/her fighting styles to different weapons. Starting at 5th level, the marshal gains the benefit of any feat requiring selecting a specific weapon, such as weapon focus, to all the weapons of the weapon group, so long as it is the marshal has selected it as part of weapon training. This does not apply to weapon proficiency feats.

    Improved Style (Ex): At 6th level, the marshal improves in his/her chosen style as follows:
    • Two-Weapon Style: The penalty for fighting with two weapons is reduced by an additional 2, to a minimum of 0.
    • Heavy Weapon Style: Whenever the marshal succeeds on a bull rush or overrun attempt with a two-handed weapon, he/she may deal normal damage and knock the opponent prone.
    • Shield Style: The marshal deals double strength damage with each main hand attack while wielding a shield.
    • Einhander: If the marshal is wielding a single weapon in one hand, he/she deals double strength damage with each attack.
    • Archery Style: While wielding a bow, the marshal threatens a 30ft radius around him/her.


    Inspiring Presence (Ex): Starting at 6th level, whenever the marshal is in a stance that grants a bonus, allies within 30ft also receive the bonus. Whenever the marshal is in a stance that imposes a penalty on an enemy, all enemies within 30ft receive the penalty.

    Commanding Presence (Ex): Starting at 7th level, the marshal's mere presence inspires awe and fear in others. The marshal gains a bonus to persuasion and gather information checks equal to half marshal levels.

    Brutal Warrior (Ex): The marshal's strikes have a deadly force to them. Starting at 8th level, each weapon in any selected weapon group used by the marshal deals damage as though it were one size larger.

    Daunting Challenge (Ex): Starting at 9th level, the marshal is able to intimidate those of weak will. The marshal may, as a swift action, shout with such force that all foes with fewer hit dice within 60ft must make a will save or become shaken for a number of rounds equal to half marshal levels plus strength modifier. Foes already shaken become frightened, and those already frightened become panicked. The DC is equal to 10 plus half marshal levels plus strength modifier. Whether a creature succeeds or not, it can only be subjected to this ability once per encounter. This is a fear effect.

    Improved Mettle (Ex): Starting at 9th level, whenever the marshal would be subject to a partial effect on a successful fortitude saving throw instead takes no effect on a successful save, and a partial effect on a failed save.

    Improved Armor Training (Ex): Starting at 10th level, the marshal takes half the time to don and remove armor. In addition, the marshal gains DR 5/adamantine while wearing medium armor, and DR 10/adamantine while wearing heavy armor.

    Greater Style (Ex): At 11th level, the marshal's skill with their chosen style reaches the pinnacle of mortal men:
    • Two-Weapon Style: The marshal may now attack with both weapons for each attack the marshal has, including attacks of opportunity, attacks granted due to improved trip, and extra attacks granted by the haste spell. In addition, the marshal deals power attack damage with the off-hand weapon as well.
    • Heavy Weapon Style: Whenever the marshal misses an attack with a two-handed weapon, he/she still deals damage equal to his/her strength modifier.
    • Shield Style: Whenever the marshal succeeds with a shield bash, the target must make a fortitude save or be dazed for a number of rounds equal to the marshal's intelligence modifier. The DC is 10 plus half marshal levels plus intelligence modifier.
    • Einhander Style:
    • Archery Style:


    Deadly Threat (Ex): The marshal is able to exploit the weaknesses of his enemies. Starting at 12th level, the marshal increases the critical threat range of any weapon in selected weapon groups by one. This stacks with other effects, such as the keen enchantment, but is added last.

    Conviction (Ex): The marshal continues to fight on when lesser men would fall. Starting at 13th level, whenever the marshal would die due to hit point damage, he/she may instead continue fighting for a number of rounds equal to half marshal levels plus constitution modifier. Unless healed, the marshal dies at the end of this duration as normal.

    Armor Mastery (Ex): The marshal has better maneuverability in armor while being better protected by it. At 15th level, the marshal gains DR depending on the armor he/she wears. The marshal gains DR 5/adamantine in light armor, 10/adamantine in medium armor, and 15/adamantine in heavy armor. The marshal may also treat the maximum dexterity bonus of any armor worn as two higher, and the marshal no longer suffers any penalties to speed from wearing heavier armor.

    Master Style (Ex): At 16th level, the marshal's prowess exceeds mortal limitations:
    • Two-Weapon Style: The marshal gains a set of bonuses based on what type of weapons he/she is wielding. When wielding two slashing weapons, the target takes 2 bleed damage for each time it is hit with both weapons. When wielding two bludgeoning weapons, the marshal deals damage equal to his/her strength modifier on a missed attack. When wielding two piercing weapons, the marshal ignores an amount of damage reduction equal to his/her intelligence modifier. When wielding weapons that may deal different types of damage, then marshal must choose which affects to apply. Thus, the marshal may choose to apply the affects of slashing or piercing weapons with a dagger, but not both at the same time. Whereas, the marshal applies the affects of both bludgeoning and piercing weapons at the same time with a morningstar.
    • Heavy Weapon Style: Whenever the marshal hits with a two-handed weapon, he/she forces the target back 5ft and may choose to follow, so long as they do not exceed twice their movement speed in one round. In addition, if the target is forced into a wall or other obstacle they take an additional 2d6 damage.
    • Shield Style: If the martial leads a full attack with a successful shield bash, he/she may deal double damage with all other attacks on the target for one round.
    • Einhander Style:
    • Archery Style:


    Weapon Mastery (Ex): Starting at 17th level, the marshal is a master at using weapons effectively. Any weapon of selected weapon groups used by the marshal has its critical multiplier increased by one.

    Frightful Presence (Ex): Starting at 18th level, the marshal is a force to be reckoned with. Whenever the marshal succeeds on an attack, all enemies within 60ft must succeed on a will save or become fearful of the marshal for a number of rounds equal to half marshal levels plus strength modifier. Those with less hit dice than the marshal become frightened, and those with equal or greater hit dice become shaken. The DC is 10 plus half marshal levels plus strength modifier. Whether a creature succeeds or fails, it can only be subjected to this ability once per encounter. This is a fear effect.

    Stance Mastery (Ex): At 20th level, the marshal may activate the effects of two stances active simultaneously. He/she may use a swift action to change one of the stances or a move action to change both of the stances.
    Last edited by GunbladeKnight; 2013-02-20 at 03:50 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Beholder

    Join Date
    May 2012

    Default Re: Attempt at a Fighter Fix [3.5, PEACH]

    *Bulwark Stance the fighter makes the ground and air around him 'difficult terrain'? That's just silly. When a foe see the fighter from 20 feet away 'it's just like they are trying to walk across a snow drift'? How does that make sense?

    *Weapon Training A +1 bonus to a group of weapons looks pointless.

    *Fearless is ok...I don't like the idea that a fighter is immune to fear myself, but the ability is fine. But the fighter 'hates' fear and gets a bonus to attack the source of the fear...that's kinda silly.

    *Weapon Skill the downfall of most fighter fixes is right here...the huge paragraph of things to pick from per weapon. It sounds great when you make it, but this type of stuff is just a mess to keep track of during a game. It gets worse when you have to add this type of special abilities to feats and other combat modifiers.

    *Daunting Challenge Eh, it's ok, but why not just use the intimidation skill, as that is what it's for, instead of making a whole new ability.

    *Deflecting Stance is crazy. The fighter deflects spells somehow? And with a super high DC? A 5th level fighter could have a DC of 20, and it only gets worse from there. The idea that a fighter can just 'magically' deflect any spell is just too crazy.

    *Frightful Presence is simply not a useful ability. First, it has the 'all the time' problem. Where both the player and DM will need to remember to use the ability every time('oops we forgot again'). But worse, it's not so useful as it causes foes to run away.

    *Armor Mastery DR 20 is a bit much...and again is crazy and odd. That the armor now 'somehow' absorbs damage is a bit much.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2011

    Default Re: Attempt at a Fighter Fix [3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarrgon View Post
    *Bulwark Stance the fighter makes the ground and air around him 'difficult terrain'? That's just silly. When a foe see the fighter from 20 feet away 'it's just like they are trying to walk across a snow drift'? How does that make sense?
    I could tone it down to just within fighter threatened squares, but I thought it seemed to weak. The idea is that the fighter is just that intimidating that the enemies tread carefully around them.

    *Weapon Training A +1 bonus to a group of weapons looks pointless.
    A +1 bonus is not much, but also add to it weapon adaptability and other abilities they gain. I was thinking of having an increasing bonus, but there are plenty of other ways to up damage as well. Another idea was bonus to attack and extra damage dice.

    *Fearless is ok...I don't like the idea that a fighter is immune to fear myself, but the ability is fine. But the fighter 'hates' fear and gets a bonus to attack the source of the fear...that's kinda silly.
    I must admit that the crunch behind the ability is from T.G. Oskar's paladin homebrew, I just didn't add the fluff.

    *Weapon Skill the downfall of most fighter fixes is right here...the huge paragraph of things to pick from per weapon. It sounds great when you make it, but this type of stuff is just a mess to keep track of during a game. It gets worse when you have to add this type of special abilities to feats and other combat modifiers.
    Yes, it is extensive, but I wanted the fighter to have choices if he/she wants to focus on a single type of weapon or spread it out over other types. I'm debating whether to trim it down or not, and which I can trim. I still want to leave options for different weapon types.

    *Daunting Challenge Eh, it's ok, but why not just use the intimidation skill, as that is what it's for, instead of making a whole new ability.
    I didn't want it to be just intimidation (rolled into persuasion with diplomacy) vs level check. But either way is fine.

    *Deflecting Stance is crazy. The fighter deflects spells somehow? And with a super high DC? A 5th level fighter could have a DC of 20, and it only gets worse from there. The idea that a fighter can just 'magically' deflect any spell is just too crazy.
    You'll notice it is only vs. range touch attack and ray spells (think of it as the fighter deflects the ray with their weapon), which many will probably simply do save or die spells.
    EDIT: Also considering maybe base it of DEX so it is not quite as high?

    *Frightful Presence is simply not a useful ability. First, it has the 'all the time' problem. Where both the player and DM will need to remember to use the ability every time('oops we forgot again'). But worse, it's not so useful as it causes foes to run away.
    It only effects once, whether they succeed or not, so you do not need to constantly roll for it.

    *Armor Mastery DR 20 is a bit much...and again is crazy and odd. That the armor now 'somehow' absorbs damage is a bit much.
    It was originally 10, but with changes I am doing to the barbarian (DR = lvl) and paladin (DR 25/chaos at 20) and other similar classes, I didn't want to seem like they fall behind.
    Last edited by GunbladeKnight; 2012-05-29 at 01:01 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2011

    Default Re: Attempt at a Fighter Fix [3.5, PEACH]

    Double post.
    Last edited by GunbladeKnight; 2012-05-29 at 01:00 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Attempt at a Fighter Fix [3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarrgon View Post
    *Bulwark Stance the fighter makes the ground and air around him 'difficult terrain'? That's just silly. When a foe see the fighter from 20 feet away 'it's just like they are trying to walk across a snow drift'? How does that make sense?
    It makes as much sense as the knight's vigilance ability. The knight's Vigilance ability implies that the knight's combat skills are such that people are forced to tread carefully, thus turning the area that it threatens as "difficult terrain". Perhaps the 20 ft. range is a bit exaggerated, but keeping it to the weapon's threat range makes it fair (as it's already reasonable enough). In fact, after 10th level or so, you may claim that the Fighter's technique is such that you can make swift lunges that increase their threat range and effective difficult terrain by 5 ft. Note, now, that threat range is not a two-dimensional affair: if someone attempts to make an attack around 5 ft. higher than the character, you may land a hit on them; a reach weapon extends that to 10 ft., but with the same limitations. You can thus argue that you can create a "sphere" of vigilance based on your weapon's threat range. Note that, of course, such a tactic would be perfectly extraordinary.

    Spoiler
    Show
    *Fearless is ok...I don't like the idea that a fighter is immune to fear myself, but the ability is fine. But the fighter 'hates' fear and gets a bonus to attack the source of the fear...that's kinda silly.


    It's not silly if you consider that's what courage's all about. Who, after all, is the bravest person: the one who's immune to fear, or the one that strives forth despite its fear? The first loses on a very important instinct, the second overcomes it but still knows when it's good to fold and when it's not. Perhaps the fluff isn't the best, but consider that a scared person draws on adrenaline (which you may treat as that "impulse that doesn't let you give up" or any of that pep talk) and can overcome that source of fear by blocking it. They're no more scared of the rest of the people (so fear still remains an effective debuff), but they get resolve from it.

    Silly would be that the Fighter, who's supposed to be a BRAVE and strong martial master, falls victim to fear and can't do anything to overcome it. Fear immunity might be cheap, particularly at a specific level, but a minor boost to Will and a bonus that activates in case you fail does the work nicely; after all, some people learn how to overcome fear.

    *Weapon Skill the downfall of most fighter fixes is right here...the huge paragraph of things to pick from per weapon. It sounds great when you make it, but this type of stuff is just a mess to keep track of during a game. It gets worse when you have to add this type of special abilities to feats and other combat modifiers.
    *Deflecting Stance is crazy. The fighter deflects spells somehow? And with a super high DC? A 5th level fighter could have a DC of 20, and it only gets worse from there. The idea that a fighter can just 'magically' deflect any spell is just too crazy.
    Note by the level in which the ability is gained. 14. By that moment, if the fighter can't simply fight against spellcasters effectively, it's better left off.

    All three complaints, IMO, detail a slight problem I find with the perception about the Fighter: the need to make things believable for them, whereas with others you can willfully suspend disbelief. For a mage, the ability to negate magic entirely is no problem; for a binder, supernatural abilities can help to negate magic; yet, a fighter can't deal with magic because everything has to have a mundane explanation.

    By 10th level (arbitrary, of course, but it's a good point of measurement), there's little you can do with mundane solutions. You need some form of magic to work out, one that allows you to fly, or break (or lift!) huge boulders, or resist deadly energy attacks. Casters can get that through class features, and some non-casters might push that too. However, when it's the Fighter that you attempt to fix, suddenly disbelief kicks in: overcoming fear? Causing enemies to become wary of entering heedlessly into the Fighter's fray? Nonsense!

    Now, perhaps deflecting spells might seem like pushing it, but here's another tidbit: by 14th level, it's a little too late for that. In fact, note that it says "caster level checks": at 1st level, with Strength 18, a caster must make a check whose result exceeds 14 (aka, you need to roll a 13 or higher), but by 5th level it's a bit more manageable (let's say you add a +2 Str item, which boosts the DC by 1, so it's a result of 17 versus a d20+5 roll) and by 14th level almost laughable (+6 Str plus...let's say 3 boosts for a result of Str 27, which makes the DC 23, but the roll is d20+14, hence you need to roll a 9 or higher; while reasonable, the difficulty lowers with each passing level). This is not "extremely high", not by a mile: in fact, it ranges between 15 and 5, and by the time it comes online, it's already around 9-10, which is an actually reasonable roll. Note that it also affects only rays and ranged touch spells, which can eventually be deflected with the right (epic) feats.

    Perhaps if an ability that granted the skill to deflect arrows with a weapon (there's one for shields and one for unarmed strikes) was added first, then it would seem pretty natural, and a "boosted" version at 14th level would seem reasonable enough. I'd advise to suspend disbelief a bit and treat the Fighter as this "awe-inspiring warrior who can deflect the force of a spell through sheer determination and might" instead of someone who can't do anything past 6th level.

    *Armor Mastery DR 20 is a bit much...and again is crazy and odd. That the armor now 'somehow' absorbs damage is a bit much.
    Quite the contrary. While this damage reduction isn't weak, most forms of damage reduction gained by means of class features DO. The DR of the Barbarian barely reaches 6, the Monk's version is beaten by magic weapons, and the really worthwhile DR is granted through spells. Notice the trend?

    I will admit, though, that it's quite a bit. While you might justify why granting DR through armor is reasonable (golems have roughly the same DR bypassed by adamantine and earth elementals have about half the DR that can't be bypassed by anything short of Mountain Hammer and super-DR-punching abilities), the number is exaggerate. It's the combination of unbeatable DR and the number which really puts things off: DR 10/- compared to vanilla monsters is pretty decent, as nothing short of giants can deal a blow that can deal essentially 30 or more damage per blow, but DR 20/- can't be punched by most of the deadly monsters (fiends, dragons) and only easily bypassed by giants (whose damage ranges from 15 to 23 without adding weapon damage or Power Attack, when wielding a two-handed weapon). Either DR 10/- or DR 20/adamantine can make it worthwhile, as the latter makes the fighter resemble the golem in terms of damage resilience (you're so used to wear armor, you can absorb the impact a bit easier, relying on the armor to cover for the rest).

    Another thing is the point "with any kind of armor". That means that wearing padded armor or hide armor adds the same amount of DR as wearing full plate armor, which really stretches disbelief right to the break point. Naturally, heavy armor should be more efficient in terms of damage reduction than light armor. Something like DR 2/- (or DR 5/adamantine) for light, DR 5/- (or DR 10/adamantine) for medium, and DR 10/- (or DR 20/adamantine) for heavy will do fine as a capstone.

    --

    Having said that, I have other qualms with the revision. The big one, and one I find in most Fighter fixes, is that aside from combat, they can't do anything else. Sure, the Fighter should be the greatest martial combatant bar none, but it should do something else aside from fighting well. Options in combat are nice (which is why Weapon Skill is not bad), but it should have something to do outside of combat. While it has some added stuff (Perception/Listen & Spot, some Knowledge skills including Local, Persuasion/Diplomacy plus the persuasion uses of Bluff and Intimidate?, Acrobatics/Balance & Tumble), it still lacks a few others. For example, when dealing with an uncooperative door, can the Fighter do something? Aside from breaking the door (which requires a pretty hefty Strength check, one that will require something around Strength 40 to roll reliably), it can't do anything else. Sure, the Rogue and the Wizard might have their ways, and the game IS meant to be a team effort (something that's lost or twisted on some, though fortunately people here do remember that tidbit), but the Fighter should be capable of cooperating in case the Wizard somehow forgot to prepare Knock and Disintegrate and the Rogue broke the lockpick. The Warblade can cooperate with Mountain Hammer; without ToB, the Fighter can only count on cutting the door with an adamantine weapon and spend minutes trying to chip down the door's HP, which might be annoying to the rest of the party. Or attempt to bypass some large obstacle, such as a boulder blocking the pass: the Wizard can just lift it through Telekinesis, Levitate or any of Bigby's Hands, but aside from that, no one else but a Large character can, and the Large character might have some troubles. The Fighter could reliably do a feat of exceptional strength and lift the boulder by 10th level or higher (owing to their already formidable Strength) or even smash it with a single strike (or at least two well-struck strikes). Reducing rest requirements might also count, cutting needed rest time as it gains levels. Those things could be done by the Fighter and allow him (or her) to cooperate in combat, and allow it to achieve the Tier 3 mark ever so slightly. I wouldn't mind seeing Spell Resistance as well, given that they're meant to be a challenge to spellcasters (though spellcasters will have their way to bypass SR, it'll make them act a bit more tactically). The skills and the reduction to armor check penalty work a lot towards it, but it still could use something else.

    Another thing is the high Reflex save. I can understand it on the Ranger, and it might not seem wrong on the Barbarian, but the Fighter won't be the best when dealing with Reflexes. Sure, they might get some nice Dex if they specialize in archery, but good Reflex saves seem a bit off, considering that high Reflexes tend to belong mechanically to stealthy or lightly-armored classes (Rogue, Bard, Monk, Ranger, Scout, Ninja; note that the Spellthief and the Swashbuckler, despite being heavily armored, don't have high Reflex saves, and neither does the Beguiler).
    Retooler of D&D 3.5 (and 5e/Next) content. See here for more.
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  6. - Top - End - #6
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Attempt at a Fighter Fix [3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar View Post
    Now, perhaps deflecting spells might seem like pushing it, but here's another tidbit: by 14th level, it's a little too late for that. In fact, note that it says "caster level checks": at 1st level, with Strength 18, a caster must make a check whose result exceeds 14 (aka, you need to roll a 13 or higher), but by 5th level it's a bit more manageable (let's say you add a +2 Str item, which boosts the DC by 1, so it's a result of 17 versus a d20+5 roll) and by 14th level almost laughable (+6 Str plus...let's say 3 boosts for a result of Str 27, which makes the DC 23, but the roll is d20+14, hence you need to roll a 9 or higher; while reasonable, the difficulty lowers with each passing level). This is not "extremely high", not by a mile: in fact, it ranges between 15 and 5, and by the time it comes online, it's already around 9-10, which is an actually reasonable roll. Note that it also affects only rays and ranged touch spells, which can eventually be deflected with the right (epic) feats.

    Perhaps if an ability that granted the skill to deflect arrows with a weapon (there's one for shields and one for unarmed strikes) was added first, then it would seem pretty natural, and a "boosted" version at 14th level would seem reasonable enough. I'd advise to suspend disbelief a bit and treat the Fighter as this "awe-inspiring warrior who can deflect the force of a spell through sheer determination and might" instead of someone who can't do anything past 6th level.
    Hmm... would it be a good idea to add in arrow deflection on vigilant stance? Also: nerf bulwark stance to threat range?

    Having said that, I have other qualms with the revision. The big one, and one I find in most Fighter fixes, is that aside from combat, they can't do anything else. Sure, the Fighter should be the greatest martial combatant bar none, but it should do something else aside from fighting well. Options in combat are nice (which is why Weapon Skill is not bad), but it should have something to do outside of combat. While it has some added stuff (Perception/Listen & Spot, some Knowledge skills including Local, Persuasion/Diplomacy plus the persuasion uses of Bluff and Intimidate?, Acrobatics/Balance & Tumble), it still lacks a few others. For example, when dealing with an uncooperative door, can the Fighter do something? Aside from breaking the door (which requires a pretty hefty Strength check, one that will require something around Strength 40 to roll reliably), it can't do anything else. Sure, the Rogue and the Wizard might have their ways, and the game IS meant to be a team effort (something that's lost or twisted on some, though fortunately people here do remember that tidbit), but the Fighter should be capable of cooperating in case the Wizard somehow forgot to prepare Knock and Disintegrate and the Rogue broke the lockpick. The Warblade can cooperate with Mountain Hammer; without ToB, the Fighter can only count on cutting the door with an adamantine weapon and spend minutes trying to chip down the door's HP, which might be annoying to the rest of the party. Or attempt to bypass some large obstacle, such as a boulder blocking the pass: the Wizard can just lift it through Telekinesis, Levitate or any of Bigby's Hands, but aside from that, no one else but a Large character can, and the Large character might have some troubles. The Fighter could reliably do a feat of exceptional strength and lift the boulder by 10th level or higher (owing to their already formidable Strength) or even smash it with a single strike (or at least two well-struck strikes). Reducing rest requirements might also count, cutting needed rest time as it gains levels. Those things could be done by the Fighter and allow him (or her) to cooperate in combat, and allow it to achieve the Tier 3 mark ever so slightly. I wouldn't mind seeing Spell Resistance as well, given that they're meant to be a challenge to spellcasters (though spellcasters will have their way to bypass SR, it'll make them act a bit more tactically). The skills and the reduction to armor check penalty work a lot towards it, but it still could use something else.
    Here's a list of the skill changes:
    Spoiler
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    The following skills have been combined:

    Climb and Jump are now Athletics (STR)
    Balance and Tumble are now Acrobatics (DEX)
    Bluff and Disguise are now Deception (CHA)
    Spot, Listen, and Search are now Perception (WIS)
    Diplomacy and Intimidate are now Persuasion (CHA)
    Hide and Move Silently are now Stealth (DEX)
    Open Lock, Disable Device, and Sleight of Hand are now Thievery (DEX)
    Heal has been combined into Survival (WIS)
    Sense Motive and Gather Information are now Social (CHA)

    Characters receive a -2 penalty to all perception checks with each age category.

    Spellcraft has been removed. It now takes a Knowledge (Arcane) check for arcane based spells and effects, or a Knowledge (Religion) for divine based skills and effects.

    Fly (DEX) has been added. The penalty for being encumbered or armored applies. Creatures with a natural fly speed may take 10 even while performing difficult maneuvers or flying in strong winds. A good maneuverability grants a +2 bonus to Fly, and a perfect maneuverability grants a +5 bonus to Fly. Characters must make a DC10 Fly check in order to stay in the air while moving, providing they have some means of flight. It is a DC15 to hover with any maneuverability below good, or for every five rounds of hovering with good or better maneuverability.
    Fly is still being worked out so that I don't have to change monster stats for it.

    So they do have ways of dealing with social/roleplay encounters, as well as not being surprised. I don't want to tread on the rogue (and by extension, the ranger, monk, and bard homebrews I am working on).

    Another thing is the high Reflex save. I can understand it on the Ranger, and it might not seem wrong on the Barbarian, but the Fighter won't be the best when dealing with Reflexes. Sure, they might get some nice Dex if they specialize in archery, but good Reflex saves seem a bit off, considering that high Reflexes tend to belong mechanically to stealthy or lightly-armored classes (Rogue, Bard, Monk, Ranger, Scout, Ninja; note that the Spellthief and the Swashbuckler, despite being heavily armored, don't have high Reflex saves, and neither does the Beguiler).
    I wanted the fighter to have a 2nd good save so it does not feel like they got gypped in that department, and will didn't make as much sense for them.

    My concept of the fighter is viewing them as a master of weapons. Something like the gladiator champions, generals, even the samurai. Something above and beyond what a guardsman can do. I want their abilities to stay Extraordinary, but at the limits of it.

  7. - Top - End - #7
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    Default Re: Attempt at a Fighter Fix [3.5, PEACH]

    You, sir, are a deceiver. This is 3.P (also known as Pathfinder), not 3.5, as the thread title says.

    Fearless says it comes at 4th level in the table, but 3rd level in the text. 4th sounds better, since he gets plenty at 3rd already.

    Bulwark Stance is ridiculously powerful for its level. It would be better to start smaller and later on increase it to 30 ft.
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  8. - Top - End - #8
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Attempt at a Fighter Fix [3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    You, sir, are a deceiver. This is 3.P (also known as Pathfinder), not 3.5, as the thread title says.

    Fearless says it comes at 4th level in the table, but 3rd level in the text. 4th sounds better, since he gets plenty at 3rd already.

    Bulwark Stance is ridiculously powerful for its level. It would be better to start smaller and later on increase it to 30 ft.
    Thanks for the catch. I also had vigilant stance listed as 6th in the text. And yes, I may have taken some inspiration from Pathfinder. However, this is for use with 3.x supplements with some tweeking.


    Changed bulwark to be threatened squares and armor mastery to be based on type of armor worn. I still feel like 16th level, and maybe 11th, 15th, and 19th seem like they could use something. Maybe move weapon mastery around to cover one of them?

    EDIT: Also altered deflecting stance to go off Dex. Wondering if it would be fine at 15+level+dex then...
    Last edited by GunbladeKnight; 2012-05-29 at 08:12 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Attempt at a Fighter Fix [3.5, PEACH]

    Something you could add is "taking 10" on AoO . This makes sure that during a AoO the fighter won't critical fail. Also it would streamline all the AoO that he may get.

    A level increase of that ability could be that during actual battle he may "take 10" 1/encounter for every 5 Fighter levels he gains. (Edit: on attack rolls)

    One last thing I thought of giving a player of mine... is the option of taking a bonus feat. "Fighter's Toughness" Roll your hp normally for each level. If you have 3/4th of your levels in fighter (or a fighter prestige class) you gain the difference between what you rolled and the max die roll + con mod as a temp hp pool. This temp hp refreshes after every battle when you rest however magical healing never restores this value. If your fighter levels drop below 3/4th of your total levels then you gain half as many temp hp in this pool.

    I don't have it right now but that was the gist of it. Although sometimes when you roll a 10 you won't get much temp hp (con mod) if you ever roll a 1 you still gain (+con mod + 9 temp hp). If you just take the average then you still gain the temp hp
    Last edited by SSGoW; 2012-05-30 at 08:04 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Attempt at a Fighter Fix [3.5, PEACH]

    Did a massive overhaul of this class.

    Now has a dead level at 14th, could use some ideas.

    Trying to come up with an ability that lets allies add the marshal's int to their str/dex based skills. Needs a name and level.

    Need ideas for the unfinished combat styles.

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