A Magical World War, or What if Voldemort had won?

[Fjolnir]

Voldemort does resort to terrorism, that was essentially what mass muggle killings were...

[Avilan the Grey]

You may be able to rapid fire from an AK. Most civilians or cops can't. Handheld machine guns are extremely difficult for even trained troops to use, which is why the BAR and M14 were removed from service.

Now, as far as I understand it, it is only hard if you care for precision. An AK47 is just "point and spray" if you don't care about A) wasting ammunition and B) isn't all too careful about what or whom you might hit in the process.

This whole thing is basically just another Bodysnatcher - Alien Invasion scenario, and just like Zombie apocalypses I am sure the Pentagon has already planned for these. Just because they can.

You might be on to something there. Okay guys, if any of you ever discover magic, teach it to all of us so we can take over the world.

Heh. As someone who has played "let's outsmart the DM" a lot, this is familiar. Using conventional (for the setting) methods for unconventional means.

[Tyndmyr]

It first came up as a point on another vs thread I've been running, (Voldemort vs Vader) as a question of how many of Vader's 501st Storm Troopers would it take to put down the Death Eaters, assuming each side was allowed access to it's respective allies.

I dismissed it since the rules of the thread clearly state this was a 1v1 match, but it got me thinking: "Wizards against Storm Troopers? Don't make me laugh, they're outnumbered 10 to 1 and the their opponents have automatic weapons. I mean, the wizarding world could hardly take on mundane forces of Earth, let alone Star Wars."

I didn't bring it up in the thread because I didn't want to start a new argument, but that is now what this thread is for.

The Setup:

Assume Voldemort was victorious at the battle of Hogwarts. He and the Death Eaters are now firmly in control of wizarding in Britain, and subsequently manage to conquer the rest of Europe (Wizarding wise that is). The Death Eaters now feel its time they turned their attention to the Muggle world, and without the ministry enforcing secrecy regulations, attacks on Muggles have increased ten fold.

How is Voldemort likely to begin his conquest of the Muggle World?

Probably using the exact same tactics he used on both of his previous attempts at a rise to power. Intimidation, fear, kill those who oppose him. He's not one for subtlety or for playing the part of the hero.

How long before Muggle Governments begin to catch on?

Frankly, I'm shocked they hadn't already.

If it looks like things are headed towards a full scale showdown between Muggles and Wizards, who is likely to win?

Muggles. This is not even a question. Sniper rifle trumps Avada Kedavra every time. Unless you're buffed and ready for attack, you get instantly blown away from an attack from an unknown location a quarter of a mile away. Can't be shielded constantly.

And the wizarding world is amazingly unaware of their opponents abilities.

2) No talk of nuclear weapons. It's just silly, if I wanted a Wizards vs Nukes thread I would have started one. No, it's more interesting to consider how Muggle Governments would go about hunting down these infiltrators and combat them on muggle terms, and nuking civlian population centers to try and kill a minority of the population is just ridiculous.

Well, for all the talk of purebloods and junk...magic quite obviously is genetic. You have the ability to do it or not. IE, it's an easy test once you capture one. Even a child.

So, this really isn't much different than a nuke.

[CapnRedBeard]

Now, as far as I understand it, it is only hard if you care for precision. An AK47 is just "point and spray" if you don't care about A) wasting ammunition and B) isn't all too careful about what or whom you might hit in the process.

This whole thing is basically just another Bodysnatcher - Alien Invasion scenario, and just like Zombie apocalypses I am sure the Pentagon has already planned for these. Just because they can.



Heh. As someone who has played "let's outsmart the DM" a lot, this is familiar. Using conventional (for the setting) methods for unconventional means.

Exactly it's like telling people that they cannot possibly be accurate with a water pistol. I mean unless you are trained how can you possibly hope to hit something with a water pistol? WHAT? You move a finger as you point the away end at your target. That's the learning curve. Muggle tech...is easy and incredibly reliable.

How difficult is the internet for you? If you farted today in Japan and wished to tell me about it...how long would it take? If you wanted to send me a video of the fart...how long would that take?

[pendell]

Well, for all the talk of purebloods and junk...magic quite obviously is genetic. You have the ability to do it or not. IE, it's an easy test once you capture one. Even a child.

Here's a nasty thought -- if it's genetic, how hard would it be to breed the ability into the entire human population? Make everyone a wizard?

It gets more fun if we start dealing with retroviruses or what not that could alter those genetic markers. Give Voldemort a shot and suddenly he's a muggle. Fate worse than death?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Tyndmyr]

Here's a nasty thought -- if it's genetic, how hard would it be to breed the ability into the entire human population? Make everyone a wizard?

It gets more fun if we start dealing with retroviruses or what not that could alter those genetic markers. Give Voldemort a shot and suddenly he's a muggle. Fate worse than death?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Well, we're looking at complete gene sequencing being commercially available for under $1000 soon(at which point, I, and several friends, all intend to take advantage of it). If magic was in fact in the DNA, then yeah, we could retrovirus it in.

I like this alternate future.

[Aotrs Commander]

Well, we're looking at complete gene sequencing being commercially available for under $1000 soon(at which point, I, and several friends, all intend to take advantage of it). If magic was in fact in the DNA, then yeah, we could retrovirus it in.

I like this alternate future.

Of course, we are talking about 1990s technology, so it'd be a looong way off in that instance...



Random Fun (sic) Fact: I'd have been in Harry's year at school if I had the right sort of magic... (Probably as well for Wizarding Britian and the world as a whole I wasn't, though...)

[Tyndmyr]

Of course, we are talking about 1990s technology, so it'd be a looong way off in that instance...



Random Fun (sic) Fact: I'd have been in Harry's year at school if I had the right sort of magic... (Probably as well for Wizarding Britian and the world as a whole I wasn't, though...)

Well, the tech wasn't so far off, it was just really expensive. We had sequencing ability then, and if something this big was around to use it on...it would gain a lot of attention.

[Fragenstein]

Random Fun (sic) Fact: I'd have been in Harry's year at school if I had the right sort of magic... (Probably as well for Wizarding Britian and the world as a whole I wasn't, though...)

Fun(er) Fact: I've always felt that Slytherin probably threw the best parties. They seem most likely to brew their own intoxicants and sneak in hookers. Sort of the underage Delta House of Hogwarts.

[Forum Explorer]

You may be able to rapid fire from an AK. Most civilians or cops can't. Handheld machine guns are extremely difficult for even trained troops to use, which is why the BAR and M14 were removed from service. As for crew-served-weapons, which are more feasible, they aren't all that portable, and take time to get into position.

Note that I never said soldiers would have problems. It was the idea that "any muggle can pick up a gun" that I have objections to.

I think it's more that a child can pick up a gun and shoot someone. As in the possibility exists that they can pull it off. Or you can train a child to take the shot and they can. The wizard's don't have that advantage as they need to want to kill someone to pull off the killing curse not just accept it.

Fun(er) Fact: I've always felt that Slytherin probably threw the best parties. They seem most likely to brew their own intoxicants and sneak in hookers. Sort of the underage Delta House of Hogwarts.

Nice. But I think it goes to Hufflepuffs. They seem like the sort to work hard and party all night. Like Oil riggers home from work.

[Fragenstein]

Nice. But I think it goes to Hufflepuffs. They seem like the sort to work hard and party all night. Like Oil riggers home from work.

Yeah, I was thinking along the same lines as well. But their motto is "Those patient Hufflepuffs are true and unafraid of toil." They value hard work, patience, justice and loyalty.

So... goody-goody.

Get that tool Malfoy out of a leadership position and I'm sure Dean Wormer Snape is going to have to stay on his toes to keep them in line.

[ChaosLord29]

Yeah, I was thinking along the same lines as well. But their motto is "Those patient Hufflepuffs are true and unafraid of toil." They value hard work, patience, justice and loyalty.

So... goody-goody.

Get that tool Malfoy out of a leadership position and I'm sure Dean Wormer Snape is going to have to stay on his toes to keep them in line.

I'm with Fragenstein on this one. I was Slytherin Prefect of my University's Harry Potter Fanclub. Our event nights were always the best.

I think it breaks down like so

Slytherins: Movers and shakers at the party; network to get invites out to all the cool people and ensure that booze is provided to all underage/shy individuals.

Gryffindors: Keg stands, stage dives, wild and crazy stunts; Courage is the kindest word for Stupidity don't you think?

Hufflepuffs: Filler; The bodies who stand around drinking and chatting, or dance somewhat awkwardly, meanwhile making everyone else feel like they're being admired. The party would not be complete without them.

Ravenclaws: "I had to study . . . What drinks had the highest alcohol content! Let's get wasted!" The true wild-things; a minority to be sure, but get them out of their shell and they'll make everyone else feel sober in comparison.

[Avilan the Grey]

Ravenclaws: "I had to study . . . What drinks had the highest alcohol content! Let's get wasted!" The true wild-things; a minority to be sure, but get them out of their shell and they'll make everyone else feel sober in comparison.

Heh, for some reason I think of that line from TBBT: "There comes a time when a girl is tired of waking up on a strange futon with a bunch of guys she doesn't know"

[Gnoman]

Now, as far as I understand it, it is only hard if you care for precision. An AK47 is just "point and spray" if you don't care about A) wasting ammunition and B) isn't all too careful about what or whom you might hit in the process.

That's a HUGE skill in and of itself, and one which very few children will have the upper-body strength to pull off. A full-grown man, with practice, can keep an AK or M-16 from becoming an anti-aricraft weapon after the first round or two, but it takes a very real degree of strength to do so. A pistol's even worse.

[Agrippa]

From what I've gathered online Ravenclaw is the chief candidate for the title of party house. Even the Gryfindors are more sedate than them.

[Aotrs Commander]

That's a HUGE skill in and of itself, and one which very few children will have the upper-body strength to pull off. A full-grown man, with practice, can keep an AK or M-16 from becoming an anti-aricraft weapon after the first round or two, but it takes a very real degree of strength to do so. A pistol's even worse.

The sheer number of irregular and guerilla forces (some of them waaay too young) armed with AKs would seem to argue against that. Now, I'll grant you, such irregular troops are not up to the standard of professional soldiers trained in modern combat, head for head, but then again, neither are Wizards (seeing as how they have less knowledge of muggles than three-years olds and have to be told what "guns" are.) Wizards don't seem to do "cover" much either, but that's more a failing of sci-fi/fantasy in general (see: Star Wars especially the Clone Wars...)

[pendell]

The sheer number of irregular and guerilla forces (some of them waaay too young) armed with AKs would seem to argue against that. Now, I'll grant you, such irregular troops are not up to the standard of professional soldiers trained in modern combat, head for head, but then again, neither are Wizards (seeing as how they have less knowledge of muggles than three-years olds and have to be told what "guns" are.) Wizards don't seem to do "cover" much either, but that's more a failing of sci-fi/fantasy in general (see: Star Wars especially the Clone Wars...)

Cynicism suggests that child soldiers are more useful as a distraction or as a decoy than as a fighting soldier. Child soldiers are probably all very well if you just need some bodies to look intimidating or when you need some young and stupid people to clear a minefield by running through it (happened during the Iran-Iraq war), but if you want to do house-to-house clearing, you need grown adults.

The Council on Foreign Relations answers the question this way:

Are Child Soldiers effective?


Yes. Trusting, vulnerable, and often intimidated, children can easily be manipulated, experts say. In combat, children can be daring and tenacious, particularly when under the influence of drugs—a common practice—or when compelled by political or religious zeal. Child units can greatly add to confusion on battlefields, slowing opposing forces' progress. Children have also been used as scouts, messengers, minesweepers, bomb-makers, and suicide bombers. Child units are also effectively used as advance troops in ambush attacks.

"Greatly slowing an opponent's progress" in essence means to provide the enemy with a lot of targets to kill before they advance, essentially a speed bump made with human bodies. Same with "advance troops" -- that's providing a wall of bodies to shield the real soldiers. The other tasks are all minor tasks that don't require the ability to kick down a door and physically fight. But if you really want to fight and win, you still need grown adults.

I frankly find the subject distasteful. Regardless of how old a wizard has to be to be effective, they are still a vanishingly small minority of humans, and a smaller minority will be able to use a killing curse, and an even smaller minority will actually be effective soldiers with them. As Vaarsuvius would say, "being proficient with a bow is not the same thing as being good with it".

By contrast, you can make a mediocre soldier out of any average 17-year-old with a few weeks training, and some of them will be excellent. So I think Muggles have an advantage in that they have a much larger recruitment pool. Muggle militia may not be at the level of wizards, but they can still be pretty lethal and they can be trained fairly quickly.

But I think it's beside the point. I'm trying to remember the quote, but ISTR something along the lines of it's pretty close to an even chance if an armed muggle takes on a wizard. But if a wizard is fighting a muggle head-to-head, the wizard's already doing something wrong. A wizard war would probably be an intelligence war, one in which massive armies and nuclear weapons et al would be out of place.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Gnoman]

The sheer number of irregular and guerilla forces (some of them waaay too young) armed with AKs would seem to argue against that. Now, I'll grant you, such irregular troops are not up to the standard of professional soldiers trained in modern combat, head for head, but then again, neither are Wizards (seeing as how they have less knowledge of muggles than three-years olds and have to be told what "guns" are.) Wizards don't seem to do "cover" much either, but that's more a failing of sci-fi/fantasy in general (see: Star Wars especially the Clone Wars...)

Typically, irregulars and guerillas start off with a small core of people with combat experience (veterans of previous wars, remnants of a defeated army, or foreign advisors) that then provide training to the pure civilian recruits. Thus, the sort of training that is needed is given to them in some amount. Even then, it's rare to find a force of that nature that can stand up to an equal-sized force of proper soldiers. The nastiness of guerillas is that they can strike anywhere and are extremely difficult to find.

[Forum Explorer]

I think everyone is missing the point here. What we are getting at is that a child solider is a very real possibility for a muggle. In comparison most wizards are stuck with relatively non-lethal spells as you have to have a lot of hate and desire to cause pain to use the nastier curses. So when it comes to fighting technology has the advantage as pretty much anyone can use it while the opposing side is limited in the extreme. (Likely why Voldemort was such a threat in the first place. It's much easier to take over when you have nearly everyone who can actually fight.)

[Nekura]

As wonderfull as the world of Harry Potter is this question becomes to hard due to plot holes and bad writing especially in the latter books. Wizards have the power to subtly take over but not the knowledge they are simply to ignorant of the muggles. Yes riddle grew up muggle but that was in a poor orphanage that wouldn't have much technology and was years ago. While the death eaters used infiltration tatics on other wizards thats not what they did with muggles. They had giants destroy a town and blew up a large heavily populated bridge. The only reason they weren't exposed to the muggles then was the ministry was still working to keep the secret. Even then and correct me if I am wrong but didn't they use a horrible cover story? I seem to remember they blamed the town on a hurricain which is just plain stupid. You would have to mind wipe the world, if parts of england report a hurricain destroyed a town weather centers across the globe that detected no such storm would be wondering whats going on.

Bullets vs. wizards is no contest. Even if there is a shield that could potentially stop a single bullet or banishing spell that could send it away it all comes down to speed. Spells take a lot of concentration, time for wand movements, and for most people and spells incantation. And whats all this talk about dodging bullets? People can't dodge bullets and nowhere is it said or hinted at that wizards would be able to. As to the accuarcy of guns or M-16s that

Originally Posted by Gnoman
That's a HUGE skill in and of itself, and one which very few children will have the upper-body strength to pull off. A full-grown man, with practice, can keep an AK or M-16 from becoming an anti-aricraft weapon after the first round or two, but it takes a very real degree of strength to do so. A pistol's even worse.

well have you ever fired a gun? I have, I don't know about the AK but the M-16 does not require a great deal of strength or much practice at all to avoid having its small amount of recoil causing the gun to jerk up and "beome an anti-aircraft weapon". It doesn't take much practice to become fairly accurate with either as apposed to cannon evidence where grown adults who have been casting spells for years are not very accurate even in close combat and spells are able to be dodged when they would actually hit unlike bullets.

The only real threat and tactics Voldemort actually used against muggles would be the dementors and to a lesser degree giants. Again how did the giants go unnoticed? can you portkey or sidealong apperate a giant? Basilisks are too rare and wizards can't control dragons well enough to be much help.

While in hinden areas they are somewhat safe wizards stick out too much in the real world. And while guns are heavily restricted in england the rest of the world is much different. Then you also have to take into account the OP siad Voldemort only conqured wizarding england so wizards in other parts of the world also have to be looked at which again while we have fanfics that like to play around with that idea we don't have enough facts from cannon.

[Forum Explorer]

I think dodging bullets is referring to just moving erratically to make yourself a harder target and taking cover in a firefight. Which does make a big difference.

[Xondoure]

Can someone please explain to me in what situation would this ever turn into a gun fight? I just don't see that scenario ever happening. Wizards would just lock themselves in their unplottable pocket dimensions and strike tactically. That's their go to strategy. What defenses could we possibly have against that?

[Tvtyrant]

Can someone please explain to me in what situation would this ever turn into a gun fight? I just don't see that scenario ever happening. Wizards would just lock themselves in their unplottable pocket dimensions and strike tactically. That's their go to strategy. What defenses could we possibly have against that?

By what exactly do you mean by "Strike tactically?"

[Xondoure]

By what exactly do you mean by "Strike tactically?"

By strike tactically, I mean mind controlling the heads of state, sabotaging power grids, and other fun surprises.

Wizards don't need every kid with magic talent to start fighting. All they need is one guy who can take down our electrical system, and cripple our oil lines. And they will think of this before they think of lining everyone up to shoot each other civil war style. Voldemort didn't take over the ministry by declaring himself king of the wizarding world. He let them think he wasn't even around while he infiltrated every level of government. And that's the same thing he did last time he came to power. Why would this possibly change against muggles when it will work even better there because they don't even know magic exists? And don't give me a few good wizards spill the beans. If it was that easy to unveil the masquerade it would have happened a long time ago. Say what you will about the ministry, that leg of law enforcement knows how to handle things.

[Nekura]

By strike tactically, I mean mind controlling the heads of state, sabotaging power grids, and other fun surprises.

Wizards don't need every kid with magic talent to start fighting. All they need is one guy who can take down our electrical system, and cripple our oil lines. And they will think of this before they think of lining everyone up to shoot each other civil war style. Voldemort didn't take over the ministry by declaring himself king of the wizarding world. He let them think he wasn't even around while he infiltrated every level of government. And that's the same thing he did last time he came to power. Why would this possibly change against muggles when it will work even better there because they don't even know magic exists? And don't give me a few good wizards spill the beans. If it was that easy to unveil the masquerade it would have happened a long time ago. Say what you will about the ministry, that leg of law enforcement knows how to handle things.

That's all well and good but they don't know about power grids. Mr. Weasley has a job working with muggle items that have been enchanted in such a way to give away the secret of magic and spends all his free time trying and failing to understand muggles. Voldemort didn't care about the masquerade. He had giants smash towns and he blew up bridges. When taking into account how clueless wizards are the story falls apart as there is no way for them to have remained secret so long and there is no way muggles would have let them treat them like they do. As for infiltrating every level of the ministry that just shows how stupid the whole thing was. Pure blood bigots held a lot of power in the ministry he could have legally taken over easily without going to war. A few deaths here, a few accidents there, maybe a few bribed votes and he's won. But no he and his death eaters went around slaughtering muggles letting the ministry know something is up. Then went to random wizards to "recruit" them and killed them if they resisted. He could have put Malfoy or someone up as a puppet Minister before the death eaters became known. Just look at the power Fudge had tossing people into Azkaban with no trial and no cause. Taking over Hogwarts stripping Dumbledore of his positions, appointing anyone he felt like to any made up position of authority. Yes wizards with those powers and intelligence who are not let by someone as insane as Voldemort would have a much easier time taking over.

[Xondoure]

Except that's clearly not true. If the purebloods had the power to seize control of the government they would have done it with or without voldemort. By the seventh book there's a puppet ministry and the war is basically over. All that was left was hunting down what remained of the order of the phoenix. Voldemort is efficient. His complete takeover of the wizarding world took three years. So no, the average wizard knows nothing about muggles. But you can be sure as hell the high level ministry people do. (Arthur wasn't high level. His job wasn't even that related to the masquerade. It was basically messing with a few practical jokes people like his sons would cause.)

I'm talking about the same ministry officials who spun a giant attack into a hurricane, and made people believe it. To make it clear how easy it is all they have to do is imperious the prime minister or the president and have them explain exactly what would need to be done to cripple the non magical world and allow it to be taken over.

[The Glyphstone]

Except that's clearly not true. If the purebloods had the power to seize control of the government they would have done it with or without voldemort. By the seventh book there's a puppet ministry and the war is basically over. All that was left was hunting down what remained of the order of the phoenix. Voldemort is efficient. His complete takeover of the wizarding world took three years. So no, the average wizard knows nothing about muggles. But you can be sure as hell the high level ministry people do. (Arthur wasn't high level. His job wasn't even that related to the masquerade. It was basically messing with a few practical jokes people like his sons would cause.)

I'm talking about the same ministry officials who spun a giant attack into a hurricane, and made people believe it. To make it clear how easy it is all they have to do is imperious the prime minister or the president and have them explain exactly what would need to be done to cripple the non magical world and allow it to be taken over.

I think you're giving politicians too much credit. While anyone who gets to the head-of-state seat is going to be smarter than the average bear, they probably wouldn't know a great deal more than said average bear as to where such weak points would be, mainly because those points are pretty obvious. The most a President or Prime Minister could do is give up, say, nuclear launch codes.

[Johel]

Except that's clearly not true. If the purebloods had the power to seize control of the government they would have done it with or without voldemort.

Well... to be perfectly honest, Lucius and the other pureblood HAD a merry good time when Voldy wasn't around.
After all, they hailed from wealthy and influent families.
Enough to just get away with a "I was mind-controlled" after the first war.
And to then still occupy position of power while flaunting around a rethoric that was pretty close to what Voldy was advocating.

Sure, they didn't had the power to do all they wanted in plain sight.
But they still had a great deal of impunity and the ressources to abuse it.
And all of this without having to risk their skins in duels or battles.
The only true obstacles were a few individuals like Dumbeldore but even him could not oppose them systematically.

In comparison, the Voldemort Method involves going to risking your life on a daily basis just to maintain your political power.
And making mad gambits to increase it a little bit.
It was litterally ruling at the point of a wand, with 3/4 of the wizards hostile to his rule and half of the rest only following out of fear.
At best, they obeyed him without enthousiasm or initiative.
At worst, they secretly plotted againt him.

-----------------------------------------

So, assuming Voldy is Voldy, yeah, Muggles win.
There's just too many of us, not enough of wizards.

Take this as an exemple :
If 10.000 humans die for every wizard killed in battle... it would still not be enough for the wizards.
After having lost 200 of their own, the wizards would decide that it might be easier to just rebel against Voldy.
Meanwhile, 2 millions humans died... and the death rate barely moved.

[Selrahc]

After having lost 200 of their own, the wizards would decide that it might be easier to just rebel against Voldy.
Meanwhile, 2 millions humans died... and the death rate barely moved.

2 million deaths is higher than the combined casualties suffered by Britain, America and France during WW2. Don't say it's insignificant.

[Murska]

2 million deaths is higher than the combined casualties suffered by Britain, America and France during WW2. Don't say it's insignificant.

Well, it's insignificant in that it wouldn't really affect the capacity of the human species to wage war in any meaningful way.