A Magical World War, or What if Voldemort had won?

[Johel]

2 million deaths is higher than the combined casualties suffered by Britain, America and France during WW2. Don't say it's insignificant.

See the answer of Murska.

Humanity is 6 billions people
Crude birth rate : 19,5 / 1000 = 117.000.000 births per year
Crude death rate : 8,2 / 1000 = 49.200.000 deaths per year
Growth rate : 11,3 / 1000

Having 2 millions people die per year will barely affect our growth rate.
Sure, I agree it is tragic and all..
But if we are fighting to avoid being enslaved or exterminated, I bet you can easily spare those 2 millions to trick wizards into ambushes.

With 200 dead wizards who actively tried to kill humans, you got the equivalent of a full promotion of Hogwarts being butchered.

Now put that into perspective :

Let's assume the majority of Voldy's supporters are :
Slytherins in England (1/4 of 6.000)
Other, less numerous wizards outside England (1/10 of 6.000)
That's roughly 2.100 Wizards who are trully loyal to Voldy for various reasons.
That's it, they might not like the Dark Lord but at least they like his propaganda about killing the mudbloods or enslaving the muggles.

This is around 1.400 adults.
Accordingly, most of the wizards who will happily kill muggles are going to be from these people.
And so they are going to suffer most of the casualties when humans get lucky and wizards get cocky.

The most hard-core, pro-pure blood, anti-muggles wizards get killed like flyes, losing 1/7 of their adults in the first YEAR of open warfare.
While the less enthousiastic supporters of Voldy and his silent opponents survive.
Muggles, while suffering as a society, are still thriving as a species.
To the point where they are waging a defensive war, waiting to be slaugthered until, out of a dozen attacks, one or two wizards get killed.
The newly graduated wizards would be walking in the shoes of the deceased, litterally.
And after 7 years of unsuccessful war, Voldy would have to rely on a crew of children to maintain his autority and wage his war.
At that point, it is very possible that 20 or so Wizards will just think "screw this, let's gang on the bastard."

[Selrahc]

Well, it's insignificant in that it wouldn't really affect the capacity of the human species to wage war in any meaningful way.

Well, again. It's enough to utterly annihilate the current day armed forces of Britain, France and the United States to a man.

It's not going to eliminate humanity, but it is going to cause a heavy dent militarily. Enough to say... win a war.

[Murska]

If we say that the 2 million casualties are spread perfectly randomly to the entire population of planet Earth, it's unlikely that any one armed force is affected enough to be utterly destroyed. Unless someone like Liechtenstein gets really unlucky.

[Selrahc]

If we say that the 2 million casualties are spread perfectly randomly to the entire population of planet Earth, it's unlikely that any one armed force is affected enough to be utterly destroyed. Unless someone like Liechtenstein gets really unlucky.

But why would it be spread perfectly randomly around the Earth?

[Xondoure]

Yeah see I'm still not seeing your argument. If wizards get into a situation where their life is at risk they're doing it wrong. And you made an excellent point about nuclear launch codes. Muggles can't afford to use them, who says wizards won't? Now that alone would rack up way more than 2 million deaths. But this isn't really about deaths. It's about rule. Wizards have all the tools they need to strike against muggles. Muggles aren't even able to locate them on a map.

[Nekura]

Except that's clearly not true. If the purebloods had the power to seize control of the government they would have done it with or without voldemort. By the seventh book there's a puppet ministry and the war is basically over. All that was left was hunting down what remained of the order of the phoenix. Voldemort is efficient. His complete takeover of the wizarding world took three years. So no, the average wizard knows nothing about muggles. But you can be sure as hell the high level ministry people do. (Arthur wasn't high level. His job wasn't even that related to the masquerade. It was basically messing with a few practical jokes people like his sons would cause.)

I'm talking about the same ministry officials who spun a giant attack into a hurricane, and made people believe it. To make it clear how easy it is all they have to do is imperious the prime minister or the president and have them explain exactly what would need to be done to cripple the non magical world and allow it to be taken over.

As I had already said before England reporting a hurricane that destroyed a town and people across the globe knowing without a doubt there was no storm does not work. Even the people in the town would know it didn't happen what with everything dry and no water damage. The secret only worked because JKR said it did all the while all details from cannon paint a picture that it could not possible work. As entertaining as the books were there were to many inconsistencies. I agreed that wizards could be devastating with their powers and the right tactics but that there were too many examples of them not bothering to use them like that against muggles. You are too fixated on the opposite side of the inconsistencies. Did the death eaters quickly take over the ministry and make a puppet government in the second war? Yes. But that was more Malfoy's doing having Fudge basically in his pocket from the start. Add to that it wasn't from infiltrating and using magic to control him it was being pureblood and using political power to take over the government. It wasn't Voldemort's plan but even though he is insane he was smart enough to take it when Malfoy had practically gift raped the ministry for him. However Voldemort is ultimately in charge and we have seen his plans for muggles are not subtle.

[Murska]

But why would it be spread perfectly randomly around the Earth?

Why would it be targeted solely amongst the militaries of the US, Britain and France? The original message was talking about wizards managing to kill that many through their terror tactics, which include siccing giants on towns and such. Points pretty squarely to killing civilians to me, even though they'd probably mainly be in Britain.

If the wizards are dumb enough to let ordinary people realize there's a war going on, it's going to be almost impossible for them to win simply because they'd have to control so ridiculously many people to do so. Even a small underground resistance movement would outnumber all wizards on the continent. Every loss the wizards take is one they cannot afford.

On the other hand, nobody believes in magic at the moment. It would be easy for wizards to take over the world de facto by infiltrating and mind-controlling their way through every important organization on the planet. If they're smart enough to do so.

EDIT: @^
What you're saying about the implausibility of the hurricane explanation should just underline the sheer power the wizards can bring to bear in manipulation, mind control and subversion, right?

[Xondoure]

What murska said.

The only inconsistency is that it breaks your suspension of disbelief such a thing is possible. And yet the wizarding world pulled it off. Following this universe's rules that means the masquerade is very very good. If we're throwing the setting out the window this discussion loses meaning. Which is something the other side brought up when we got all "collective geek minds take over the world with magic."

[Ravens_cry]

Eh, I think just both sides work on it. That makes slightly more sense then.
In fact, given how ignorant wizards are of the Muggle world, it's probably mostly the mundanes who make it work.
Look at Mr. Weasely. The guy should be fired for how ignorant he is, but instead he seems as competent as anyone else is, and the man is pretty extracurricular about his interest in Muggles.
Also, Voldemort is not efficient. Oh, he brings the Death Eaters together, he is a fine demagogue, but he drinks the kool-aid, arrogant to the core.
He basically can not conceive of a Mudblood stopping his plans, let alone a Muggle.
That is why he would fail.
Since he can not conceive failure, he can not plan for failure.

[Xondoure]

Under the lack of a nose and red snake eyes lies the same school boy that was capable of charming the entire world into thinking of him as a saint while he set a basilisk loose on the school's residents. Within his own world he's a master of deception. Yes he's arrogant. But that doesn't automatically make him stupid. Unless you can point to a scenario in which his arrogance will endanger his cause beyond "he reveals the wizarding world and makes it so muggles can locate wizards because he doesn't think he can do anything about it" I don't see how his arrogance is relevant. Because he really wouldn't ever do the above.

[Ravens_cry]

The man can't kill a child who lives a significant part of the year with three morons who hate him.
The man deserves to fail.

[Xondoure]

The man can't kill a child who lives a significant part of the year with three morons who hate him.
The man deserves to fail.

The man can't kill a child that's protected by the strongest magic in existence because he's so arrogant that he thinks his own magic can overcome it and has to in order to prove his own worth. Harry was, and has always been a special case.

[Ravens_cry]

The man can't kill a child that's protected by the strongest magic in existence because he's so arrogant that he thinks his own magic can overcome it and has to in order to prove his own worth. Harry was, and has always been a special case.

Which just shows how arrogant the man is. He can't consider semi-mundane solutions like . . . charm up some gold, and hire a Muggle to do it.

[Xondoure]

Which just shows how arrogant the man is. He can't consider semi-mundane solutions like . . . charm up some gold, and hire a Muggle to do it.

Sure he can. He was even aware of the very simple solution of letting someone else do it. But there's a dangerous balance he plays in his rule of fear, and Harry had to be an example for the rest of the wizarding world that nothing was stronger than him.

Muggles get no such breaks.

[Ravens_cry]

Sure he can. He was even aware of the very simple solution of letting someone else do it. But there's a dangerous balance he plays in his rule of fear, and Harry had to be an example for the rest of the wizarding world that nothing was stronger than him.

Muggles get no such breaks.

The he has some pretty muddled priorities. Have the kid killed, potentially bad rap with some other Death Eaters but it gets the job done and the Prophesy is broken. Try pounding at the worlds strongest magic over and over, failing in front of other Death Eaters several times, and well, like they say, insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
Also, the Killing Curse is a pretty pathetic spell. Sure, if it hits, it kills you, but it can be dodged. Try dodging a bullet at those ranges.

[Fjolnir]

The other thing about Harry Potter is that Voldy wants to do it HIMSELF, he gets really annoyed when other go after Harry once he's back because he seriously only sees him as a threat due to a prophecy that he doesn't know all the details of.

[Ravens_cry]

The other thing about Harry Potter is that Voldy wants to do it HIMSELF, he gets really annoyed when other go after Harry once he's back because he seriously only sees him as a threat due to a prophecy that he doesn't know all the details of.

He tried several times, and failed, horribly, in front of his minions. Even his book bound simulacrum failed.
As galling as it may be for ones ego, a good leader delegates.

[Xondoure]

The he has some pretty muddled priorities. Have the kid killed, potentially bad rap with some other Death Eaters but it gets the job done and the Prophesy is broken. Try pounding at the worlds strongest magic over and over, failing in front of other Death Eaters several times, and well, like they say, insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
Also, the Killing Curse is a pretty pathetic spell. Sure, if it hits, it kills you, but it can be dodged. Try dodging a bullet at those ranges.

Right, as has been pointed out Voldemort didn't have the whole prophecy. All he knew was that if he defeated Harry he would become invincible. That's why he had to be the one to do it in his mind.

[Ravens_cry]

Right, as has been pointed out Voldemort didn't have the whole prophecy. All he knew was that if he defeated Harry he would become invincible. That's why he had to be the one to do it in his mind.

So that's two kids he has to get killed. TWO. If I remember correctly, Neville was the other option from the information he had.

[Xondoure]

So that's two kids he has to get killed. TWO. If I remember correctly, Neville was the other option from the information he had.

Uh... there were two options for kids he has to get killed. Once he picked he picked.

[Ravens_cry]

Uh... there were two options for kids he has to get killed. Once he picked he picked.

Why not have both killed? Better safe than sorry.

[Fjolnir]

I agree that he should have "killed the spare" as well but in this situation, he made the decision he made out of greed and a desire for immortality.

[Ravens_cry]

I agree that he should have "killed the spare" as well but in this situation, he made the decision he made out of greed and a desire for immortality.

That's a pretty big blind spot, which is pretty much my point.
I don't know how hard it is to make one, I don't believe the books say, but the man has an army of minions.
Surely making his own philosophers stone isn't out of the question?

[Xondoure]

That's a pretty big blind spot, which is pretty much my point.
I don't know how hard it is to make one, I don't believe the books say, but the man has an army of minions.
Surely making his own philosophers stone isn't out of the question?

He was already immortal. And he didn't like the idea of a philosopher's stone because he would need to be near it nigh constantly. Killing Harry would have made him invincible.

[Ravens_cry]

He was already immortal. And he didn't like the idea of a philosopher's stone because he would need to be near it nigh constantly. Killing Harry would have made him invincible.

Ah, I suppose the old phrase "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" doesn't occur to most omnicidal megalomaniac psychopaths.

[Nekura]

What murska said.

The only inconsistency is that it breaks your suspension of disbelief such a thing is possible. And yet the wizarding world pulled it off. Following this universe's rules that means the masquerade is very very good. If we're throwing the setting out the window this discussion loses meaning. Which is something the other side brought up when we got all "collective geek minds take over the world with magic."

You forgot the part where them pulling it off ignores the stated abilities of the spell in the setting as well as their stated actions to cover it up.

Under the lack of a nose and red snake eyes lies the same school boy that was capable of charming the entire world into thinking of him as a saint while he set a basilisk loose on the school's residents. Within his own world he's a master of deception. Yes he's arrogant. But that doesn't automatically make him stupid. Unless you can point to a scenario in which his arrogance will endanger his cause beyond "he reveals the wizarding world and makes it so muggles can locate wizards because he doesn't think he can do anything about it" I don't see how his arrogance is relevant. Because he really wouldn't ever do the above.

Chaber of Secrets The diary's main goal should have been to drain all of Ginny's life so the horcrux could gain a body. But his arrogance had him setting the basilisk to kill muggleborns time after time even after it wasn't killing them which let people know something was going on ultimately leading to his failure.

[Xondoure]

You forgot the part where them pulling it off ignores the stated abilities of the spell in the setting as well as their stated actions to cover it up.



Chaber of Secrets The diary's main goal should have been to drain all of Ginny's life so the horcrux could gain a body. But his arrogance had him setting the basilisk to kill muggleborns time after time even after it wasn't killing them which let people know something was going on ultimately leading to his failure.

They only used one spell now? Obliviate has its uses but I'm sure more than that is used to keep the muggle world out of the loop.

And the diary was the mark of a younger Riddle who wanted to be recognized as Slytherin's heir. So he made a horcrux that wasn't used only as a safety net but also as a weapon. Which was unheard of because no one had ever made more than one.

Yes it failed, but Lucius wasn't even supposed to have let it loose at the time, so that was more fallout from being dead than anything else.

[Avilan the Grey]

The thing is that we can only go on what we know, and what we know is contradictory but in general speaks for a Muggle victory:

1. Wizards control forces muggles can only dream of.

2. The masquerade have been holding for centuries, with only a very few muggles clued in (the royal families, presidents, premier ministers etc).

3. The masquerade is not written in a way that makes sense, with conflicting ideas that should make the concept impossible.

4. Wizards have stopped investigating or using technology somewhere around the turn of the last century. Even the most dedicated of them don't know what a subway train is, or how cars really work, or even mundane things like what toys are for.
(Older wizards seems to be TOTALLY clueless, like not knowing the difference between a summer dress and a wizard's robe).

5. The (potential) wizard leadership is heavily fragmented with strong tensions below the surface, all held together by idol worship and plain terror.

6. The wizard leader in question is extremely arrogant, cruel, flamboyant and lacks any kind of restraint, especially when angered.

7. The wizard leader in question is just as ignorant about the modern muggle world as everyone else.

I am sure there are more things we can bring to the table.

Also, is it just me or is it only the power trio of kids that really have a clue about modern society? Both Harry and Hermione grew up with muggles and Ron grew up with them, so to speak... How about the others? I distinctly remember things from the first books such as British wizard kids not knowing what Soccer was, for example...

[Xondoure]

Ron didn't know about soccer cause he's a pureblood. He was educated at age eleven. And Dumbledore remarks how he has a scar the exact shape of the london underground. That and the night bus suggest most wizards know exactly as much about the muggle world as pleases them.

[Avilan the Grey]

Ron didn't know about soccer cause he's a pureblood. He was educated at age eleven. And Dumbledore remarks how he has a scar the exact shape of the london underground. That and the night bus suggest most wizards know exactly as much about the muggle world as pleases them.

See point 3.

Seriously, I love the books, but that masquerade would fall apart in a fortnight, if not quicker. Rowling just don't treat it serious enough.